DO YOU THINK THIS IS SAFE?

[maroonandwhite]

Why take the risk? I have a few folks I believe have really believe are safe gun handlers but anyone can make a mistake. This type of mistake could be deadly though. I just can't justify the risk of doing it intentionally. I can wait till the range goes cold.

[TMF]

[quote name="maroonandwhite" post="1153878" timestamp="1401543254"]Why take the risk? I have a few folks I believe have really believe are safe gun handlers but anyone can make a mistake. This type of mistake could be deadly though. I just can't justify the risk of doing it intentionally. I can wait till the range goes cold.[/quote] It really depends on what you're doing. Someone blowing off a drum of 12 gauge at random targets is not a scenario where I would be breaking 90 degrees. A canned range with professionals I've worked with for a while is a different story. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BigK]

Although breaking the 180 rule is nearly unavoidable in tactical/combat maneuvers, friendly-fire accidents happen all the time. Yes, I trust 1 or 2 people that I've shot with enough for me to consider this non-life-threatening. However it's still not safe, especially judging by SOME of the shooting I saw in this video. They aren't taking fire and there is no mission, so why take this kind of risk?

[101]

I'm going to play devils advocate here.

 

All this talk about safety and breaking 180 blah blah...is all very sensible.

 

But,

 

There's a good chance that the same folks saying how stupid and unsafe this might be, are the same people who walk out in front of a moving car in the Walmart parking lot fully expecting (trusting) a complete stranger to stop his moving 3600 lbs. bullet.  

 

Or they will Jay walk when the hand is red trusting that a complete stranger will be paying attention enough to slow down or stop and give them the right away and not get killed!?

 

I understand the need for being safe.  But why do people not trust other people with a gun in their hand but will trust the exact same person to be a fully competent driver operating a much larger and more deadly machine than a gun?

 

 

[TMF]

[quote name="BigK" post="1153891" timestamp="1401544747"]Although breaking the 180 rule is nearly unavoidable in tactical/combat maneuvers, friendly-fire accidents happen all the time. Yes, I trust 1 or 2 people that I've shot with enough for me to consider this non-life-threatening. However it's still not safe, especially judging by SOME of the shooting I saw in this video. They aren't taking fire and there is no mission, so why take this kind of risk?[/quote] I would agree that this is a scenario where it is inherently unsafe to be down range during shooting. I was speaking in generalities regarding shooting whilst people being down range. This appears to be the range at LBL. There are no range safeties there, it is just open to the public. People go out there and trash the range with plastic bottles and cardboard boxes (amongst other things) used for targets. They don't pick up after themselves and make the range look like a dump. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Parrothead]

I'm just really surprised this is being debated on the TGO. I pray anti-gunners don't use a video like this to demonstrate the actions of us self-proclaiming "responsible gun owners" I don't see a positive reason to post this unless it's to show how quickly things can happen at a range and why it's important not to develop tunnel vision. However, if that was the intent, I would think it would have been mentioned in the original post.....

[vontar]

Anyone acting as a range master?

[BigK]

For the record, I was also taught to never run with scissors, but I've ran with a loaded gun in an IDPA match, LOL.

[101]

For years the gun community has screamed and cried "Don't do that, don't do this!".  With good reason and intent.  To be safe.  Things are changing though.  We need to continue to be safe but train for a different era. 

 

How can you react to a shooter or any threat if he's standing near anyone?  How about his bad guy friends that are behind you?  Are you not going to engage them because they are "behind the 180"?  It has been proven time and time and time again that you will fight how you have been training.

 

Police have changed their disarming training because to many cops were disarming a bad guy and giving him his weapon right back to him.  They had trained over and over with a partner handing the weapon back and forth that it becomes instinct.   When you're stressed you will default to the training that you have mastered.  If you have mastered being a safety nazi, then you will fight like a safety nazi.

 

Think about your day.  How many times have you done something that was "unsafe"?  Why are so many people so willing to go through the day and be unsafe in their job or their driving and then freak out when a gun is involved?  OMG!  someone is 10 feet away from my target, close the whole thing done!!  I think a lot of it might be the lack of confidence in their own ability to not control their weapon and where they are shooting.  You don't stop your car in the middle of the road because there is a kid on a bike in front of you do you?  No, you give him a 10 foot berth and keep your car under control and stay focused on the road ahead.  Shooting with someone down range is the same thing.

