What would you have done

[TMF]

[quote name="RED333" post="1168582" timestamp="1405380428"][b]Even though this guy had a ball bat and Greg had a gun could Greg have repelled deadly force?[/b] Not from the car as he could drive away. Just glad things turned out OK for all involved.[/quote] Depending on the time of day/year, you ain't driving anywhere quickly in downtown Gatlinburg. You are pretty much trapped in traffic. Surprised there weren't any cops around. Every time I go to Gatlinburg there are cops on nearly every street corner. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TMF]

[quote name="midtennchip" post="1168615" timestamp="1405385684"]Agreed with others. He had the vehicle as protection and, I am assuming, an aggressor who probably would have trouble standing up and fighting. Driving away (even as the aggressor is swinging) is the smart move. There undoubtedly would be people who would have a hard time believing that shooting was necessary.[/quote] Take into consideration that driving away wasn't an option due to traffic and the lack of side streets to turn on. Anyone who has been in peak traffic in Gatlinburg knows what I'm talking about. At those intersections you're gonna be stuck for awhile. Also take into consideration that people aren't just worried about their own safety. If I had encountered this idiot I would have found it amusing. Probably would have been on the phone with the police with the quickness. However, if my wife and kids were in the vehicle, we are talking about a different story entirely. I can deal with getting hit with a bat by a weak fatty in a hover round. My wife and children can't. Windows aren't made of armor. So consider that the situation may be the victim being trapped in his vehicle with no escape, in fear of great bodily harm for his young children and wife. I realize that the law says death or great bodily injury. Having been in the military I default to "life, limb or eyesight". I consider eyesight to be in the category of great bodily injury. If a man intends to smash out my windows with my two year old little girl on the other side of that window, I will not hesitate to end his existence on this earth. Stuff like this is never black and white. There is a possibility that deadly force would have been justified if the idiot on the scooter took it to the next level. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited July 17, 2014 by TMF

[DaveTN]

Even though this guy had a ball bat and Greg had a gun could Greg have repelled deadly force?

Would a reasonable person think Greg was in danger of death or great bodily harm? No, he would have gone to prison.

The guy might have beat the bejesus out of the car, but how was your son in danger? Anyone that thinks you don’t have a duty to drive away is kidding themselves.

[Q-tip]

Nobody has mentioned this, but in court I imagine the height of the vehicle would come into play. It would be very difficult for a person in a wheelchair to injure someone in an F-250, but a Corolla would put them at eye level, especially dangerous if traffic isn't moving.

[TMF]

[quote name="Q-tip" post="1169351" timestamp="1405598488"]Nobody has mentioned this, but in court I imagine the height of the vehicle would come into play. It would be very difficult for a person in a wheelchair to injure someone in an F-250, but a Corolla would put them at eye level, especially dangerous if traffic isn't moving.[/quote] Until they stand up. Lotta folks in wheelchairs who can walk just fine. Seeing someone in a wheelchair armed with a bat should be no different than someone on two legs. I'm not just going to assume they can't walk. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JAB]

Depending on the time of day/year, you ain't driving anywhere quickly in downtown Gatlinburg. You are pretty much trapped in traffic. Surprised there weren't any cops around. Every time I go to Gatlinburg there are cops on nearly every street corner. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Take into consideration that driving away wasn't an option due to traffic and the lack of side streets to turn on. Anyone who has been in peak traffic in Gatlinburg knows what I'm talking about. At those intersections you're gonna be stuck for awhile. Also take into consideration that people aren't just worried about their own safety. If I had encountered this idiot I would have found it amusing. Probably would have been on the phone with the police with the quickness. However, if my wife and kids were in the vehicle, we are talking about a different story entirely. I can deal with getting hit with a bat by a weak fatty in a hover round. My wife and children can't. Windows aren't made of armor. So consider that the situation may be the victim being trapped in his vehicle with no escape, in fear of great bodily harm for his young children and wife. I realize that the law says death or great bodily injury. Having been in the military I default to "life, limb or eyesight". I consider eyesight to be in the category of great bodily injury. If a man intends to smash out my windows with my two year old little girl on the other side of that window, I will not hesitate to end his existence on this earth. Stuff like this is never black and white. There is a possibility that deadly force would have been justified if the idiot on the scooter took it to the next level. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Until they stand up. Lotta folks in wheelchairs who can walk just fine. Seeing someone in a wheelchair armed with a bat should be no different than someone on two legs. I'm not just going to assume they can't walk. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Glad to see that at least one other person on here has actually been in Gatlinburg when traffic is heavy, realizes that using a power chair doesn't mean a person can't stand and understands what I am talking about.

