Did Everything Weapons in Franklin sell me a used gun as new?

[Guest Skyline034]

Looking around at other forums on the net seems to be exposing some issues with Taurus sending out dirty new in box guns, that from the pics look like they've had 50+ rounds through them. Some of the guns were filthy looking. I understand guns are test fired at the factory but is it really that hard for Taurus to at least wipe the thing off? I mean Glock and S&W don't seem to have a problem doing it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KKing]

[quote name="Runco" post="1161105" timestamp="1403353566"]I agree with everyone, the gun appears used. However, I like to pose a question to the OP and others. What is the definition of new? Never owned by anyone? Never fired by anyone outside the factory? Very shiny and clean? So how does this compare to buying a new car. Ever bought a new car with just 0.1 miles on the odometer, or did it have 0.2 miles, 1.0 miles, 2.0 miles, 8 miles, etc. At what point does the various test drives will cause that new car to be a used car? Of course, we would negotiate the hound of a new car if it showed 50 miles on the odometer and dealer was trying pass it off as new car, ....its never been titled before thus it must be a new car! We would accept that, but we would want a discount. Unless we didn't know to look at the odometer. My take, the gun was a demo model or was test driven a lot. Yes, the OP should have inspected the gun more closer, and looked at the odometer. Well since guns don't have a odometer, one has to know the tale tale signs to look for. One would think that one does not have to do this at a business that is selling new guns, but business is business! I believe in this case the seller gets a point, and the buyer gets no points in the due diligence or art of selling and buying, so the score is 1-0. Chalk this up as a lessons learned, and take the lesson of impulse buying vs. buying at Academy to heart. Business is business, unless you have a defective gun or something, its highly likely nothing you can do or prove anyway. Unless you will feel better by trying to make your point to the business, I doubt you will move the needle at all. Suggest move on, and never shop there again. I also suggest if the business has a facebook page, to aire your experience there! More foot traffic will see it![/quote] You see...I'm not of that school of thought. I just don't believe that if you screw me that's it's somehow okay simply because I had a chance to look at the weapon. Now, if they truly sold him a used gun at a new price, that's when we'll see what their business is made of. Based on how they handle it, I suppose that's when we'll see the beauty of capitalism kick in. They handle it bad, we may see a lot of TGO'ers that would be potential customers go somewhere else. They handle it well, and they could gain business. Caveat emptor- buyer beware and all that, sure you say that's just good old business. Getting screwed by a business is just that, regardless. Do they have to do anything about his dirty weapon? No, not at all. Will their business hurt if they don't? Possibly Edited June 21, 2014 by KKing

[TMF]

I picked up my TCP the day it came from the truck to the gunshop. Mine was clean. Only a little greasy. I probably wouldn't have cared if there was fouling in the barrel other than the principle of it. However, if I bought a pistol that was sold at a store as "new" only to find out it was a demo gun, I'd be seeking resolution. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wtl]

Please understand I haven't implied I've been screwed, and I'm not bashing EW. I simply came here to ask for advice. When I disassembled the gun, I was surprised to see how dirty it was. I ran through all the possibilities mentally, including maybe they rented it out or test fired it at their range, but then figured if so they should have at least cleaned it back up if they were selling it as new. If they had, I would have been none the wiser, and I don't necessarily have a problem with the store helping me break it in :-). And yes, as I indicated in my first post, I definitely should have looked it over more closely. I hadn't really considered the possibility that Taurus would let it go out their doors in this condition, but maybe that's a possibility too from some of the feedback.

 

My only reason for posting here was to ask for advice from fellow gun owners. Every other gun I've purchased new has been shiny and clean, so that's kinda what I expect in a new gun. I haven't come to a conclusion how I should feel about it, and I didn't contact the seller because 1) it was the first time I've dealt with them--other than hearing their commercials on WLAC I have no idea what their reputation is. If this is something they routinely do someone here would probably chime in, and 2) I really have no way of proving I haven't fired the thing and dirtied it up myself, so I figured asking for advice here would be beneficial.

