Confusiuon about "Castle Doctrine"

[Angus]

"don't move a muscle scumbag, I am calling 911....911 whats yer emergency...I have a dead man in my house"....done deal...heh

Identification can be made at the morgue by the flamboyant family of this "innocent little boy"

Actually, a neighbor in our old house threatened to throw a beercan at my wife, when the officer asked if she was in fear for her life, she said"yeah, if that can was full he could have knocked me out, and harmed me"...LEO said "exactly what I was thinking maam"...soo, fear for your life....anytime I am threatened I am in fear for my life.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Angus

[Punisher84]

Some good replies here. Just to let you know I didn't mean it as a trap, "splintered door and crowbar in hand" will mean 5 fast reports from my J-frame also. My question was when no weapon is visible and you have waited too long to react, wouldn't letting them escape be the safest route? Take a good hard look so you can identify them later and return to a ready mode. Holding anybody at gun point sounds terribly risky to me, if you fire at them later because they try to get up it will sure look like an execution. Might go in Texas with Mexicans as BGs but I don't really think it will fly under the "Self Defense Litmus Test" in Tennessee, especially if the BGs turn out to be relatives of a lot of locals.

I think the Castle Doctrine is only a help if you are startled or there is a forcible break in. Somebody coming through an unlocked door or you catching them inside during a burglary might well be outside the pale of CD, with the old SD rules coming into play. I don't really know, but I won't feel real comfortable with it until we see some case law.

Meanwhile, I do lock my doors, ADT is turned on and S&W is by the bed. I am going to have splintered door and siren blaring when the LEA arrive.

Holding someone at gunpoint if you have witnessed a crime in progress is perfectly legal and falls under citizen's arrest. Now if they get up and run out the door I'm not going to fire or give chase, but if they get up and come at me...we all know the ending.

There have been several cases where permit holders intervened and held a criminal at gunpoint without firing a shot. Just depends on the criminal.

[Guest db99wj]

Holding someone at gunpoint if you have witnessed a crime in progress is perfectly legal and falls under citizen's arrest. Now if they get up and run out the door I'm not going to fire or give chase, but if they get up and come at me...we all know the ending.

There have been several cases where permit holders intervened and held a criminal at gunpoint without firing a shot. Just depends on the criminal.

One such case was the stabbing at Schuck's Grocery out on near Wolfchase, they guy stabbed 7 people and a permit holder held him at gunpoint in the parking lot until LEO got there. No problems for him except for hopefully the neverending line of people to give him a pat on the back.

[Punisher84]

One such case was the stabbing at Schuck's Grocery out on near Wolfchase, they guy stabbed 7 people and a permit holder held him at gunpoint in the parking lot until LEO got there. No problems for him except for hopefully the neverending line of people to give him a pat on the back.

That was the exact case I had in mind actually.

[HillbillyMafia]

death and great bodily harm, huh?

So , are physical handicaps considered as extenuating circumstances my question?

Guy comes into your yard with a baseball bat threating to beat your brains out. Would you shoot him? How about if you were in a wheelchair?

You hear a pecking on your car window at a red light. you turn to see a man with a gun in his hand, out of breath, asking you to call the police because hes just been "Jacked". Would you shoot him? What If you were deaf, and just happened to turn and see an out of breath guy with a gun beating on your car window?

You come out of the mall and see someone backing your car out of a parking place. would you shoot him? What if the van is handicapped accessible with a lift, and hand controls, because you are a parapalegic amd it would take upto a year, and 100K to replace?

Mu scenario...You are leaving work, standing on the corner waiting for your carpool to pick you up, when a man walks up to you and says"Give me your wallet, or I'll cut you up." Would you shoot him? What if you were legally blind and couldnt see due ro rhe glare of the sun in full sunlight?

OK, in my case where do those lines begin and end? From 10' I couldnt tell if the guy had a gun, rock, candlestick, ot a smiley face burroin in his hand. So my plan is easy, draw first and call the law. If they refuse to stop, get down or resume advancing towatd me, i will shoot. and I will nor shoot to wound. I dont feel that I have the luxury of doubt in these situations, as i cant see anyway.

[DaveTN]

death and great bodily harm, huh?

No, Death or great bodily harm.

Guy comes into your yard with a baseball bat threating to beat your brains out. Would you shoot him? How about if you were in a wheelchair?

He is armed with a deadly weapon the same as if he had a gun. He gets a verbal warning as he moves within striking range. (if there is time) If he continues and is nearing striking range he gets shot. You being in a wheelchair would make do difference.

You hear a pecking on your car window at a red light. you turn to see a man with a gun in his hand, out of breath, asking you to call the police because hes just been "Jacked". Would you shoot him? What If you were deaf, and just happened to turn and see an out of breath guy with a gun beating on your car window?

