CMMG...Why, oh, why did I listen to Outpost Armory?

[DaveTN]

Just to be clear I wasn't speaking directly at your post in regards to returning, repairing, etc.

I stand by my comment that I think it's foolish to not at least test fire a firearm. As well as the subsequent comment(s) that for some reason gun owners have some kind of sense of entitlement. I've worked retail for 15 years from shoe stores, cell phones, to general merchandise, to firearms. Firearms customers are some of the worst in regards to a sense of entitlement. Especially in the internet age where people can shop amazon, budsgunshop, eBay, and people expect you to bend over backwards to try to accommodate them.

Then start your own business. You can call it “SOLD AS IS”. Who knows; it may be a hit.

[Hozzie]

Then start your own business. You can call it “SOLD AS IS”. Who knows; it may be a hit.

Goes both ways Dave. Let someone start a business where you can bring things back after 12 months if there is an issue and guarantee you will fix or give them their money back. You can call it "I won't be here for long". Both extremes are ridiculous notions.


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[Luke E.]

I think the story of the first rifle and the story of the second rifle are being combined again as well as the addition of the OP trying to return something which he never stated trying to do. All he seems to want is a functioning rifle and until he carries his still un fired rifle to Outpost to show them the problem none of us, including the OP, will know how they'll choose to handle it. I tend to have faith that Outpost will see an un fired rifle that is missing a part and find some way to make it right rather than washing their hands of it and sending him down the road.
And again, as for the first rifle, we have no idea as to the time that elapsed between purchase and him realizing that the sights were off somehow and just reading that first paragraph gives me the impression that there wasn't such a long time between purchase and test fire as there was on this second rifle.

[DaveTN]

Goes both ways Dave. Let someone start a business where you can bring things back after 12 months if there is an issue and guarantee you will fix or give them their money back. You can call it "I won't be here for long". Both extremes are ridiculous notions.


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Read my post #24. As I said I doubt OA will take it back, but they might ship it for him. S&W would send me a prepaid shipping label, will CMMG do that? I don’t know but it won’t hurt to ask.

I was commenting on his “customers and sense of entitlement” statement. Sounds like he needs to find a career other than retail sales.

We have three or four forum dealers that I have seen take care of any problem they were made aware of.

[orientalexpress]

Read my post #24. As I said I doubt OA will take it back, but they might ship it for him. S&W would send me a prepaid shipping label, will CMMG do that? I don’t know but it won’t hurt to ask.

I was commenting on his “customers and sense of entitlement” statement. Sounds like he needs to find a career other than retail sales.

We have three or four forum dealers that I have seen take care of any problem they were made aware of.

Maybe you're right Dave but my interest in firearms and actual enjoyment for my job outweighs the dislike for the 1% of you jack wagons out there.

[hipower]

Just to be clear I wasn't speaking directly at your post in regards to returning, repairing, etc.

I stand by my comment that I think it's foolish to not at least test fire a firearm. As well as the subsequent comment(s) that for some reason gun owners have some kind of sense of entitlement. I've worked retail for 15 years from shoe stores, cell phones, to general merchandise, to firearms. Firearms customers are some of the worst in regards to a sense of entitlement. Especially in the internet age where people can shop amazon, budsgunshop, eBay, and people expect you to bend over backwards to try to accommodate them.

I don't think either of us looks at it the same way, and I have a background in retail as well. Also owned and ran a business for 14 years.

But here...I think we just need to agree to disagree.

[E4 No More]

That's your prerogative but I think it's stupid for you to wait 8+ months to shoot something and expect the store to take of something that far down the road. Maybe I'm in the minority but despite what we're all taught to think the customer is not always right.

I think that you should work on your reading comprehension skills before calling someone else's actions "stupid" because nowhere did I say that I thought the store was responsible for the manufacturer's crappy product.

[E4 No More]

 I wasn't aware that making sure to fire a rifle within a certain amount of time was a matter of personal responsibility much less a personal responsibility that takes priority over work, family, etc.. Most of the men and women on TGO LOVE to shoot and spend time at the range or field so i'm going to go out on a limb and assume that leaving the rifle marinating in the safe for 8 months wouldn't have been his move of choice if more important responsibilities hadn't gotten in the way. 

 Another thing is that the OP has not mentioned Outpost nor CMMG giving him a problem about whether it's been 1 day, 8 months or 2yrs since he bought it so i'm thinking his frustration is stemming from being pushed off on the manufacturer on the first rifle and/or having an issue with the 2nd rifle. Who knows, he may carry it in there Monday and Outpost tell him that they'd be happy to get it taken care or for him. 