[JAB]

Would a reasonable person think Greg was in danger of death or great bodily harm? No, he would have gone to prison.

The guy might have beat the bejesus out of the car, but how was your son in danger? Anyone that thinks you don’t have a duty to drive away is kidding themselves.

 

See the links I posted, above.  In that case, the driver was in his car while a seventy-something year old man was standing next to his car, completely unarmed.  The driver (who was also in his seventies) claims that the other man was trying to choke him but the driver could still have simply driven away.  Instead, he shot and killed his alleged assailant, was found 'not guilty' and did not go to prison.  So, while a different jury might find differently and Greg, in this case, might have gone to prison if he had responded with deadly force, there is at least one, similar case where that certainly was not the outcome.  In fact, it is my opinion (and only that - and I am not a lawyer) that the would-be assailant in the OP posed a greater threat than a seventy-something year old, unarmed man.  Remember, there is no duty to retreat in TN and the assumption of a threat of death or serious, bodily injury when attacked in your car is much the same as when attacked in your home.

 

As for your second statement asking how the driver was in danger, do you believe that car windows can't be broken by a baseball bat?  A person driving a car is hardly enclosed in an armored personnel carrier.  If the car is sitting still, stuck in traffic and unable to drive away, I would say that the protection that car provides could be more of an illusion of protection than actual protection.

 

Further consider that a baseball bat, by Tennessee state law, is considered to be a deadly weapon.  In fact, since the change in knife laws on July 1 that now allow anyone to carry any length or type of knife, clubs (such as a baseball bat) are now pretty much the only hand-held type of weapons identified in 39-17-1307 as weapons that are expressly illegal to carry in Tennessee for which there is no permit to act as a defense to the charge of 'intent to go armed.'

 

So, wheelchair or not, the OP's son was being threatened by an individual who was:

 

1.  Threatening to attack him in his car, where the assumption of justifiable self defense applies, according to state law and

2.  Carrying and threatening the driver (and any, other occupants of the vehicle) with an object that, according to state law, is an illegal weapon for which there is no permit to carry

 

So, could the individual have actually caused harm to the occupants of the car from his wheelchair?  Who knows?  I do think those who are completely discounting the possibility are in error.  One would hope, however, that rather than conjecture as to whether or not the attacker might or might not have been able to cause injury, a person would be viewed as guilty or not guilty under the law.  So, according to the law, was the person in the power chair threatening the occupants in the car with a weapon?  According to state law (39-17-1307), yes - and an illegally carried weapon, at that.  So, then, could the person in the power chair have posed a threat of death or serious, bodily injury under the law?  Well, as state law identifies a club such as a baseball bat as an illegally carried weapon and as the person in the power chair was clearly threatening the driver with that weapon, I don't see how it could be viewed otherwise.

 

I will say, again, that if one had the opportunity to drive away in such a situation then that is what one should do.  However, I will also say that if the baseball bat wielding nutjob actually began attacking the car and the driver in such a case were to shoot the baseball bat wielding nutjob, wheelchair or not, and if I were on the jury then the best they would get would be a hung jury as I would not go along with a 'guilty' verdict.

Edited July 17, 2014 by JAB

[chances R]

Stuck in traffic........one can still get out of the car. Is it the 'manly' thing to do, so what? Sheet metal damage vs. court defense expense? Not hard to figure out. Remember the qualifiers for justification of deadly force..Proximity and ability. Duty of retreat, NO. But ego and common sense aswell as consequences/aftermath are realities. As mentioned, every situation is different but it is good to give some thought and discussion to different circumstances.