 

I don't use the cesspool that is Facebook (even though I'm in IT) and if I did I wouldn't be hounding EW that way. I'm not angry and I'm not bashing them--just trying to figure out what the appropriate response should be, if any. If the gun works properly I don't really think I have a problem--I was just thrown that it was so dirty on the first disassembly and that's all. I'm also reluctant to fire it now until I decide what I feel about it.

 

I invited EW here not to stir things up, but because I had some good feedback here from knowledgeable folks plus the pictures handy. I live an hour away from EW now and don't know when I'd be back down there to talk to them face to face. Plus as a LGS they probably should consider the benefits of interacting with the good folks who frequent this place, right?

 

The salesperson I dealt with was extremely courteous and probably worked with me for a good 20-30 minutes as I handled all of the .380s they had in stock. I had a great in-store experience, and though it was somewhat of an impulse purchase, I *had* been planning on purchasing a TCP for a good couple months at least, and I'm the type of person who will spend a little more at a locally owned store who seems to be professional rather than save a few bucks by going to a big box store. The salesperson was very nice and had spent some time with me, and the little gun felt good in the hand, so I figured why not just go ahead and take it home. I run a small (not retail though) business myself and I tend to look at things from the businessman's perspective--they go out of their way to help a potential customer and then many of them walk out without making a purchase and probably *do* go buy where they can save a few dollars.

 

The automobile analogy doesn't exactly work. Everyone knows going into a new car purchase that there is some mileage from test drives, moving the vehicle around, etc. Nobody expects to find the car littered with soda cans and fingerprints all over the windows though, which would be more equivalent to this situation.

 

At any rate, I just want to make it clear that I'm not bashing anyone. I just wanted advice from the knowledgeable and thoughtful fellow gun owners here, and I thank you all for your feedback so far. I have been PMed by a friend of the manager of EW who apparently wants me to email him, so I'll do that and detail here whatever comes of it, as I'm not trying to cast a negative light on EW.

Edited June 21, 2014 by wtl

[runco]

You see...I'm not of that school of thought. I just don't believe that if you screw me that's it's somehow okay simply because I had a chance to look at the weapon. Now, if they truly sold him a used gun at a new price, that's when we'll see what their business is made of. Based on how they handle it, I suppose that's when we'll see the beauty of capitalism kick in. They handle it bad, we may see a lot of TGO'ers that would be potential customers go somewhere else. They handle it well, and they could gain business. Caveat emptor- buyer beware and all that, sure you say that's just good old business. Getting screwed by a business is just that, regardless. Do they have to do anything about his dirty weapon? No, not at all. Will their business hurt if they don't? Possibly

See I am from a different school of thought too.  I have been burned too many times before I learned this lesson 20 years ago.  I do not trust anyone, anyone when it comes to my money.  I am very suspicious of every purchase say $100 or more.  From a buying a new gun, used gun, new car, boat, dishwasher, stove, lawnmower, etc.  I look over each one carefully, do my homework, and ask the questions, then negotiate on my perception.  Businesses basic business model is to buy inventory, mark the inventory up, hold inventory, and sell inventory to make a profit.  How they sell the inventory can be of course come in many ways and makes certain businesses more attractive to some than others.  You may call it getting screwed, to someone else it may be called simply closing the deal.  If the buyer is unaware, then no harm, and if the buyer becomes upset afterwards, nothing illegal occurred.  Some businesses prey on 1 time buyers, and don't care if you come back or not, while other businesses want that repeat business or sell it like they do.   I suspect a little noise from one dissatisfied customer won't do much, other than make the dissatisfied customer sleep better.

 

Like in my comparison to buying a new car, there are many new car dealers that would sell that car to you with 50 miles on the odometer as a new car at new car pricing without blinking an eye, but I am sure there are some (few) that would overly discount it w/o you having to ask for it!  One more point and I am done, don't confuse a bad apple to a bad apple tree.  My only point to responding to this thread as a potential buyer just do your homework before forking out the dough.   Never never ever trust the fox (sales person) guarding the hen house! 