 I can certainly imagine that there are a great number of cases of "buyers remorse" and "my wife wasn't quite as receptive to a new gun as I thought she'd be" and that sucks for the shop and the salesman that may have be paid on commission but a xx day return policy would fix anything like that from happening outside of that time frame. The difference here is that the OP wasn't trying to "return" or "trade" the first CMMG rifle that had sight issues, he just wanted it looked at and fixed and felt whomever he spoke with at Outpost should have had someone look at it rather than brushing him off and telling him that he'd have to send it to CMMG himself. He didn't trade the rifle until after attempting to have the problem remedied. I have seen what you speak of first hand though, A friend of mine had that happen from time to time when he had his FFL and there were a couple of times, after some questioning, the buyer let something slip that made it very evident that he had gone home and found it cheaper on Buds or some other online wholesaler and decided that he would return it claiming it was defective and then turn around and order the gun online to save $30 or 40 bucks. One guy was so dumb that 3 days after returning the "defective" pistol (which my buddy offered to replace with another out of the case) he came in to get FFL info faxed over to have the very same pistol transferred at my buddy's shop.. Needless to say, this guy was the kind of douche you are talking about and he was refused service.

 Also, the OP stated that he "took it in the butt to trade it in on a SIG" which tells me that he either indeed told the shop that he traded it to that something was wrong or he wouldn't have had to "take it in the butt" (hypothetically I HOPE), or he traded it for the Sig at Outpost which they would have known of the issue since that's the reason he brought it in.

 I certainly am not and will never argue that FACT that there ARE tons of rotten A'holes that will try to manipulate the system to their benefit even if it's wrong, unethical and a show or poor character but i'm inclined to argue against life being busy and not having time to make it to the range in a timely manner makes the OP one of the aforementioned "rotten A'holes"

No buyer's remorse here and neither was my wife unhappy. She was with me when I purchased it after all. She and I make major purchase decisions together.

[E4 No More]

I don't think he is saying he wouldn't be pissed.  He is simply saying that it's hard to hold the retailer responsible and asking a lot to expect them to just take it back.  I actually think all of you are taking the extreme position on both sides.  I don't think the OP was doing much more than venting his frustration.  There are two different issues in his OP.  The first was the AR-15 issue when he had to trade and the second was finding out he had an issue with the 9mm after 8 months.  No mention of how long between when he bought the first one and when he took it back.

 

So, with all of that said, I think both of you are correct on some of each point.  Here is my simple view on what I would expect.

 

For the first issue based on what is presented, I would have at least expected Outpost to offer to send the rifle back to CMMG and try to assist the OP with getting it fixed.  I don't expect them to take it in return as every gun shop you see (for the most part) has a policy of any warranty issues need to go through the manufacturer.  On the other hand, most dealers I know will send it to the manufacturer for you as part of their customer service.  If they didn't offer this, then that is a negative on the dealer for me.  Now, if they did offer and the only option the OP wanted was a complete refund, then that is asking a bit much unless maybe it was within 30 day of original purchase (trying to be generous).  Even then, it would depend on the condition of the rifle if I was the dealer.

 

On the second issue, only shooting it after 8 months, then I am on the side that it is on the buyer.  At that point I think the only thing the dealer is obligated to do is again offer to send it to the manufacturer for you, even if you have to pay for it.  FFL's typically get very good rates, so the cost shouldn't be a big deterrent.  Expecting a dealer to take back a gun after 8 months is ludicrous in my view.  To be fair, the OP never said he was expecting them to take it back, I think he was just frustrated with it not working and it doesn't help the Outpost employee recommended it.

 

As with anything, I think the issue comes down to something pretty simple.  We all hope that someone can empathize with our issue.  Some dealers are good at it and will try to do what they can to help even if it isn't really their issue.  These are the ones we like.  Then there are those who act like they couldn't give two craps and it only creates a bigger issue when we get pissed, but in the end there is very little we can do about it other than tell others of our experience.  Then there is a third which is just a douchebag buyer.  I actually think this is more rare, but it certainly happens.  In that case, even if the dealers were going to try and help, the buyer sets their own fate.  I am with the dealers on these situations.

 

 

Yeah, I don't hold the store accountable for a manufacturer's product, but in this case I don't expect them to send it in to CMMG for me either based on my previous experience with them. What I do expect is that when I lay out $1,000 for a piece of equipment it should be functional as in test fired before leaving the factory. Clearly, this weapon was not.

[E4 No More]

For the record, my plan is to call CMMG this morning when I can get a free moment at work - not screwing around with a store that's 40 miles away and, (from personal experience), been of no help resolving issues - and letting CMMG fix the problem.

 

Also for the record, the first rifle was shot within a week of purchase and reported to Outpost Armory which elicited the response of "Not our problem. Send it to the factory."

[cannoncocker]

If it would help, I'll be happy to strip the bolt from my 9mm CMMG and measure the firing pin length, etc.  Have you removed and inspected your firing pin/spring?