[Guest Lowbuster]

I have been shooting with my dad since I was about 5, I trust him as a shooter, father and believe he is one of the best shooters I've seen. This is not acceptable even with him.there should be no exception to safety.that's why accidents are called accidents, and if they can be avoided by any means, they should.

[vontar]

And it is when things go wrong in situations like this that make the news.

[TnShooter83]

On a public range YES.

On a private range not really. If the person is trained for that situation.

 

If I were the person down range.

I would not have any person that I did not know could make the shots on my PRIVATE range.

 

 

 

I guess it's the same thing as going to a doctor.

I'm not going to one at my local flea market.

I going to one I trust with a degree and in a physicians office.

[Ted S.]

I wouldn't tell them they can't be stupid. That's their choice, not mine. Sent from somewhere in the cosmos using magic...and bacon.

[molonlabetn]

I have no issue being ahead of the 3-9 line on a hot range, when shooting with people I trust. At a public range though, hell no... Then again, I've also watched a few folks I didn't feel safe even directly behind them while they were on the line.

I'm not talking about doing cartwheels across the firing line, but proper communication and movement between aware and disciplined marksmen (and women)

In a similar token, I would hope that any competent shooter would not hesitate to fire at a bad guy even if I was standing next to the targrt... Safety is often an illusion. Discipline is what prevents unintended results. Edited May 31, 2014 by molonlabetn

[bersaguy]

I'm just really surprised this is being debated on the TGO. I pray anti-gunners don't use a video like this to demonstrate the actions of us self-proclaiming "responsible gun owners" I don't see a positive reason to post this unless it's to show how quickly things can happen at a range and why it's important not to develop tunnel vision. However, if that was the intent, I would think it would have been mentioned in the original post.....

It's probably already on face book so would not worry about it parrot.............jmho

[Clod Stomper]

I'm going to play devils advocate here.

 

All this talk about safety and breaking 180 blah blah...is all very sensible.

 

But,

 

There's a good chance that the same folks saying how stupid and unsafe this might be, are the same people who walk out in front of a moving car in the Walmart parking lot fully expecting (trusting) a complete stranger to stop his moving 3600 lbs. bullet.  

 

Or they will Jay walk when the hand is red trusting that a complete stranger will be paying attention enough to slow down or stop and give them the right away and not get killed!?

 

I understand the need for being safe.  But why do people not trust other people with a gun in their hand but will trust the exact same person to be a fully competent driver operating a much larger and more deadly machine than a gun?

 

Actually, I would trust someone I've trained with in this situation MORE than I trust any moron on the road.  I fully expect most people I see to pull out in front of me/cross the center line/run a red light or stop sign or not see me while I'm walking.  Paranoid?  Not really.  I've avoided many more wrecks (not accidents) than I've been in.

 

Then there are the idiots who are absolutely determined to run into you.  Can't avoid them.

[Spiffy]

Wannabe Yeager video?

[Dolomite_supafly]

Most people would piss themselves if they were part of a live fire room clearing had they not spent a lot of time training for it. It is all about the training and the training is what leads to trust.

[vontar]

This is live fire group training,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCjSzrANnhc

 

Not someone shooting a pop can down range while someone walks onto the field seemingly not paying attention.

 

Whether or not the shooter saw the man on the field or not, range should go cold if it was unplanned. 

 

However I suspect it was made and published to see what the reaction would be.

Edited June 2, 2014 by vontar

[wileecoyote]

There is absolutely NO COMPARISON between professional military or special forces training ("SF Training") and what was shown in the video starting this thread.

"SF Training" (when conducted properly) typically involves the use of specialized ranges (and targets) built specifically for the more complicated scenarios, the use of body armor and other advanced protective gear, highly experienced shooters which have first trained progressively (often remaining with the same team) under safer conditions for many months or years, and the repetitive use of less-than-lethal gear prior to running the same drill with live fire training. And even then, many safeguards are taken to minimize risk as much as possible. In fact the most experienced shooters will be more safe rather than throwing caution to the wind, because they have often seen more than a few accidents or safety violations and thus developed a high regard for their own safety as well as their team. No shooter that is both highly trained and professional would ever willingly violate basic safety rules or do anything remotely like what was shown in that video (changing a target in front of a live firing line, or continuing to shoot while someone else advances forward of the firing line). Those who do are the ones that show up in the news, in court, in jail, and/or in the hospital / morgue. Assuming that you and your close friends are "so good" or "bad-ass" that you don't need to follow basic safety rules is a sure recipe for disaster.

The vast majority of the general public, including most "experienced" shooters and even quite a few LEO have relatively little advanced training and a very small amount of live-fire practice on an ongoing basis. This is why nearly all professional shooting ranges have such tight restrictions on their use, and they insist on very rigid safety rules.

Sure, in an actual life or death scenario you might inadvertently violate a few safety rules in order to protect your life or the lives of others, but if you are trained properly then your training includes how to minimize or avoid unsafe acts even in those situations. And regardless of your training level, you sure as hell don't send your family members or close friends down range to hold bad-guy targets beside and behind themselves so you can practice your live-fire shooting to protect them.

[TMF]

[quote name="wileecoyote" post="1154505" timestamp="1401678916"]There is absolutely NO COMPARISON between professional military or special forces training ("SF Training") and what was shown in the video starting this thread. "SF Training" (when conducted properly) typically involves the use of specialized ranges (and targets) built specifically for the more complicated scenarios, the use of body armor and other advanced protective gear, highly experienced shooters which have first trained progressively (often remaining with the same team) under safer conditions for many months or years, and the repetitive use of less-than-lethal gear prior to running the same drill with live fire training. And even then, many safeguards are taken to minimize risk as much as possible. In fact the most experienced shooters will be more safe rather than throwing caution to the wind, because they have often seen more than a few accidents or safety violations and thus developed a high regard for their own safety as well as their team. No shooter that is both highly trained and professional would ever willingly violate basic safety rules or do anything remotely like what was shown in that video (changing a target in front of a live firing line, or continuing to shoot while someone else advances forward of the firing line). Those who do are the ones that show up in the news, in court, in jail, and/or in the hospital / morgue. Assuming that you and your close friends are "so good" or "bad-ass" that you don't need to follow basic safety rules is a sure recipe for disaster. The vast majority of the general public, including most "experienced" shooters and even quite a few LEO have relatively little advanced training and a very small amount of live-fire practice on an ongoing basis. This is why nearly all professional shooting ranges have such tight restrictions on their use, and they insist on very rigid safety rules. Sure, in an actual life or death scenario you might inadvertently violate a few safety rules in order to protect your life or the lives of others, but if you are trained properly then your training includes how to minimize or avoid unsafe acts even in those situations. And regardless of your training level, you sure as hell don't send your family members or close friends down range to hold bad-guy targets beside and behind themselves so you can practice your live-fire shooting to protect them.[/quote] You're right. As for my own comments I was addressing the statements that there is never an appropriate time to be down range when hot. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dolomite_supafly]

The OP obviously knows and trusts the guys in the video. The target guy was shooting the OP's gun.

[wileecoyote]

[quote name="Dolomite_supafly" post="1154552" timestamp="1401708759"]The OP obviously knows and trusts the guys in the video. The target guy was shooting the OP's gun.[/quote] Even more reason to be safe, you wouldn't want to hurt your friends. Knowing and trusting each other, or being more "experienced" doesn't make it safe or foolproof. Accidents happen, so why cross the line? The best way to treat your close friends is to let the line go cold as soon as they need to reset targets. I love TGO and our members are typically a cut above other forums, however some of the comments and attitudes towards safety in this thread are almost impossible to fathom. I don't think we should plan any TGO range days anytime soon... LOL... :D

[Fitty%]

You do realize that most SOF shooters do this. 

 

And this is why the guy that went down range..went down range lol.

[Fitty%]

I am on this side of the grass today, I pray for the same when I wake up, life is good.

Yall doing OK?

Yeah we are good. Just super busy