Edited June 21, 2014 by Runco

[KKing]

[quote name="wtl" post="1161132" timestamp="1403362244"] At any rate, I just want to make it clear that I'm not bashing anyone. I just wanted advice from the knowledgeable and thoughtful fellow gun owners here, and I thank you all for your feedback so far. I have been PMed by a friend of the manager of EW who apparently wants me to email him, so I'll do that and detail here whatever comes of it, as I'm not trying to cast a negative light on EW.[/quote] I will say that you're taking this in stride and handling it very well. I commend you for that. And Runco, I certainly agree about doing your homework. But, being an uninformed buyer or eager buyer is no excuse for a business to take advantage of you by selling you a used product for a new price (if that's even the case in this situation). Anyway, hope all gets resolved and the Taurus runs well for you OP Edited June 21, 2014 by KKing

[Dustbuster]

In the end as long as your happy that's what counts. I reasonably believe you were sold a used gun. Not one that was test fired w one round but fired w many more. I would have looked at it real close before leaving the store. But it could have been honestly or mistakenly labeled as new. I'd be curious as to what the shop does when asked about it in my opinion...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 of course it ate my spelling.

[Joe357]

After looking at the photos IMHO, I would say this gun has been fired a few times, either at the factory or store. If it came in that way I would think the store would have cleaned it up to avoid confusion as to being used or a store demo. If it is a store demo it should have been discounted a little. Either way the gun would still be considered new as long as it was not transfered to an individual. I would either call the store or go there in person and request some kind of explanation as to condition when purchased.

[gregintenn]

Didn't you look it over before you bought it?

 

I expect the gun came in a shipment from their distributor that way , and likely hasn't been out of the box until you bought it.

 

Was it in a display case, or did they retrieve it in the box from the back?

 

It IS a Taurus, and not a valuable showpiece. It's a pocket pistol. Assuming it functions correctly and you like it, I wouldn't give it another thought.

[wileecoyote]

I have personally inspected and handled literally several hundreds of brand new guns shipped from dozens of manufacturers, distributors, and dealers over the past few years alone. Nearly all of these were never opened new in box and I was the first person to open the boxes. Every single gun that was sold as brand new was in fact brand new (even the cheaper brands or models like Taurus TCP), and it's pretty easy to tell.

The box or case usually has a stiff feel free of creases and lacking the looseness that comes with multiple open/closing actions. The guns are almost always wrapped in protective plastic or special treated paper, and all metal surfaces coated lightly with gun grease or oil. There are usually multiple labels or tags attached via easy-peel adhesive or short hang-tag strings. The factory papers are sharply pressed and free of bent corners, creases, or tears. Nothing has fingerprints or smudges, nothing is out of place, all minor accessories are present such as sample oil tubes, desiccant packs, or NRA membership discount cards, and everything just smells new.

The first person to handle the gun should be the dealer, assuming he opens it to verify the serial number during logging per federal law, but about half the dealer employees I have seen actually doing the log work just assume they are correct and log them based on the serial numbers marked on the outside of the boxes (not a good idea). Whenever the dealer does open the box to verify, they should be able to do so with minimal intervention such that everything remains new and untouched, as the serial and model numbers are visible through plastic and you can handle the gun with gloves or a gun rag to prevent fingerprints. Unfortunately many dealers do open the guns repeatedly, handle them, put them on display, take them to gun shows, repack them, let customers handle them (usually racking the action numerous times), and in rare cases even test fire them. It is common for the guns to incur at least minor wear during this process, and the pristine new unopened condition is long gone, sometimes with small things being lost, taken, or otherwise going missing.

