Home invasion scenerios

[bersaguy]

Let see some thoughts on these scenarios. 

 

#1)    You live in a 3 story house including a finished basement den / recreation area. You and your wife are down in the rec room watching your big screen. You decide to go up to the kitchen and get both of you a soft drink.
As you reach the top step from the basement you think you hear something or someone on the third floor were all the sleeping bedrooms totaling 3 are located. You quietly close door to basement You know your wife also access to a fire arm in rec room.  You locate your pistol kept in a table drawer at top of stairs from the basement and you go up to third floor
were you discover a intruder is going through your dresser drawers. You have a clear shot at his back. In order to shoot him you have to decide if you can legally shoot him in the back on a third floor level. There is no escape route except past you. Do you shoot him in the back or do you confront the intruder by telling him if he moves you will shoot him and hope he gives up. If he does not and turns to face you but you do not see a weapon, do you feel your life or your wife that is still in the basement life is in danger and then do you shoot?



Second Scenario
#2))Same as above but you have heard a noise on third level and you have your gun. Do you make your way up stairs expecting to find someone in your home? If so have you given thought to the fact there may be more than one intruder? If so do call 911 and wait at the second level base of stairway to third floor out of sight until back up arrives or do you make the decision to go up and confront the intruder/intruders knowing the police are in route?

[Tobashadow]

If they made the choice to enter and do anything but hit the floor or jump out a window when confronted I'd consider them making the choice to fight me. Any forward movement towards me at that point would need to be dealt with. If you dialed 911 before confronting them then it could be seen as looking for a fight if you search for them when no one is in immediate danger. Edited May 8, 2014 by Tobashadow

[wileecoyote]

If you have any reason to believe someone is already in your house (in which case you failed to have adequate security measures in place), you immediately get yourself and any loved ones to the safest place possible (such as a barricaded locked room behind proper cover), and then arm any adults that are properly trained / equipped, and then call 911. Inform them of your address, describe the situation (including location / description of all family members, and who is armed), and you wait on the phone while guarding your safe room entrance(s). You don't go searching the house looking for trouble, and you don't leave family members unprotected. You also don't go outside or move through the house unless you can establish it is safe to do so, as additional or unknown threats may be waiting. If a threat emerges or advances near your safe room, you call out loudly that you are armed and will shoot to defend yourself if needed, ordering them to leave immediately, and that police are on the way. If the threat persists or escalates then you do only what is necessary to defend your lives, not to protect property or chase them out or advance on them or capture them.

[runco]

Stand your ground, hold the intruder at bay until the intruder makes a decision that he will regret while simultaneously informing the wife to call 911!

[nightrunner]

I would say hello so he would now be facing me. Then clear the rest of the house quickly.

[peejman]

Call 911 on speaker, find a spot with good cover, and tell them to GTFO.

You didn't specify whether anyone else (kids or otherwise) might be upstairs too. If so, that changes things a bit. Edited May 8, 2014 by peejman

[Guest theconstitutionrocks]

Couple of thoughts...

 

1. Are there any other "friendlies" in the house, if so where, and are they in potential danger/line of fire.

2. Are there any other bad guys

3. Where is your best covered concealed position that provides good fields of fire (keeping in mind what's BEHIND and BESIDE your potential target), and does it prevent YOU being ambushed

4. Is the bad guy(s) possibly armed.....with what?

5. Body armor? (you/them?) center mass handgun rounds?

6. Are you rural, sub-urban, LE arrival time?

7. Didn't your alarm system and door hardening/driveway sensors and cameras give you early warning?

 

Irrespective of all the above, if it comes down to it...unless there are other friendlies in danger, DO NOT go up the stairs. get 911 on the line. Wait in a covered/concealed position on the main level that he has to go back through to get out of the home. You and the wife seperate and interlock fields of fire and when he comes down and you order him to the floor, if he so much as blinks the wrong way he dies right there. Personally If I have access to an "assault weapon" clone or a shotgun you better believe I'm going to have it. I don't want to risk parity (handgun vs handgun)...I don't know how many there are, what they have, or what they are wearing. Over-penetration at this point takes a distant back seat to the threat.