[E4 No More]

Update: I called CMMG and explained the situation. Tech support is sending me a new firing pin and made no comments on the situation.

[Luke E.]

No buyer's remorse here and neither was my wife unhappy. She was with me when I purchased it after all. She and I make major purchase decisions together.

I wasn't suggesting that you were one of them. I was simply agreeing that those people exist which is the only thing that I could agree with him on.
Well I'm glad you have it resolved and you're happy. That's all that matters.

[E4 No More]

I wasn't suggesting that you were one of them. I was simply agreeing that those people exist which is the only thing that I could agree with him on.
Well I'm glad you have it resolved and you're happy. That's all that matters.

No worries, I was kind of answering Orient Express' conclusion jumping via your post. Sorry that wasn't clear. :(

[Luke E.]

No worries, I was kind of answering Orient Express' conclusion jumping via your post. Sorry that wasn't clear. :(

Gotcha. Well again, glad you got it handled and hope you enjoy the rifle! An AR in 9mm or .45 is on my very short list of "must have ASAP" items and I've been looking hard at the CMMG offering or at least using their parts to build the upper.

[E4 No More]

UPDATE: I received the new firing pin and a new spring from CMMG today. Interesting that it's the same length as the one it replaced, but I indeed replaced both in the rifle. SInce I know I won't get out to the "range" soon, I took a primed brass and loaded it into the rifle. It indeed went "bang" when I pulled the stick, so that ought to satisfy people like Orient Express.

[Luke E.]

UPDATE: I received the new firing pin and a new spring from CMMG today. Interesting that it's the same length as the one it replaced, but I indeed replaced both in the rifle. SInce I know I won't get out to the "range" soon, I took a primed brass and loaded it into the rifle. It indeed went "bang" when I pulled the stick, so that ought to satisfy people like Orient Express.

 

 Glad that cured what ailed it!

[musicman]

Just read through this thread. I'm glad CMMG fixed the issue for you on this rifle, as I am (as many others seem to be) contemplating purchasing some of their parts for a build.

What I would like to know now is at which store orientalexpress works. There are quite a few around, and it would be a relief and a time-saver to just cross one off the list for future purchases.

[Oh Shoot]

UPDATE: I received the new firing pin and a new spring from CMMG today. Interesting that it's the same length as the one it replaced, but I indeed replaced both in the rifle. SInce I know I won't get out to the "range" soon, I took a primed brass and loaded it into the rifle. It indeed went "bang" when I pulled the stick, so that ought to satisfy people like Orient Express.

 

Am truly curious to know why the second one works and the first one doesn't.

 

Myself, I'd  put the first one back in and try it now.

 

- OS

[Garufa]

Am truly curious to know why the second one works and the first one doesn't.

 

Myself, I'd  put the first one back in and try it now.

 

- OS

 

My thoughts exactly.  Pop a cap with the old firing pin.

[E4 No More]

Am truly curious to know why the second one works and the first one doesn't.

 

Myself, I'd  put the first one back in and try it now.

 

- OS

I'll be danged, it went "bang" when I put the old pin and spring back into the rifle!

 

I notice that the firing pin spring tends to hang up on the front end of the firing pin. Perhaps it caught that lip when they assembled it? :shrug: But wouldn't they test fire it before shipping it? I was using HST factory ammo, so I guess it is possible that the chamber isn't cut right, but then again that would have been caught on a test fire? I find it hard to believe that it would fail to fire twice in a row with factory ammunition. I guess tomorrow I take it out to my friend's house and see if it works with the full cartridge in it.

[Guest whamonkey]

What a nightmare. I always field strip and lube all new firearms before taking them out. Might have caught this problem but then again who knows? I am suspicious of any firearm that doesn't perform flawlessly 99.9% of the time. Bad ammo I understand but the gun has to be right for me to keep it.Got rid of a Kimber Ultra Carry II for FTF 3 out of 50 rounds. Anyway, sounds like you got it working....

[Dolomite_supafly]

The old firing pin might be the correct length but the various steps in a 9mm firing pin may not be correct.

[Oh Shoot]

I'll be danged, it went "bang" when I put the old pin and spring back into the rifle!

So, you hadn't taken it apart and put it back together initially?
 

The old firing pin might be the correct length but the various steps in a 9mm firing pin may not be correct.

 
But the old one works now, and with the original spring too.  

 

I don't know anything about a 9mm AR bolt, but seems there was likely simply something in the firing pin channel keeping the pin from protruding. Whether it was something in the way the spring was aligned or a piece of crud or sliver of machining metal or whatever, who knows.

 

- OS
 

[Clod Stomper]

It has a firing pin spring?

Is that a 9mm AR thing? Edited July 12, 2014 by Clod Stomper