Cc at the gun show

[Fallguy]

JLowe, you said in post #9 they couldn't stop you from going into the gun show armed. In post #11 I agree with you on that fact. But I also posed the question, couldn't they stop you from entering period just as they could anyone else? I thought I was courteous and simply posting a specific topic for discussion.

You said in post #28 that they couldn't refuse you entry because you were an officer. You also said my home is not "open to the public" implying that the law is different for private property that is open to the public. Then you proceeded inform us of how you are special person from the rest of us and that if we wanted to be special as well we could join our local agencies.

In post #35 I tried to explain that I wasn't talking about whether a LEO could be armed or not, but simply whether he can be denied entry onto private property.

I have never addressed either way about whether LEOs or HCP holders should be allowed to carry at all times. But for the record I agree with your point of view on this.

As far as my store scenario goes...I agree that if I were to discriminate against someone based on certain things, you may have a lawsuit, but I am not required to give a reason as to why I want to deny entry on my private property to someone. So if I simply say, "I do not want you here." I'm not sure how you could prove what my reasoning was. You still mention being armed....and I am still trying to say that is irrelevant to my point.

I hate that you feel this has been attack on you and/or LEOs in general. That is not my intention. I was attempting to simply discuss and debate the rules of private property when it comes to LEOs.

I know it is hard and thankless job, I appreciate you for undertaking it.

[molonlabetn]

...Now, state or federal law does not require me to take action for crimes in progress when I am not working, but my own moral code forces me too. You see, if I happen to be walking through the parking lot of the alcohol serving establishment you just left and some individuals are beating you down to the ground, I could just walk on by and do nothing, because the law allows. In reality I will intervene and do everything in my power to help you, unless we are on your private property, at which point I will not be there, because you don't want armed off duty LEO's coming onto your property. Now, I am done with this exercise in futility, because you are of your own mind and I am no longer going to waste my time with your lack of respect and indignation towards LEO's. Have a good day sir.

The scenario you described is just as valid for an armed non-LEO. You are not the only one with a 'moral code', sir... The point is simply that the law does not recognize either of our 'moral codes' as an authority... it simply sets forth specific limitations which are largely similar, as Fallguy is pointing out. The only exception is when you are on-duty and acting in an official capacity. Pointing that out is not 'disrespect' or 'indignation'. All responsible civilians (yes, LEOs are civilians) should be able to carry anywhere they have a right to be... not some kind of class-structured double-standard based on a person's profession (which is ludicrous, when you stop and think about it).

[DaveTN]

The scenario you described is just as valid for an armed non-LEO. You are not the only one with a 'moral code', sir... The point is simply that the law does not recognize either of our 'moral codes' as an authority... it simply sets forth specific limitations which are largely similar, as Fallguy is pointing out. The only exception is when you are on-duty and acting in an official capacity. Pointing that out is not 'disrespect' or 'indignation'. All responsible civilians (yes, LEOs are civilians) should be able to carry anywhere they have a right to be... not some kind of class-structured double-standard based on a person's profession (which is ludicrous, when you stop and think about it).

I have asked this question before and I am not sure I have ever got a good answer. This is a question to guys that know Tennessee law; not an argument.

As a Police Officer in Illinois there was no “On-duty†or “Off-duty†when it came to firearms or Police Powers. City and County jurisdictions were more a courtesy than the law. Our (sworn Police Officers) jurisdictions were the borders of the state.

To be a Police Officer in Illinois, whether it be a City Police Officer, County Deputy, or a State Trooper; you had to be certified by the state as a sworn Police Officer. This did not included auxiliary deputies or cops and did not included corrections officers. They operated under city or county rules.

We were required to act when we saw a person in danger. Is that different in Tennessee? It’s hard to act if you are unarmed. We carried our guns everywhere… bars, hospitals, court, everywhere. The only place I remember having to disarm was to enter the jail.