 

And..obtw, consider the bad guy's mindset...he was probably very much on guard entering the dwelling, now that he is escaping his guard is probably down which gives you a tactical advantage.

Edited May 8, 2014 by theconstitutionrocks

[molonlabetn]

Unless there is a loved one upstairs who I need to defend, I'm not going up there after a bad guy. I'll be behind cover on the ground floor waiting for the police to arrive or for the intruder to enter the funnel of the stairs, coming towards me.

[TNMTBik3r]

I wouldn't shoot in the back. Unless he was standing over a bed with a sleeping friendly, holding a weapon or unidentifiable object that could be taken as a weapon. At that point shooting would be warranted.

Otherwise shooting in the back, while possibly justifiable, could open up some legal issues with your defense IMO.

Also consider mistaken identity - likely only applies if you have older kids but what if they are going through the drawer looking for something you took from them, and you shoot mistaking for an intruder.

In your scenario if no friendly was upstairs I would secure the downstairs, call 911, and wait at the bottom of the steps quietly behind cover.

[bersaguy]

Thank you for all of the fine replies. I should have made the house and persons in the house more clear. The reason I went through this scenario questions is because my daughters ex husband and father of his children and his wife went through this exact situation 3 nights ago about 9PM. They do live alone, just him and his new wife so no other family in house. He and wife both have HCP's and went through several other defense type classes.But still evidently didn't learn enough. They don't have much in the way of security beyond dead bolts and door locks and do like in an up scale neighborhood.His home is laid out like in scenario. He didn't handle any of it right beyond calling 911 right after retrieving his gun from the table in case he did need to defend himself. I am assuming that the perps had no clue they were even home. Both vehicles were in the garage with door closed. The basement area is almost totally sound proof from the rest of the house if door going down stairs is closed which it was. When he went up stairs to fetch them something to drink while watching a movie he heard a nose up stairs on 3rd level and this is where the stupidity kicked in. He retrieved his gun from the drawer dialed 911 and told the police his address and that he has an intruder in their home. He was told to find a secure location for him and his family and that patrol cars were in route. He made the decision to go up stairs and see who was up there with gun in hand. The way the 3rd level is laid out you can see into two rooms from top of stairs but not 3rd room or bathroom. he saw a young man going through the drawers search for valuables. His back was to the door and Ex did have a clear shot at intruders back and could have propped him but before he was able to do anything the lights went out for him. A second intruder eased up from behind and hit him in the back of the head with a trophy from one of the other rooms and down he went. His wife heard sirens and got up to go upstairs wondering where he was and she got knocked down by three perps at the bottom of the stair way as they were making their escape. They were all three of a Latino or Spanish descent. They ran from the home and climbed into a van with a forth person behind the wheel and made the great escape. The police arrived about 3 minutes later and called for any ambulance for the EX as he was still about half unconscious and was bleeding pretty bad from a large gash to the back of his head which required about 9 stitches. An alert neighbor that had been out walking his dog noticed the van and knew it was out of place in that neighborhood and had already gotten the license tag number and saw the guy behind the wheel when the other 3 came running and jumped in it and left. He was able to give a description of the driver and what the clothing was that the 3 running to the van were wearing. Van tag was from Kentucky.

  I was caught back by what the lead investigator told my ex son in law should have done. He said my ex son in law could have legally shot the intruder in the back because of the location. Third floor which leaves no avenue of retreat by the perp except back past him putting his life in danger. He also said by shooting the first one it would have sent the other two into a retreat mode knowing there was an armed homeowner and he was shooting the intruders. I think the investigator gave him some bad information but that is what he told Ex and his wife. He said if there is an intruder in the home with no avenue of escape other than coming towards you, at that point your life is in danger and you can legally defend yourself and that al taking place on 3rd floor he could have popped the perp in the back. As of now I have not heard whether they have caught the bad guys or not. Thanks to all of you for your replies. He is looking at alarm systems with door tones that sound every time a door is opened in the house.   