You are talking about shooting an innocent person. “Reasonable Person†comes into play.

Is he threatening you? Would a “Reasonable Person†think he was threatening you?

Using deadly force carries a tremendous responsibility. You can’t shoot someone because you are scared. And you can’t shoot someone just because they have a gun in their hand. (That’s another danger of pulling a gun; another armed person may not know for sure what they are seeing)

You come out of the mall and see someone backing your car out of a parking place. would you shoot him? What if the van is handicapped accessible with a lift, and hand controls, because you are a parapalegic amd it would take upto a year, and 100K to replace?

Nope... call 911.

I’m not shooting anyone over property no matter what it cost.

And secondly, you don’t open fire in a mall parking lot and you sure don’t start firing at a vehicle in a parking lot.

Mu scenario...You are leaving work, standing on the corner waiting for your carpool to pick you up, when a man walks up to you and says"Give me your wallet, or I'll cut you up." Would you shoot him?

"Give me your wallet, or I'll cut you up."

Would a reasonable person believe that you are in danger of death or great bodily harm?

You bet; light him up.

Would you shoot him? What if you were legally blind and couldnt see due ro rhe glare of the sun in full sunlight?

OK, in my case where do those lines begin and end? From 10' I couldnt tell if the guy had a gun, rock, candlestick, ot a smiley face burroin in his hand. So my plan is easy, draw first and call the law. If they refuse to stop, get down or resume advancing towatd me, i will shoot. and I will nor shoot to wound. I dont feel that I have the luxury of doubt in these situations, as i cant see anyway.

Sorry, but if you are legally blind you have no business carrying. You need to be able to see that the threat is directed at you and that it is credible.

You need to be able to identify your target and the innocent people around it. Anything less puts the innocent public in danger of being shot; and that is not acceptable.

If you can’t see, you can’t pass the HCP course.

[HillbillyMafia]

If you can’t see, you can’t pass the HCP course

Thats what I thought too. what got me started on the HCP odyssey was meeting a man who was "stick" blind who had his HCP. He was a member of the NFB and I met him in Nashville at a convention. I did. and my best corrected vision in my best eye is 20/200. SSA sats Im blind. State says Im blind. I took the class, passed the test, and put 45 put pf 48 oin the Black. nothing in the requirements says you cannot get a HCP if your blind. IMO Part of the reason is discrimination issues, and they figure anyone who is blind wont try for it with the cost of the class, and application fees I guess.

Anyway back to the ?'s.

1. If you waited till the BG was "within striking distance" of you standing, say 10' and you believe you could draw, get on target and fire in that time, then I would say that is a safe distance for you. However if you were in a wheelchair, or Sticks for that matter, you already know you cant outrun him, or increase distance, so is 10' still plausible. Another ? if you were on sticks, with a waist holster, would you be quick enough at 10" to drop our sticks, draw, get on target, and fire in 10'with lots oif practice, I THINK this might be doable. but then a wheelchair...a waist holster, arguably the quickest location to get to your weapon and draw, is virtually inaccessible in a chair with arms. The things i came up with on this one, were a shoulder rig, a vest pocket, under the leg(not the best idea, but plausible, or OC in a holster attached to the side of the wheelchair, or [possibly CC in a holster attached to the inside of the chair armin a crossdraw position. All slow choices, so say , to my mind at least, 25' would be a reasonable distance.

2. This one is harder to come up with a good demonstration, but this is what i thiought of. get in toiur car, start it up, rollup all the windows, crank the radio, put on a hat, with "blinders(i used cardboard and tape to do this oneattached to a ball cap), then concentrate on doing a crossword puzzle, with the paper laying in the passenger seat. the belief here was if you cant induce the absense of sound, then overload the sense to obliviate it. then have a friend come up and start tapping on the window rill he gets your attebntion. Scared the bejeez out of me. at that point try to make an informed decision with the facts you have, outof breath, gun in hand, beating on window. I dont think I could find it in myselkf not to try to draw .

3. Sa change this scenario to krystaks at 3am only car, customer on the lot/. The point I was trying to make here is while you can go to alamo, enterprise, pr hertz and rent another car THAT SAME DAY. the person with the disability could not. find another one that quick come hell or high water. Also we dont want to ask for help and eides, and someone to take us to the doctor, or the store, or the mall, or the GF's houde, or the conviencne store, or the movies, or the library, yadayadayada. When that vehicle is stolen, it makes a dramatic, life changing experience even more difficult. Especially when you realiize that the insurance Co will probably not pay to re[place all the accessibilty devices you will need to operate the vehicle. While I agree with your thoughts, I think it would be a bitter pill to swallow, but it is just property

4. I made this one to easy, LOL

i AM TRYING NOT TO BE ARGUMANTATIVE!!!!!!!

but I do want opinions, as these issues are what comes up when we with disabilities get together and talk about the state of the union, the breakdown of society, and mankind at his worst. A lot of the choices and abilities you have are not available to us.