I am no longer a cop, but would probably act if I saw a person in danger. You say that LEO’s are civilians in Tennessee. So if I decided to act am I acting with the same qualified immunity that a Police Officer has?

Put whatever name you like on them but, Police Officers and Civilians are no different in the eyes of the law?

[Guest tcampbell]

LEO's are civilians regardless of the state as far as I am concerned. They are not above the law just because they are LEO's...though some tend to think they are.

[Guest JLowe]

In TN Off duty means that your just not earning money at the time. As soon as you reveal yourself to be an officer, your acting in your official capacity and are then considered On duty.

I have never stated that I was above any one else, others seems to feel that way though. Jealousy rearing its ugly head maybe? Alot of people seem to think that LEO's feel above others, we don't. We do get the joy of seeing how people live their lives on a daily basis.

I enjoy my job and most all that comes with it. And yes, I am a very prideful person and put that into my work.

The reality of all this has been this. Everyone wants to feel equal no matter what they do, but in reality we are not. People always want to feel on equal footing with those who are charged with enforcing the laws of the land and we are not. Leo's have to make decisions in a matter of seconds, wrong or right. Then everyone gets plenty of time to review those decisions and judge one way or the other. We get to see the horrid things of life on a daily basis and then are not supposed to be affected by them when we deal with all of those who live within the laws of the land.

I make enemies on a daily basis doing my job. I have sent people to prison for most of their natural lives, taken away their possessions, and in some cases their kids. The law regarding LEO's carrying allows us to protect ourselves and our families when we are out of uniform. Those who have never worn a badge will never understand what we deal with. We are the most unwanted persons on the land, until people need us.

Picture this, you go to a call, when you get there, a little girl (7) has been beaten nearly to death, the "father" is so high he doesn't comprehend what he did wrong, the "mother" is passed out and uncaring. You do what is required by the law and you do it to the best of your ability. Then 10 minutes after you leave the scene you meet the average citizen who happened to violate a minor traffic law. Now, how courteous do you feel at that time?

Remember this, when you meet a LEO, you never know what he/she has just had to deal with and maybe a kind word or greeting will be what they need to remember that not all the world is bad, just a small few.

Yes, I am a Lion in this jungle. I will swallow my fear and take actions where others flee. I will stand up for righteousness and law. No, I won't hate man for what they do to each other.

And the TCA that applies to officers carrying their weapon at all times as set forth by the State of TN is 39-17-1315.

[molonlabetn]

Nobody here is trying to belittle your profession... that's not even close to the point.

What we are discussing is the inherent right of any person to have the means to defend themselves, anywhere they have the right to be, or have been invited to be.

As far as the current law is concerned, it is wrong for any of us to be subject to the array of inconsistent restrictions which we are presented with. But the fact remains that those restrictions are very similar, if not identical, when we have assumed our personal lives.

When you are on the job, however, of course the fact you are carrying shouldn't be a concern anywhere you are authorized to be. You have a job to do at that point. Absent that, however, there's no distinction.

[Guest JLowe]

Nobody here is trying to belittle your profession... that's not even close to the point.

What we are discussing is the inherent right of any person to have the means to defend themselves, anywhere they have the right to be, or have been invited to be.

As far as the current law is concerned, it is wrong for any of us to be subject to the array of inconsistent restrictions which we are presented with. But the fact remains that those restrictions are very similar, if not identical, when we have assumed our personal lives.

When you are on the job, however, of course the fact you are carrying shouldn't be a concern anywhere you are authorized to be. You have a job to do at that point. Absent that, however, there's no distinction.