[JayC]

I'm not going to get say what I'd do... but I will talk about principles...  

 

The second somebody breaks into your house while you're there, they pose a risk of death or serious bodily injury...  so much so that we have a castle doctrine in TN law that assumes any forcible entry into your home meets that threshold.

 

Why on earth would you give up the element of surprise to a would be attacker in your home?  First rule, use every advantage given to you.

 

Eliminate the threat as quickly as possible, and call the police to come investigate...  Unless something else is going on, no DA in TN is going to charge an otherwise law abiding citizen with anything for shooting an intruder inside the bedroom area of your home...  won't matter if they were shot in the back, or in the front... if they had a weapon or not...

 

But as always, the best bet is to move to the nearest bathroom, or if that isn't available inside a room with a single entry and hold the fatal funnel until help arrives.

 

If you do end up clearing the house yourself, firing is often an effective way to drop one, and if there are any other bad guys, cause them to run away...  If they stand and fight after you drop one, they were likely going to kill you to begin with.

Edited May 8, 2014 by JayC

[peejman]

Told him to shoot the guy in the back?!?  :squint:    Um.... no.  Just ask that other guy about his "clean finishing shot".  :down:

[bersaguy]

My decision would have been to dial 911 and got them coming and then taken up position where I could have stopped 1 or more at bottom of stairway from 3rd level if they attempted to leave before police arrived. If necessary I would have made it clear to them all, face down on the floor or get shot. If any of them refused I would have made an example of him with a bullet to the knee cap..............jmho

[bersaguy]

Told him to shoot the guy in the back?!?  :squint:    Um.... no.  Just ask that other guy about his "clean finishing shot".  :down:

Well, I don't think it would be videoed or recorded or premeditated in this case. It was just straight up home invasion but Ex son in law did not do the right thing by going up stairs. Should have waited for the good guys to arrive and do that. Had he done that all but maybe the van driver would have been caught............jmho

[TNMTBik3r]

That could have ended better, but could have been a lot worse as well.
At least they are alright, blow to the head aside.

[TMF]

I don't think these "can I shoot scenarios" are productive. It is quite simple: are you in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm or that of others? I have no moral objection to shooting someone for breaking in, however, I don't want to deal with the legal issues resulting from a shoot if I can avoid it. I don't believe the question people should ask themselves is "can I shoot"; it should be "should I shoot." If you have to wonder if you "can" shoot, then the answer is you shouldn't. If you are in fear for your life or the life of a loved one, whether you can or can't is moot, is it not? When the alternative is death, what person would waste time considering what a jury will say? Not me. So these "can I shoot" scenarios are, in my opinion, a display of a trigger happy mentality. Not that the death of a criminal would bother me, I just think folks need to understand what they're actually asking when these threads come up. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bersaguy]

I don't think these "can I shoot scenarios" are productive. It is quite simple: are you in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm or that of others? I have no moral objection to shooting someone for breaking in, however, I don't want to deal with the legal issues resulting from a shoot if I can avoid it. I don't believe the question people should ask themselves is "can I shoot"; it should be "should I shoot." If you have to wonder if you "can" shoot, then the answer is you shouldn't. If you are in fear for your life or the life of a loved one, whether you can or can't is moot, is it not? When the alternative is death, what person would waste time considering what a jury will say? Not me. So these "can I shoot" scenarios are, in my opinion, a display of a trigger happy mentality. Not that the death of a criminal would bother me, I just think folks need to understand what they're actually asking when these threads come up. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have no doubt about what my decision would be in most any scenario in my home. If a stranger or two are in my home there is no thought beyond if I get a shot and I am sure of my target I'm taking it. We will discuss my decision later after the smoke clears..........jmho

[molonlabetn]

I'm less concerned with wondering if I CAN shoot in a given situation, and more with being prepared to if I MUST... If I use deadly force, you can bet it wasn't a choice.

