Did I make the correct call?

[teecro]

While I don't willfully advocate breaking the law but lets looks at it from another angle....

 

Had the OP not noted the MI plate on the car and made the purchase would any "real" crime have been committed?

 

We all get so used to the gooberment telling us what we can and can't do that we begin to accept it verbatium...

[R_Bert]

Nowadays, it ain't worth the paperwork & cost involved to take any chances. Guns. unlike freedoms - come and go all the time.

[Chucktshoes]

[quote name="R_Bert" post="1152392" timestamp="1401146957"]Nowadays, it ain't worth the paperwork & cost involved to take [i]any[/i] chances. Guns. unlike freedoms - come and go all the time.[/quote] Yeah, freedoms just go.

[DWARREN123]

If it does not feel right then don't do it.

I think you made the right call.

[TrickyNicky]

If it does not feel right then don't do it.
I think you made the right call.

Ultimately this. If it feels hinky, walk away.

[teecro]

Ultimately this. If it feels hinky, walk away.

 

 

This thread is interesting and I hope to learn a little more about TN guns laws here...

 

A couple questions that come to mind are what are the legal requirements in a private face to face cash transaction on a rifle. Being from MI myself I've not made it down to the DMV to get a TN driver's lic and I could very well be your mystery man...LOL Anyway in MI the rifle seller is only obligated to be "reasonably" sure that he is selling to someone who is legal to purchase in the state of MI nothing more nothing less.

 

Same question is posed in the private sale of a pistol? In MI this goes a bit differently in that the buyer is required to present the seller either a permit that he got from a local cop shop or if he has a conceal permit there is another form that the buyer is required to provide to the seller that can gotten as a download or blank copy etc. Again the seller is under no obligation to inspect driver lic etc only to be reasonably sure that the buyer is legit. The buyer carries all obligation to turn in either form as in MI there is a pistol registration system based on the honor system of the buyer....

[Oh Shoot]

....

A couple questions that come to mind are what are the legal requirements in a private face to face cash transaction on a rifle. ...

Same question is posed in the private sale of a pistol?

 

TN doesn't have any more stringent laws than federal:

 

- Seller must not have knowledge or reasonable suspicion that the buyer is not TN resident,  prohibited from owning firearms, or a minor.  Buyer must not have knowledge or reasonable suspicion that firearm is stolen. Gray area IMO: whether buyer knows or has reasonable suspicion that seller is not TN resident.

 

- Can sell either handgun or long gun to 18 year old and older.  No sales to minors, though they may be gifted to them for lawful sporting purposes.

 

IOW, you do not have to ask for ID to check residency or age. But most agree it's a good idea, including myself.

 

That's really about it that I can think of.

 

- OS

Edited May 27, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[KKing]

Edit: Added my own tin foil hattery to the mix...then decided it was too tin foil hat-ish Edited May 27, 2014 by KKing

[Monkeyman2500]

Definitely right call. Sounds shady all the way around.

[DaveTN]

You did the right thing. I doubt it was any kind of LE involvement; they usually buy, not sell. But regardless, who wants involved in any kind of possible legal problem?

We only have three legal requirements for private transfers; age, state of residence and is not known to us to be a felon. The first two are clear cut and our responsibility to check. The third can be a problem to be hashed out in court depending on what everyone involved says.

[LagerHead]

YOU made the right call. The federal government made the wrong one. Who the hell cares what state a person is from? How does that affect what you are going to do with the firearms? 

[KahrMan]

The more I think about it I really don't think anything shady was going on.  I think it was a young kid that just did not know the law.  It's probable that he actually did just move here but since he had a MI DL and MI tags I just felt the old saying "better safe than sorry" applied.

[Smith]

Technically you would have been legally cleared since you asked if he where a TN resident and he responded yes. There is no requirement to "prove" residence in a FTF sales. Even not producing a TN license did not disqualify the sale since there is no legal requirement to prove residence by either parties in a FTF. That is only required during an FFL transfer.

 

That being said, I'd probably have walked away for the same reason you did. It's not worth the risk and playing lawyer on the internet while I'm at work is a lot less consequential than with LE on the side of the road or a judge at the arraignment. ;)

[Dustbuster]

If you dont think you should do something and your intuition is telling you no at the same time,...always best off backing away.......

[DaveTN]

Technically you would have been legally cleared since you asked if he where a TN resident and he responded yes. There is no requirement to "prove" residence in a FTF sales.