That was the point I was stating to begin with. I believe that there should not be so many restrictions on HCP holders. And yes there is a distinction for me whether I am "off duty" or not. Because I am never really off duty, there are just times when I am not getting paid. Even when I am "off duty" I am stilled required to be in possession of my weapon at all times as set forth by the TCA 39-17-1315. That is why when you see those signs preventing HCP holders from carrying legally, there is a LEO exception, it is because that they cannot deny a LEO On or Off duty from carrying. I believe the exception is improper, I believe that HCP holders should have the ability to defend themselves and their families at all times well. The originality of my post was in that context. Everyone seems to think that LEO's are not for HCP's, when we are not. Its because that we do what we do that we feel that everybody should be allowed to carry with fewer restrictions. Those persons could possibly save my life or the life of others. I believe that the laws should be consistent and not as restrictive. It is because of the rights of property owners that HCP holders are restricted to where you can carry, but not arrest power LEO's. I am not trying to argue or make myself appear better by no means at all, but I do know when and where I can carry on or off duty, because there is truly no distinction according to the Supreme Court.

[Guest c.a.s.]

No rights involved.

Cops are part of a “Special Groupâ€, just as you are.

It is illegal to carry a gun in Tennessee and 97% (or the vast majority) would be arrested if caught doing it.

You, on the other hand have purchased a special privilege from the state. You spent 8 hours (maybe) smoking and joking at the range and paid the state $115 so you could lug a gun around.

A cop, on the other hand has spent far more time training and meeting state mandated requirements. Carrying for him is a job requirement. However, it appears that Tennessee does put some restrictions on cops depending on whether or not they are “on dutyâ€. I don’t think most states make that distinction.

No one should be handling a loaded firearm in any building while groups of people are around; that includes cops and HCP holders. If you don’t check weapons at the door of a gun show someone will have an AD/ND.

Because you are an "ONly ONe" responsible enough to carry a gun, correct?

Someone needs to read the Bill of Rights again, as well at the State Constitution.

[Guest c.a.s.]

Oh please… So all those that stayed in LE have lower standards or principals than you?

If your general demeanor for civilians means anything...

[creeky]

...the pay is crap, people don't want you around in general, the pay is crap, and you can get shot just for pulling somebody over for a traffic violation. So, come on and join us, you'll love it...

Not word for word "JLowe"... but man that brings back some memories! LOL!

I used to hear almost that exact thing from my Granddad and StepDad.

(Both Retired LEOs.)

[DaveTN]

Because you are an "ONly ONe" responsible enough to carry a gun, correct?

Someone needs to read the Bill of Rights again, as well at the State Constitution.

RIF

Go back and read what you quoted me as saying and let us all know where in any part of that I said I should be allowed to carry a gun into a gun show.

It is unlawful for 97% of the population of this state to carry a firearm. What part of either Constitution do you want me to read? What part of either Constitution are you claiming gives you a right to possess a firearm anywhere off your property?

[Guest JLowe]

Not word for word "JLowe"... but man that brings back some memories! LOL!

I used to hear almost that exact thing from my Granddad and StepDad.

(Both Retired LEOs.)

And just think, the pay has actually gotten better. In my 10 years it has went up almost 20%..... Thats almost as close as the cost of living going up over the same time frame.

[Guest slothful1]

I said that when you open you property to the public, your ability to restrict persons must fall with in state and federal laws. If you chose to see fit that you deny me entrance just because I am an officer of the law, I will chose to see fit that I file a discrimination lawsuit against you and your company and I can promise that public opinion and law will be on my side.

What law? Where is it illegal to discriminate against LEOs? I have never heard them included in the legally protected classes with regard to places of public accommodation (i.e., race, religion, national origin, disability).

[Guest JLowe]

What law? Where is it illegal to discriminate against LEOs? I have never heard them included in the legally protected classes with regard to places of public accommodation (i.e., race, religion, national origin, disability).

Well, I have a disability that stems from my public service. So, go ahead and try me. Did I also mention that I am 1/3 Cherokee? See in my mind you would be discriminating against me for those reasons and that is what I will claim. You may feel that owning a open to the public venue means that you get to choose who comes and goes, it does not. It is best to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.....

[Guest bang-flash]

Today at the Nashvegas gun show the guy in front of me attempted to unload his revolver at the door. Need less to say he was told to go outside and try again.

Signage at the ticket booth clearly indicates no loaded weapons allowed.