In the real events described, I only know 2 things... I wouldn't have gone upstairs, and there would have been some buckshot discharged when they came down.

[peejman]

Well, I don't think it would be videoed or recorded or premeditated in this case. It was just straight up home invasion but Ex son in law did not do the right thing by going up stairs. Should have waited for the good guys to arrive and do that. Had he done that all but maybe the van driver would have been caught............jmho

 

 

If you shoot someone in the back there will be questions to be answered.  I'd prefer to avoid those questions. 

 

In the case I referenced, even if the guy hadn't videoed it there would have been questions.  It's obvious when someone gets shot at point blank range while lying on the floor. 

[Hershmeister]

Glad he only got bonked on the head - could have been a lot worse

[bersaguy]

Glad he only got bonked on the head - could have been a lot worse

Yep, could have been very much worse and if there is a next time you can bet he will not hesitate to do business and deal with the questions when the smoke clears. They do have a few leads on the bad guys. Their last known address is up in Frankin, Kentucky but chances of them being there probably slim to none. That same van has been used in several other home invasions so either they are very brave or very stupid but either way sooner or that van is going to be spotted during a break in and someone will most likely get shot and maybe killed. Lets hope it's a bad guy or two that needs lead removed........jmho

[Spiffy]

Others may feel differently and maybe I'm just a big ole wussy.......but discovering an unknown person in my home would certainly cause me to be in fear of death or great bodily harm.

 

Who are they?

What do they want?

Are they just here to steal or will they kill me/us to make sure there are no witnesses?

Are my kids alright?

Are they alone?

How did they get in and are there more coming?

 

All these are questions you would ask yourself if you discovered an intruder into your home. And all are asked outta fear.

 

 

 

[bersaguy]

Others may feel differently and maybe I'm just a big ole wussy.......but discovering an unknown person in my home would certainly cause me to be in fear of death or great bodily harm.

 

Who are they?

What do they want?

Are they just here to steal or will they kill me/us to make sure there are no witnesses?

Are my kids alright?

Are they alone?

How did they get in and are there more coming?

 

All these are questions you would ask yourself if you discovered an intruder into your home. And all are asked outta fear.

I do agree with you Spiffy but with my situation it's just me and my old dog and if I come home and find someone in my house or if someone comes in my door uninvited they will learn just how unsociable I can become real quick. Back in the old west I think they played a game called Lets see you dance and they began shooting near the persons feet. With the cost of ammo today my game is called Dodge the Red Hot Lead if you can!!! I have a lot of friends come and go from my house about every day placing bait orders or picking up baits and I don't keep my storm door locked and every one of them knows the code words to yell when they open the door if I am in the bait room and can't hear a knock. They don't come in till I holler back either. A lot of guys call me while parked in my driveway to let me know they are coming in. Wrong pass word and it could get ugly. Most of the ones that call me forgot what it is so they call............. :up: :up:

[Erik88]

If someone is in my home then chances are I'm going to shoot at them. When was the last time a homeowner was charged with shooting an intruder(in a non-communist state)? I've seen numerous stories where the homeowner wasn't charged even though the perp was unarmed.

 

I really don't think it's going to make a difference if you shoot someone in the back. That person could turn around in .02 seconds and shoot you. 

[Ladyhay]

[quote name="molonlabetn" post="1147031" timestamp="1399554127"]Unless there is a loved one upstairs who I need to defend, I'm not going up there after a bad guy. I'll be behind cover on the ground floor waiting for the police to arrive or for the intruder to enter the funnel of the stairs, coming towards me.[/quote] Pretty much that. Unless my babies are upstairs then crazy mama bear would kick in and I'd be going to get my babies. If such a scenario presented a need to use the weapon to get my babies then it happens that way, but if I can get said babies and get back to the safe area then that is preferred. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk