Firearm Registration

[JWKilgore]

I was under the impression that Chattanooga, Hamilton County, and the state of Tennessee does not have any form of firearm registration. Also, that the info on form 4473 stays in the dealer's file storage for 7 years (or something like that) then gets destroyed.

 

A few weeks back we had attempted break-in at my house. Fortunately, our house alarms (a monitored burglar alarm plus a very loud and toothy 100-lb German Shepherd) scared him off before he stole anything. Someone was arrested a few days later with property stolen from a few other houses in the area. Anyway, my wife was the first home after getting the call from our security company. She secured the dogs and waited for the police to secure the rest of the house. As they pulled up she stashed her handgun, a Walther PK380, in the foyer to avoid any complications. While securing the house, they asked her if we had any firearms (presumably to see if any weapons had been stolen), and specifically asked the location of the Walther PK380. 

 

What I'm curious about is how they knew we owned a PK380. It just so happens that this is the only handgun I have purchased new while living at that address. It was purchased from Shooter's Depot through Gunbroker about a year ago. I also purchased a .22 rifle from Sportsman's Warehouse last fall (direct sale), and another handgun from Sportsman's Supply in Hixson about 3 years ago when I lived at a different address (also direct sale). I have multiple other firearms that were either gifts, private sale (no 4473), or were purchased long ago. She wasn't questioned about those, only the PK380.

 

So how did they know?

 

The only possibilities I can think of is they either got the info from Gunbroker or directly from Shooter's Depot.

Edited July 2, 2014 by JWKilgore

[TrickyNicky]

Anyway they could have seen it or come across it while clearing the house? If so it would be an easy way to inquire that it was yours and not left by the intruder or an accomplice. Also by asking where it is if they already know they can make a determination on if it was maybe moved by someone other than the owner.

All just possible guess work. Kinda weird though either way.

[Ugly]

WOW, sounds prey damn creepy. These govs have been building the database since (at least) 08, I am guessing. Damned the law, they are the gov.

[Jonnin]

very odd.  I have bought at least 10 from the same store and when I had a break-in, the officer did not say a thing.   Which means nothing, he could have had the info and said nothing.  

 

I suspect the NICS database is de-facto registration, and probably always has been, or maybe the zerO  administration has made a few changes to policy and procedures...

[Hozzie]

I highly doubt they had any clue you had a pk380 when they arrived. Do you have to boxes they came somewhere they would have seen them while clearing the house, say in a closet they opened?


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[JWKilgore]

I highly doubt they had any clue you had a pk380 when they arrived. Do you have to boxes they came somewhere they would have seen them while clearing the house, say in a closet they opened?

 

This is something I hadn't considered, and now I feel like an idiot. :ugh: The plastic PK380 case is in the top of a bedroom closet, and is visible when the doors are open. My other handgun cases are elsewhere. He could have figured out the box was empty just by picking it up and noticing the weight. I know he did check closets because he asked her about the safe in the other bedroom closet.

 

No conspiracy here, so back to your regularly scheduled life. Sorry about that.  :surrender:

[Ted S.]

May not be registered per se, but that doesn't mean a paper trail isn't kept up somewhere behind the scenes.

[Oh Shoot]

Sound like you solved the mystery, so just a comment on:

 

... Also, that the info on form 4473 stays in the dealer's file storage for 7 years (or something like that) then gets destroyed.

 

Completed 4473s must be kept for 20 years. Any older than that may be destroyed by the FFL, but that is extra work for the FFL, so seems likely most would just keep them?

 

At any rate ATF requests FFLs send them the old ones rather than destroy them so can be added to the National Tracing Center database. Also, when an FFL goes out of biz, all 4473s are to be sent to ATF where they go into the database also.

 

So anyone who says the gummit does not have a database of beau coup 4473s is totally wrong. ATF very upfront about what all goes into the database:

 

https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-enforcement/national-tracing-center

 

- OS

[JWKilgore]

Slightly off topic, but my wife mentioned the new car-carry bill and the officer informed her that that bill had NOT passed yet; that is was just talk. Thankfully, she didn't argue with him.

[Ted S.]

Slightly off topic, but my wife mentioned the new car-carry bill and the officer informed her that that bill had NOT passed yet; that is was just talk. Thankfully, she didn't argue with him.

 

Id just recommend to him that he verifies the law to ensure he is up to date.

[Guest princeshoko]

The law passed.  Do what I've done  and print the law and start date out and keep it in your car with the firearm.  If I ever get told  "NO"  then I have paper there I can say "Excuse me but here ya go"

[Spiffy]

I figure they keep records when they do the background check, but if they are checking to see if I can legally purchase a firearm why do they need the serial number, make, model and caliber of the gun.

[Oh Shoot]

I figure they keep records when they do the background check, but if they are checking to see if I can legally purchase a firearm why do they need the serial number, make, model and caliber of the gun.

 

Those details are not passed along during the NCIS check. But they are obviously on the 4473 so guns can be traced afterwards. And become part of permanent database once an FFL surrenders them of course.

 

- OS

[JayC]

Unless the law has been changed in the last 2 years...  4473's are NOT entered into the tracing database as that would be a violation of federal law.  Form 4473's specifically prohibited from being put into a computer database by federal law, and every year the budget passed by the House provides that no money shall be spent on entering them in a database.

 

Here is a story from NY Times in 2012:  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/26/us/legislative-handcuffs-limit-atfs-ability-to-fight-gun-crime.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

For example, under current laws the bureau is prohibited from creating a federal registry of gun transactions. 

 

When law enforcement officers recover a gun and serial number, workers at the bureau’s National Tracing Center here — a windowless warehouse-style building on a narrow road outside town — begin making their way through a series of phone calls, asking first the manufacturer, then the wholesaler and finally the dealer to search their files to identify the buyer of the firearm.

About a third of the time, the process involves digging through records sent in by companies that have closed, in many cases searching by hand through cardboard boxes filled with computer printouts, hand-scrawled index cards or even water-stained sheets of paper.

In an age when data is often available with a few keystrokes, the A.T.F. is forced to follow this manual routine because the idea of establishing a central database of gun transactions has been rejected by lawmakers in Congress, who have sided with the National Rifle Association, which argues that such a database poses a threat to the Second Amendment. In other countries, gun rights groups argue, governments have used gun registries to confiscate the firearms of law-abiding citizens.

 

So IF the ATF is building is registration database it's doing so in violation of federal law.

 

A much bigger concern is a little know system run by NCIS called LinX which is storing data on firearms ran during traffic stops...  which could be turned into a registry.

 

Sound like you solved the mystery, so just a comment on:

 

 

Completed 4473s must be kept for 20 years. Any older than that may be destroyed by the FFL, but that is extra work for the FFL, so seems likely most would just keep them?

 

At any rate ATF requests FFLs send them the old ones rather than destroy them so can be added to the National Tracing Center database. Also, when an FFL goes out of biz, all 4473s are to be sent to ATF where they go into the database also.

 

So anyone who says the gummit does not have a database of beau coup 4473s is totally wrong. ATF very upfront about what all goes into the database:

 

https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-enforcement/national-tracing-center

 

- OS

Edited July 14, 2014 by JayC

[Mike.357]

 

 

So IF the ATF is building is registration database it's doing so in violation of federal law.

 

who would ever think the ATF or .gov would break any laws? Preposterous! 

[JayC]

I personally believe the ATF routinely violates both the constitution and federal law....  but I don't think they're sharing said illegal activities with every police department in the country performing routine B&E investigations :)

 

who would ever think the ATF or .gov would break any laws? Preposterous! 

[Spiffy]

Those details are not passed along during the NCIS check. But they are obviously on the 4473 so guns can be traced afterwards. And become part of permanent database once an FFL surrenders them of course.

 

- OS

 

I've had dealers tell them the make and model over the phone when they call it in.  Whoever they talk to might not type it in during the check on their end but it still sounds odd at the time.