[strickj]

However if you were in a wheelchair, or Sticks for that matter, you already know you cant outrun him

Obviously youve nevr gone to Wally World with me.

I could out run you with just an average pace

I can also draw just as quickly,strong side,hip usually.

Your thinking to much about an old woman in a nursing home.Not a Bionic Man thats built for looks and cheap women.

All I have to say to the rest of you is this

Please stop thinking!Its for the children

Edited October 17, 2008 by strickj

[strickj]

I will also add that just because someone is "legally blind" does not mean their world is black.

There is actually a blind hunters club in TN

[DaveTN]

1. If you waited till the BG was "within striking distance" of you standing, say 10' and you believe you could draw, get on target and fire in that time, then I would say that is a safe distance for you. However if you were in a wheelchair, or Sticks for that matter, you already know you cant outrun him, or increase distance, so is 10' still plausible. Another ? if you were on sticks, with a waist holster, would you be quick enough at 10" to drop our sticks, draw, get on target, and fire in 10'with lots oif practice, I THINK this might be doable. but then a wheelchair...a waist holster, arguably the quickest location to get to your weapon and draw, is virtually inaccessible in a chair with arms. The things i came up with on this one, were a shoulder rig, a vest pocket, under the leg(not the best idea, but plausible, or OC in a holster attached to the side of the wheelchair, or [possibly CC in a holster attached to the inside of the chair armin a crossdraw position. All slow choices, so say , to my mind at least, 25' would be a reasonable distance.

25 feet sounds good to me wheelchair or no wheelchair. The distance is not important as the attackers intent and ability to inflict harm. No one said you had to wait to draw. If a guy is runnning at me with a baseball bat, he will be running at a firearm pointed at him. I would like to be able to say that he saw the wepon; but that is not nessessary.

2. This one is harder to come up with a good demonstration, but this is what i thiought of. get in toiur car, start it up, rollup all the windows, crank the radio, put on a hat, with "blinders(i used cardboard and tape to do this oneattached to a ball cap), then concentrate on doing a crossword puzzle, with the paper laying in the passenger seat. the belief here was if you cant induce the absense of sound, then overload the sense to obliviate it. then have a friend come up and start tapping on the window rill he gets your attebntion. Scared the bejeez out of me. at that point try to make an informed decision with the facts you have, outof breath, gun in hand, beating on window. I dont think I could find it in myselkf not to try to draw .

Draw all you like, but if you pull the trigger you are going to prison.

You can’t kill someone because they scare you.

3. Sa change this scenario to krystaks at 3am only car, customer on the lot/. The point I was trying to make here is while you can go to alamo, enterprise, pr hertz and rent another car THAT SAME DAY. the person with the disability could not. find another one that quick come hell or high water. Also we dont want to ask for help and eides, and someone to take us to the doctor, or the store, or the mall, or the GF's houde, or the conviencne store, or the movies, or the library, yadayadayada. When that vehicle is stolen, it makes a dramatic, life changing experience even more difficult. Especially when you realiize that the insurance Co will probably not pay to re[place all the accessibilty devices you will need to operate the vehicle. While I agree with your thoughts, I think it would be a bitter pill to swallow, but it is just property

Your story would pale in comparison when the parents of the 6 year old innocent bystander you killed in the parking lot addressed the court at your sentencing hearing.

4. I made this one to easy, LOL

i AM TRYING NOT TO BE ARGUMANTATIVE!!!!!!!

but I do want opinions, as these issues are what comes up when we with disabilities get together and talk about the state of the union, the breakdown of society, and mankind at his worst. A lot of the choices and abilities you have are not available to us.

I’m sure you have more challenges that most of us.

But giving a HCP to a blind guy is reckless…. Criminal reckless.

There are people with disabilities that through no fault of their own are barred from having guns and carry permits. People with mental disorders can’t have guns.

[Fallguy]

Guy comes into your yard with a baseball bat threating to beat your brains out. Would you shoot him? How about if you were in a wheelchair?

Short answer Yes...at the point I was in fear. If I were in a wheelchair, that point would probably come sooner than if I weren't.

You hear a pecking on your car window at a red light. you turn to see a man with a gun in his hand, out of breath, asking you to call the police because hes just been "Jacked". Would you shoot him? What If you were deaf, and just happened to turn and see an out of breath guy with a gun beating on your car window?

If he is not pointing the gun at me I don't think I would shoot. I believe I would simply drive off if at all possiable.

You come out of the mall and see someone backing your car out of a parking place. would you shoot him? What if the van is handicapped accessible with a lift, and hand controls, because you are a parapalegic amd it would take upto a year, and 100K to replace?