Most dealers (especially smaller local dealers) feel that the gun is still "new" if it was never sold or transferred, but I personally disagree. To me the gun is only brand new in the box if it was never opened, handled, cycled, etc. outside the factory other than the bare minimum necessary to verify serial number during the transfer and sale process. I can spot handled, opened, or re-packed guns a mile away. When I personally buy a new gun I inspect it carefully before completing the background check form or paying, and if it is not absolutely flawlessly 100% brand new then I either won't buy it, or I'll ask for a different one if they have others in stock, or I'll expect at least a small discount. But then I typically purchase most of my new guns from large distributors or internet wholesalers so this is rarely a problem. The smaller local dealers are much more likely to open, handle, inspect, display, rotate, etc. because they maintain smaller inventory levels and sometimes sit on the guns for months before they sell. And I have seen more than a few cases where a dealer accepts a return from a customer and places it back in inventory for sale as new, assuming the customer never shot it or in some cases knowing that it was shot a few times but they clean it up the best they can to avoid taking the financial loss.

It is hard to be sure what happened to the OP based on only 2 photos but I would bet the gun was NOT absolutely brand new when he got it, and was probably shot a few times or at least handled a good bit. In any case, let the buyer beware, and you have a lot less leverage if you don't inspect the gun before purchasing or leaving the store. Hope that EW offers you an exchange for a brand new gun, or at least a small discount or store credit. Good luck. Edited June 21, 2014 by wileecoyote

[runco]

I have personally inspected and handled literally several hundreds of brand new guns shipped from dozens of manufacturers, distributors, and dealers over the past few years alone. Nearly all of these were never opened new in box and I was the first person to open the boxes. Every single gun that was sold as brand new was in fact brand new (even the cheaper brands or models like Taurus TCP), and it's pretty easy to tell. The box or case usually has a stiff feel free of creases and lacking the looseness that comes with multiple open/closing actions. The guns are almost always wrapped in protective plastic or special treated paper, and all metal surfaces coated lightly with gun grease or oil. There are usually multiple labels or tags attached via easy-peel adhesive or short hang-tag strings. The factory papers are sharply pressed and free of bent corners, creases, or tears. Nothing has fingerprints or smudges, nothing is out of place, all minor accessories are present such as sample oil tubes, desiccant packs, or NRA membership discount cards, and everything just smells new. The first person to handle the gun should be the dealer, assuming he opens it to verify the serial number during logging per federal law, but about half the dealer employees I have seen actually doing the log work just assume they are correct and log them based on the serial numbers marked on the outside of the boxes (not a good idea). Whenever the dealer does open the box to verify, they should be able to do so with minimal intervention such that everything remains new and untouched, as the serial and model numbers are visible through plastic and you can handle the gun with gloves or a gun rag to prevent fingerprints. Unfortunately many dealers do open the guns repeatedly, handle them, put them on display, take them to gun shows, repack them, let customers handle them (usually racking the action numerous times), and in rare cases even test fire them. It is common for the guns to incur at least minor wear during this process, and the pristine new unopened condition is long gone, sometimes with small things being lost, taken, or otherwise go missing. Most dealers (especially smaller local dealers) feel that the gun is still "new" if it was never sold or transferred, but I personally disagree. To me the gun is only brand new in the box if it was never opened, handled, cycled, etc. outside the factory other than the bare minimum necessary to verify serial number during the transfer and sale process. I can spot handled, opened, repacked guns a mile away. When I personally buy a new gun I inspect it carefully before completing the background check form or paying, and if it is not absolutely flawlessly 100% brand new then I either won't buy it, or I'll ask for a different one if they have others in stock, or I'll expect at least a small discount. But then I typically purchase most of my new guns from large distributors or Internet wholesalers so this is rarely a problem. The smaller local dealers are much more likely to open, handle, inspect, display, rotate, etc. because they maintain smaller inventory levels and sometimes sit on the guns for months before they sell. It is hard to be sure what happened to the OP based on only 2 photos but I would bet the gun was NOT absolutely brand new when he got it, and was probably shot a few times or at least handled a good bit. In any case, let the buyer beware, and you have a lot less leverage if you don't inspect the gun before purchasing or leaving the store. Hope that EW offers you an exchange for a brand new gun, or at least a small discount or store credit. Good luck.