[Smith]

[quote name="Spiffy" post="1168462" timestamp="1405357012"]I've had dealers tell them the make and model over the phone when they call it in. Whoever they talk to might not type it in during the check on their end but it still sounds odd at the time.[/quote] That's because they run two separate checks that are not tied together except on the 4473 itself. The nics check runs one check on the buyer and a seperate check on the gun to verify it is not stolen or otherwise in the database for recovery. This is why they call the manufacturer, then distributor, then the dealer when they recover a criminally used gun to identify the original buyer. They don't know otherwise.

[Oh Shoot]

Unless the law has been changed in the last 2 years...  4473's are NOT entered into the tracing database as that would be a violation of federal law.  Form 4473's specifically prohibited from being put into a computer database by federal law, and every year the budget passed by the House provides that no money shall be spent on entering them in a database.

 

Well, technically, that's correct.  I guess it depends on what you mean by "database". ATF does indeed have ongoing program to scan 4473s surrendered by FFLs to microfilm and has a database to find each dealer's records. I suppose it's splitting hairs to stay on the legal side of things that they don't actually build a database by owner name (as far as can be proven anyway).

 

It would be interesting to know how the microfilm is produced. If using digital conversion, and the raw data is stored, the data is searchable, so it might be as simple as activating a search program on the stored data to find individual gun owner names "in case" a registry becomes legal.

 

Also, any trace instituted does go into a separate database file, so they admit at least to that part.

 

Here's an excerpt from a longer vid I've seen about the National Tracing Center (ABC News, not Alex Jones :))

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lFdLaYcDNQ

 

And another similar report:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Ef1kMrUXU

 

And FWIW, here is discussion of the "databases"  kept by the Tracing Center, and their sources, at Wiki:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tracing_Center

 

 

 

- OS

Edited July 14, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Garufa]

Microfilm?  How quaint.

[Oh Shoot]

Microfilm?  How quaint.

 

Well, I'd say the microfilm is generated from digital files as the stop gap measure to complying with no "firearm owner database".

 

But overall all, I'd opine that a de facto owner database actually exists from these records, it's just not searchable. Legally at least. To think that DHS and/or the spook organizations don't have access to it might be a bit naive though, IMHO, since they've already been shown to have all kinds of "illegal" databases on us.

 

- OS

Edited July 14, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[redfsr]

I figure they keep records when they do the background check, but if they are checking to see if I can legally purchase a firearm why do they need the serial number, make, model and caliber of the gun.

Tennessee requires it to check the gun for stolen.  

[redfsr]

I was under the impression that Chattanooga, Hamilton County, and the state of Tennessee does not have any form of firearm registration. Also, that the info on form 4473 stays in the dealer's file storage for 7 years (or something like that) then gets destroyed.

 

A few weeks back we had attempted break-in at my house. Fortunately, our house alarms (a monitored burglar alarm plus a very loud and toothy 100-lb German Shepherd) scared him off before he stole anything. Someone was arrested a few days later with property stolen from a few other houses in the area. Anyway, my wife was the first home after getting the call from our security company. She secured the dogs and waited for the police to secure the rest of the house. As they pulled up she stashed her handgun, a Walther PK380, in the foyer to avoid any complications. While securing the house, they asked her if we had any firearms (presumably to see if any weapons had been stolen), and specifically asked the location of the Walther PK380. 

 

What I'm curious about is how they knew we owned a PK380. It just so happens that this is the only handgun I have purchased new while living at that address. It was purchased from Shooter's Depot through Gunbroker about a year ago. I also purchased a .22 rifle from Sportsman's Warehouse last fall (direct sale), and another handgun from Sportsman's Supply in Hixson about 3 years ago when I lived at a different address (also direct sale). I have multiple other firearms that were either gifts, private sale (no 4473), or were purchased long ago. She wasn't questioned about those, only the PK380.

 

So how did they know?

 

The only possibilities I can think of is they either got the info from Gunbroker or directly from Shooter's Depot.

Maybe she told them before they asked and forgot.  There is no way they knew that you had a PK380 unless someone told them.  

[Oh Shoot]

Tennessee requires it to check the gun for stolen.  

 

I too have heard at least a couple of my checks called in, and none of the firearm specifics were given, only the "long gun/handgun" description. Granted, the last one I had done by phone was maybe 3 years ago or so.

 

- OS