[Hershmeister]

No one has considered just disconnecting the battery to his chair and immobilizing him 😎

[battleop]

My youngest son [35] just called me to thank me again for giving him a concealed carry class for his birthday.
 
He told me that he was driving through Gatlinburg when a guy in a motorized wheelchair came flying across the street, against the light, right in front of him. Greg was just able to stop with this guy inches away from his front bumper. With this the guy yells "You need to how to f&%" drive. Greg rolls the window down and told him "He needs to learn what color to use to cross the street". With this the guy reaches over his shoulder and grabs a ball bat out of his backpack and starts coming around Greg's  car to the drivers side while swinging the bat in the air. With this Greg yells " I am armed". With that the guy in the wheelchair went his way. 
 
I realize that if he had to have shot this guy he would have had "pardon the pun" one strike against him in court.
 
Even though this guy had a ball bat and Greg had a gun could Greg have repelled deadly force?

I would have left and called the cops to report the crazy guy with a bat. He may win in court but it would be a expensive victory.

[Jonnin]

Stuff happens, of course, but a little paranoia is a good thing.   There *are* people who try to get hit so they can sue you -- and will step right out in front of a moving car or other similar scams.   So the guy may have been mad that he was not hit.  You should remind you son to maintain good situational awareness to prevent legit accidents (kid runs out in street, or someone who is just a moron, etc) as well as fake accidents.  It sounds like he did well here and was able to stop in time, but still a reminder might be in order. 

 

- yelling back is pointless.  Don't bother.  Just smile and ignore it until it goes away.  Well, not ignore, you should keep an eye on the idiot, but don't get into it with him.  As the old saying goes... idiots bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.  If he attacks when you ignore him, well that puts any witnesses in your favor...  but if you escalate the encounter... you are partly to blame.

 

- if for some reason such a person did attack, armed with a club, yelling that you are armed and putting a stop to it verbally is a good resolution.  Driving off is an acceptable solution if it goes beyond yelling and hand waving.  You do NOT want to be in court explaining how you were "in fear of your life" from a cripple with a club while you were in a car with a gun. 

 

- also ask what he would have done if the guy pulled a gun instead of a club.   Just think about it... replay the incident and what if a little helps to be prepared next time.  These sudden, random encounters are exactly what we hope to be prepared for, but the truth is, things get ugly so fast its hard to react in time.   I know if it had been me, the sheer "duh, whatthefff???"  factor of seeing a guy in a wheelchair go on the offensive would have had greatly slowed my reaction.  Its a great scenario to replay mentally a few times to help for next time.

 

So, recap, what would i have done?  Nodded and smiled until he was out of my way.  If he had attacked anyway, driven off.  If he had had a gun, I probably would have been too slow to handle it, being honest here.

[TMF]

Also keep in mind at those crosswalks in Gatlinburg, vehicles are supposed to yield to pedestrians. The guy may have been right to be upset if the crosswalk was being blown through. Of course, that doesn't excuse threatening someone with a deadly weapon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bersaguy]

The draw of fudge, t shirts and pancakes Is irresistable

LOL...........I don't know about the T-shirts or the pan cakes but back years ago when wife was still alive it was nothing for one of use to get a buzz for some great fudge but Chattanooga was closer and we would pile in the custom van and in about 2 hours be on top of Look out Mountain in a fudge shop buying  5-6 lbs of fudge and then driving back to Nashville. Even in the dead of Winter if the erge hit we were off to Choo Choo town for fudge.............. :rofl:  :rofl: 

[JWinTN]

The proper response would have been, "I'm sorry, sir, I didn't see you." Nothing wrong with common courtesy, even when you're in the right. Or say nothing at all. Then there's no motorized batboy to contend with. 

 

As a rule, and especially when armed, never do anything to escalate even what appears to be a minor situation. Shelve your pride and be nice. 

 

When do you stop being nice? When your inner Dalton tells you it's time to stop being nice.