So… you sell a handgun to a 16 year old from Alabama and he kills some kids in a school shooting. It’s traced back to you. Your defense is going to be “I asked him if he was over 18 and if he was a Tennessee resident and he said yes; that is all I am required to do” ?? Edited May 27, 2014 by DaveTN

[Smith]

[quote name="DaveTN" post="1152632" timestamp="1401232496"]So… you sell a handgun to a 16 year old from Alabama and he kills some kids in a school shooting. It’s traced back to you. Your defense is going to be “I asked him if he was over 18 and if he was a Tennessee resident and he said yes; that is all I am required to do” ??[/quote] Yes. That is the law unless there was reason to believe otherwise. That is the only defense the law requires and as such is all the law can request. It is a legal defense to the exact scenario you made up and any other unreasonable obscure hypothetical scenario you will make up. Don't know why you try to make these things so complicated. You come up with hypothetical's that are so out of the norm, just to try and make some moral dilemma statement.

[Smith]

Correction, you changed it to handgun and over 18, so no. They would have to be 21. However, if you change the parameters to the op's scenario then my former answer stands.

[Oh Shoot]

Correction, you changed it to handgun and over 18, so no. They would have to be 21...

 

?? Private handgun sale to 18 year old is legit here.

 

- OS

[Smith]

[quote name="Oh Shoot" post="1152657" timestamp="1401237634"]?? Private handgun sale to 18 year old is legit here. - OS[/quote] Yeah, I'm used to FFL rules where it's 21.

[teecro]

So… you sell a handgun to a 16 year old from Alabama and he kills some kids in a school shooting. It’s traced back to you. Your defense is going to be “I asked him if he was over 18 and if he was a Tennessee resident and he said yes; that is all I am required to do” ??

 

Yes officer in my opinion he appeared to be over the age of 18 and he said he lived just down the road so yes I sold him the gun...

[teecro]

?? Private handgun sale to 18 year old is legit here.

 

- OS

 

As it is in many states.....

[runco]

Folks I may be the weird one here and certainly in the ultra low percentages, but the reason I do not sell or trade as a private citizen is that I do not want the risk period, legal risk or a liability risk, or just simple personal responsibility!  I do not want to spend $$$ hiring an attorney to defend either or reading in the paper a gun I once owned was used in a crime.  Flipping a gun to make $50 or $100+ is not worth the risk to me.  Trading a gun for another gun to save or avoid $500 in cash is not worth the risk either.  Every gun I have purchased on a 4473 or not is still in my possession.  I didn't know the risk or respect the risk selling or trading guns until I was a gun dealer 20 years ago and I have seen for myself the risk that can occur.  My kids or heirs will enjoy some toys one day!  

[Good_Steward]

So A guy was selling a couple of rifles on Facebook.  I made a deal to buy two of them, a TC Ventrure in .270 and a Remington BDL Enhanced in .30-06.  This guys profile was not really filled out.  That made me a little suspicious.  I searched for the pics he used and could not find them anywhere except in his ad.  That made me feel a little better.  We agreed  to meet today at noon in a very public place.
 
As I am pulling up, with video recording on my phone, I notice the vehicle has Michigan plates.  Crap, this is not starting off well.  First thing I ask him is if he lives in TN.  He said he just moved here a month ago.  I asked him if he had a TNDL. No.  Do you have any mail or anything to proves you live in Tennessee. No.  I told him face to face transactions are legal but only if both people are residents of TN.  He said I promise I am living here now.  I said without proof since you have Michigan Dl I could not buy his rifles.
 
He genuinely looked surprised when I told him I couldn't buy them.  I hope this was just a case of a young guy not knowing the law and was not a scam.  I am bummed because I really wanted those rifles.
 
Since he could not prove he lived in TN, did I make the correct call in passing up this deal?

I'll leave it to the legal scholars on here to debate the legality of the transaction, but if you were wary or uncomfortable at all then I would say yes, you made the right call regardless of law. Of course, it could be argued that you were only wary because there are thousands of laws on the books regarding the transactions that have made us, as gun owners, ridiculously paranoid.

[tnhawk]

The seller had the option to do a transfer thru an FFL for a small fee.  The risk was too great for you to have done anything else.

[RC3]

Thats odd, but I cant complain with the course of action you took. Always better safe than sorry. I have been extremely lucky and have dealt with some amazing people.