TN law does not allow for the use of deadly force to protect property. If it did, in certain circumstances I would shoot to prevent the theft of my property. The theft of my car is one of those circumstances, now if it was in a crowded parking lot...it would depend on the varialbles...distance I am from the car, what is in the line of fire, what is beyond the target, etc..

Mu scenario...You are leaving work, standing on the corner waiting for your carpool to pick you up, when a man walks up to you and says"Give me your wallet, or I'll cut you up." Would you shoot him? What if you were legally blind and couldnt see due ro rhe glare of the sun in full sunlight?

Yes, I feel I would be in fear after having recieved a direct threat upon my life.

[Guest canynracer]

But...."WHAT IF..." there is a report of an invasion and people wearing furry hats on their heads start running at me...What if a chiuawa is REALLLY pissed cause I am eating Taco Bell....

WHat if...what if...what if...we can do this all night guys....here is the deal...the law is

eminant fear....if you have that...shoot, if you dont know if you have it, you probably DONT...better not shoot, instead RUN.

[HillbillyMafia]

But giving a HCP to a blind guy is reckless…. Criminal reckless. There are people with disabilities that through no fault of their own are barred from having guns and carry permits. People with mental disorders can’t have guns.

Wow, all I can say is Wow.

stickj, Fallguy thanjs for the input and will be sending a PM in the morning with some ?'s

DaveTN, Sorry To have interrupted your busy life. You have a good Day .

Hillbilly

Edited October 18, 2008 by HillbillyMafia

[strickj]

Originally Posted by DaveTN

But giving a HCP to a blind guy is reckless…. Criminal reckless.

Obviously Dave you have dyslexia.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=173217&postcount=34

Maybe they should take your guns from you because your unable to read the no carry signs.

Dont make it a habit to argue over something you are unaware about

Edited October 18, 2008 by strickj

[DaveTN]

Obviously Dave you have dyslexia.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=173217&postcount=34

Maybe they should take your guns from you because your unable to read the no carry signs.

Dont make it a habit to argue over something you are unaware about

I can read the signs just fine. But more importantly I can identify my target and make decisions based on what is around it.

I thought HM was trying to discuss situations specific to people with disabilities and what the legal outcome would be. Apparently I was wrong.

If you have a problem with this discussion you could shoot me a PM and I won’t post. But accusing me of having dyslexia or saying that I am unaware of the issues isn’t necessary.

I’m sorry that he is blind and that you are in a wheelchair, but if either of you think the legal system will give you a break in a shooting; you are wrong.

Edited October 18, 2008 by DaveTN

[strickj]

I dont have a problem with you Dave.

What pissed me off is you saying "But giving a HCP to a blind guy is reckless…. Criminal reckless"

Thats just not right,nor is it your place to regulate what he can or can not do.

You have no clue as to his limits.So why you would say that beats me

[Guest Revelator]

I'm not sure how blind legally blind is; I remember a discussion here some months back about how legally blind folks could qualify for a permit. Actually I'm not sure if it was legally blind or just somewhat impaired or what. Anyway, whether you have some significant vision impairment or are in a wheelchair, no the law won't give you a break but let's face it: it's going to come into account more so than with a non-disabled person. A jury's going to take it into account, and just as importantly so is a prosecutor in deciding if the case has merit. They've got to decide if they want to have that guy sitting in front of the jury in his wheelchair, soaking up sympathy the whole time. They're going to need some good, solid facts to overcome that. I think Fallguy is right in that the threshold for a reasonable belief of imminent fear of death or bodily injury is lower for a disabled person.

[DaveTN]

I dont have a problem with you Dave.

What pissed me off is you saying "But giving a HCP to a blind guy is reckless…. Criminal reckless"

Thats just not right,nor is it your place to regulate what he can or can not do.

You have no clue as to his limits.So why you would say that beats me

I wasn’t commenting on him specifically. But while it may not be my place to regulate what he can or can’t do; I hope someone at the state level is.

Why did that piss you off? If a person can’t distinguish the good guys from the bad guys or a threat from a non-threat; they have absolutely no business carrying a gun. That is common sense. If the person is not blind and can pass the HCP range test, but is going somewhere else with this “legally blind†scenario… then disregard my comments because I don’t understand what he is talking about.

As I said mentally ill people are not allowed to have guns and no one seems to have a problem with that. Many of those people are disabled through no fault of their own.

He eluded to the fact that if someone is deaf or blind and someone knocks on the window of the car they are justified in opening fire because they have been startled. He also is suggesting that because his specially equipped vehicle is expensive and its loss would limit his lifestyle; that may be justification for the use of deadly force.

If you think that a Jury or a Prosecutor would give that person preferential treatment after they killed an innocent person; believe it. As a former Police Officer and having been involved in many shooting cases and trials; I can assure you that we do not have a justice system, we have a legal system.