A man of wisdom!  Good info.  100% agree. 

[Sam1]

I have personally inspected and handled literally several hundreds of brand new guns shipped from dozens of manufacturers, distributors, and dealers over the past few years alone. Nearly all of these were never opened new in box and I was the first person to open the boxes. Every single gun that was sold as brand new was in fact brand new (even the cheaper brands or models like Taurus TCP), and it's pretty easy to tell. The box or case usually has a stiff feel free of creases and lacking the looseness that comes with multiple open/closing actions. The guns are almost always wrapped in protective plastic or special treated paper, and all metal surfaces coated lightly with gun grease or oil. There are usually multiple labels or tags attached via easy-peel adhesive or short hang-tag strings. The factory papers are sharply pressed and free of bent corners, creases, or tears. Nothing has fingerprints or smudges, nothing is out of place, all minor accessories are present such as sample oil tubes, desiccant packs, or NRA membership discount cards, and everything just smells new. The first person to handle the gun should be the dealer, assuming he opens it to verify the serial number during logging per federal law, but about half the dealer employees I have seen actually doing the log work just assume they are correct and log them based on the serial numbers marked on the outside of the boxes (not a good idea). Whenever the dealer does open the box to verify, they should be able to do so with minimal intervention such that everything remains new and untouched, as the serial and model numbers are visible through plastic and you can handle the gun with gloves or a gun rag to prevent fingerprints. Unfortunately many dealers do open the guns repeatedly, handle them, put them on display, take them to gun shows, repack them, let customers handle them (usually racking the action numerous times), and in rare cases even test fire them. It is common for the guns to incur at least minor wear during this process, and the pristine new unopened condition is long gone, sometimes with small things being lost, taken, or otherwise go missing. Most dealers (especially smaller local dealers) feel that the gun is still "new" if it was never sold or transferred, but I personally disagree. To me the gun is only brand new in the box if it was never opened, handled, cycled, etc. outside the factory other than the bare minimum necessary to verify serial number during the transfer and sale process. I can spot handled, opened, repacked guns a mile away. When I personally buy a new gun I inspect it carefully before completing the background check form or paying, and if it is not absolutely flawlessly 100% brand new then I either won't buy it, or I'll ask for a different one if they have others in stock, or I'll expect at least a small discount. But then I typically purchase most of my new guns from large distributors or Internet wholesalers so this is rarely a problem. The smaller local dealers are much more likely to open, handle, inspect, display, rotate, etc. because they maintain smaller inventory levels and sometimes sit on the guns for months before they sell. It is hard to be sure what happened to the OP based on only 2 photos but I would bet the gun was NOT absolutely brand new when he got it, and was probably shot a few times or at least handled a good bit. In any case, let the buyer beware, and you have a lot less leverage if you don't inspect the gun before purchasing or leaving the store. Hope that EW offers you an exchange for a brand new gun, or at least a small discount or store credit. Good luck.

 

 

Too much trouble looking for smudges and handling marks, i just look for dirt and scratches on the working surfaces.

[TNMTBik3r]

For the comment the gun store should have cleaned the weapon if it was fired, yes but my experience is most stores don't.
At least one LGS in Columbia sells firearms caked in carbon and grime quite often. They don't bother cleaning used firearms before reselling them. Edited June 21, 2014 by jonathon1289

[wileecoyote]

If the gun was ever fired (outside of the factory test case), then it should have been sold as USED, regardless of whether or not it was ever cleaned after shooting.

[bowtieguy]

Ever hear anything from everything weapons?

[wtl]

I haven't heard anything yet. Several days ago I emailed their info email address which is listed on their website. I've heard nothing in response. However, another member here PMed me a different email address and name of the manager, and I finally got an email out today to that one. I'll report back what (if) I hear back.