[peejman]

Also keep in mind at those crosswalks in Gatlinburg all intersections everywhere, whether marked formally as a crosswalk or not, vehicles are supposed to yield to pedestrians. The guy may have been right to be upset if the crosswalk was being blown through. Of course, that doesn't excuse threatening someone with a deadly weapon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

FTFY.    :)

 

 

Under Tennessee law, pedestrians have the right of way at all intersections and driveways. However, pedestrians must act responsibly, using pedestrian signals and sidewalks where they are available. When crossing the road at any point other than a marked crosswalk or unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, a pedestrian has a statutory duty to yield the right of way to all vehicles on the roadway. It is the duty of pedestrians to look before starting across a highway, and in the exercise of reasonable care for their own safety, to keep a timely lookout for approaching motor vehicle traffic. On roadways where there is no sidewalk, pedestrians should always walk facing traffic.  http://www.tdot.state.tn.us/bikeped/pedestrianlaws.htm

 

But it also says this...
 

No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impossible for the driver to yield.

 

Edited July 25, 2014 by peejman

[TMF]

[quote name="peejman" post="1171939" timestamp="1406308975"]FTFY. :) But it also says this... [/quote] Negative, I was referring to the crosswalks which are randomly located along the strip, not at intersections. There are only one or two road intersections along that strip, but there are several dozen crosswalks. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tnguy]

[background=#f7f7f7]all intersections everywhere, whether marked formally as a crosswalk or not[/background][background=#f7f7f7], vehicles are supposed to yield to pedestrians.[/background]

 
 

When crossing the road at any point other than a marked crosswalk or unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, a pedestrian has a statutory duty to yield the right of way to all vehicles on the roadway

 
So which is it? Edited July 25, 2014 by tnguy

[DaveTN]

So which is it?

Both
http://www.tdot.state.tn.us/bikeped/pedestrianlaws.htm

[Guest kingarmory]

Those little crappy cable locks that you get with new guns are really good for immobilizing wheelchairs and scooters, just sayin'.  One of the lead bitches with Bloomberg's MAIG group was in a wheelchair and literally started pulling/pushing me (right in front of the police no less) for saying stuff that blew her/their precious worldview out of the water.  Next time they're in town I'm going to keep one of those cable locks in my pocket, if that bitch so much as lays a hand on me she's gonna be wherever she's at for awhile waiting on someone to bring some bolt cutters :rofl:

Edited July 26, 2014 by kingarmory

[tnguy]

Both
http://www.tdot.state.tn.us/bikeped/pedestrianlaws.htm

Could you be a little more specific? That's a wall of text and the most relevant thing I saw at the very top was simply the second quote he made (which states that pedestrians should yield to traffic in unmarked intersections).

[Oh Shoot]

Could you be a little more specific? That's a wall of text and the most relevant thing I saw at the very top was simply the second quote he made (which states that pedestrians should yield to traffic in unmarked intersections).

 

Nonetheless, a pedestrian jaywalking doesn't give you the license to execute him with your car. ;)

 

- OS

[peejman]

Negative, I was referring to the crosswalks which are randomly located along the strip, not at intersections. There are only one or two road intersections along that strip, but there are several dozen crosswalks.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My understanding from the OP was that this did happen at an intersection. But yes, there are a bunch of crosswalks not at intersections.

Could you be a little more specific? That's a wall of text and the most relevant thing I saw at the very top was simply the second quote he made (which states that pedestrians should yield to traffic in unmarked intersections).

The law states all intersections are effectively crosswalks whether they're marked or not and cars must yield to pedestrians. Then it says if the pedestrian is jay walking, the responsibility is on them. Edited July 26, 2014 by peejman

[DaveTN]

Could you be a little more specific? That's a wall of text and the most relevant thing I saw at the very top was simply the second quote he made (which states that pedestrians should yield to traffic in unmarked intersections).

Sure, that wall of text says that it is violation for a pedestrian to cross except at crosswalks; and it is a violation for you to mow them down while they are engaged in their own violation.

[gregintenn]

If needed, isn't a car a more effective weapon than a handgun?

[tnguy]

Indeed, one cannot simply mow down pedestrians (unless you're really really sure no one is looking ;) ) but the question is who is to yield and two contradictory statements were offered, the first a "FTFY" to TMF's statement, the second one apparently backed by law. I was simply pointing out the contradiction.