 

I also promised Dolomite that I'd post a pic of the underneath of the slide. I have taken some pics but for some reason they don't look right--the pictures actually make it look like it's all fouled up, when it isn't, and I don't want to create the wrong impression with a photo. The photos I took of the barrel and mag look exactly like reality, but for some reason the slide pictures look worse. The underneath of the slide is actually in pretty good shape--doesn't suggest that a LOT of rounds have been fired necessarily, but obviously SOME have been.

 

I'll try to get a better picture with a different camera and post it when I can. I've been crazy busy the last few days and haven't had a lot of spare time.

[wtl]

I did get a call back from Pat the manager, who basically says the gun is new and was never shot by them, end of story. So there you have it, for what it's worth.

 

Look your guns over well before you leave the store with them. I know I will from now on.

Edited June 24, 2014 by wtl

[TripleDigitRide]

Doesn't surprise me. While you probably should have looked it over before the purchase, I'm surprised an employee of the shot didn't inspect it before placing it on the shelf.

[hipower]

I won't say I'll never go into EV's shop. But...this, along with their ammo sales earlier, doesn't exactly leave me wanting to go check them out.

 

I am in their area usually once a month and just haven't felt the desire to check them out.

 

And not dissing the shop, the manager and his reported handling of the situation, nor the Op and his dealings with them. Just doesn't make me want to go there.

[KKing]

[quote name="hipower" post="1162164" timestamp="1403632266"]I won't say I'll never go into EV's shop. But...this, along with their ammo sales earlier, doesn't exactly leave me wanting to go check them out. I am in their area usually once a month and just haven't felt the desire to check them out. And not dissing the shop, the manager and his reported handling of the situation, nor the Op and his dealings with them. Just doesn't make me want to go there.[/quote] I share this sentiment

[wtl]

I'm kind of left feeling the same way about them. I'm definitely not angry or anything, because it's entirely possible it came from Taurus that way--I don't really have a good reason to not believe the manager I spoke with. He went to great lengths to explain the gun had been purchased from their distributor (Davidson) in mid April, and that they had no reason to shoot it or rent it out because they have handguns worth up to $2,000 in their rental lineup (as if that means anything.) What he didn't have is any sort of empathy. Some businesses try to build good client relationships, and some businesses care about nothing but moving inventory. EW seems to fall squarely into the latter category.

 

If it was my business I'd have at least started out by saying I understand how someone would wonder about such a dirty gun sold as new, and would have apologized. I basically got the impression he wanted this problem dealt with quickly and for me to know in no uncertain terms that there was no reason for me to even wonder why the gun was so dirty.

 

I can't really say they've done anything wrong, but there is definitely a better way to handle a customer's concerns.

 

I guess now I'll clean this little gun up and hope it shoots well.

Edited June 24, 2014 by wtl

[Troutburger]

I have seen some new guns sent direct from manufactures and distributors that were extremely dirty. Its highly unlikely you bought a used gun. 

 

I bought an upper from Armalite direct, and the bolt was extremely fouled. Seriously looked like it had a few hundred rounds through it.  Wiped it off, ran a patch down the barrel and its been fine ever since. 

 

Clean it up lube it up and shoot it up. 

[hipower]

Glad this is "over" for you. Just go forward and forget about it.

One comment...I bought a used TCP last year from a member here. No box, just the gun. Showed quite a bit of carry and general wear on the exterior.

But it was nowhere like the condition yours came in. And BTW, mine works fine.

Good luck with it.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have bought three new Taurus' and have never seen one that looked that bad, EVER. Glad you are satisfied with their excuse but I am not sure I would have taken it so easily. I do not believe what he said for one second.

 

Just a suggestion, might want to call Taurus and see if it has ever been in for warranty work.

[cannoncocker]

Another suggestion......

 

Davidson's offers a lifetime guarantee through their dealers to the first owner.  Did the lifetime guarantee paperwork accompany the firearm?  If not, you may wish to call Davidson's to see if it has already been registered.