Possession of handgun while under the influence

[Im Neero]

How is the officer going to know you have a carry permit? Other than if he goes around asking everyone he encounters to see their carry permits, I don't see how the passenger having a carry permit would even come into play.

[DaveTN]

How is the officer going to know you have a carry permit? Other than if he goes around asking everyone he encounters to see their carry permits, I don't see how the passenger having a carry permit would even come into play.

Go read the first post and all your questions will be answered.

[Guest Revelator]

HCP is not a right. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought you were required to show your HCP to a Police Officer on request. I would think that “Is there a weapon in the vehicle now?†would be the next logical question. Are you saying that you think you have a right to not answer that question and still have your HCP remain in good standing?

Why would they revoke your permit for not answering a question? They're not going to do that; it's just a question. Now you're right, a permit holder must show the permit on demand from law enforcement, but I do not think they will lose their permit if they refuse to do anything else. And I'm not advocating that people just refuse to answer questions. Probably no better way to arouse an officer's suspicions. If someone finds themself in this situation they're going to have to say something. So what should it be? Heck I don't know, but they should probably just politely lie. Politely say there are no guns, then politely refuse a search of the vehicle.

[DaveTN]

Why would they revoke your permit for not answering a question? They're not going to do that; it's just a question.

I don’t know; I’m asking a question. I can’t believe that the law would require you to show your permit on demand of a LEO, but would allow you to stand silent on where the weapon is. That would create a danger to the Officer.

Now you're right, a permit holder must show the permit on demand from law enforcement, but I do not think they will lose their permit if they refuse to do anything else.

We need to know that. We need to see it written in the form of a law, AG opinion, or case law. Don’t we?

If someone finds themself in this situation they're going to have to say something. So what should it be? Heck I don't know, but they should probably just politely lie. Politely say there are no guns, then politely refuse a search of the vehicle.

We are HCP holders. Unlike ordinary citizens we live at the foot of the cross and don’t commit crimes. (I don’t know if that is true, but I’ve read it here many times ) And we especially don’t lie to cops on a traffic stop about whether or not there are guns in our vehicles.

[Fallguy]

Ok....so here is what will really happen...

You and your wife will both be arrested. Your car towed and seized. The handgun seized. Your wife will be offered a deal to testify against you and she will accept since she is tired of driving your drunk butt around anyway. You will got to jail for 11 months and 29 days and become a cell bi**h to "bubba" and your wife will divorce you and then marry the LEO that stopped you in the first place.

[Im Neero]

Go read the first post and all your questions will be answered.

Yea, I read it, but why would he run a license check in the first place to see that you have a carry permit? Do police normally ask to see ID from the passenger? It seems like you're trying to create a pretty implausible scenario.

[EMTRN]

The passenger in the case presented will almost never come into play. I can't see any reason why your name would even come up. An unloaded gun, out of your reach, ammo separate, is not anything I would worry about.

[EMTRN]

With all the LEO's who visit TGO, and none of them have a clear answer on this?

Cuz we are at work while you are at home on Sunday!

[TripleDigitRide]

Cuz we are at work while you are at home on Sunday!

We thank you for your amazing service.

[Guest shadow12]

Well, I will get this started. I am the police, and I arrest every one. It makes no difference if you are guilty of a crime or not, I just do it because I can.

Is that the right answer?

I can't believe this scenario. If an officer stops your wife for speeding, he will ask her for her license, unless you really show your a$$, he will never ask to see yours'. And if you do show your a$$, then you shouldn't be drinking anyway.

The law says that you can't be in possesion while intoxicated, if I could arrest you for this in your home, then I would have had to arrest my self and my wife at some point in our lives. And everytime that I went to a disturbance at a home where there was a drunk person, I wouldn't have to wait for them to go outside to arrest them. If you have placed the firearm into the rear of the vehicle and cleared it, the odds are no officer is going to screw with you.

I realize that no one has started cop bashing in this thread, but I figured I would give a reason to those of you that are just looking for one.

Let the bashing begin.

[EMTRN]

The best answer is, DON'T SPEED! That way neither one of us has to think about this little problem.

[EMTRN]

We thank you for your amazing service.

I wish it was amazing, it's really pretty boring most of the time.

[TripleDigitRide]

Well, I will get this started. I am the police, and I arrest every one. It makes no difference if you are guilty of a crime or not, I just do it because I can.

Is that the right answer?

I can't believe this scenario. If an officer stops your wife for speeding, he will ask her for her license, unless you really show your a$$, he will never ask to see yours'. And if you do show your a$$, then you shouldn't be drinking anyway.

The law says that you can't be in possesion while intoxicated, if I could arrest you for this in your home, then I would have had to arrest my self and my wife at some point in our lives. And everytime that I went to a disturbance at a home where there was a drunk person, I wouldn't have to wait for them to go outside to arrest them. If you have placed the firearm into the rear of the vehicle and cleared it, the odds are no officer is going to screw with you.

I realize that no one has started cop bashing in this thread, but I figured I would give a reason to those of you that are just looking for one.

Let the bashing begin.

[Guest db99wj]

"You have the right to remain silent......but not the ability." Ron "Tater Salad" White

[mdlave]

This was not clear in the original post, but when the registration of the vehicle was run, the registered owner (who is present) shows as having a HCP. I have no insight into how fancy cop databases work, but that is what was suggested by the OP.

I do agree that without the HCP flag, all this other stuff would be a nonissue, and the folks would just be on their way home.

[Oh Shoot]

Well, I will get this started. I am the police, and I arrest every one. It makes no difference if you are guilty of a crime or not, I just do it because I can.

Is that the right answer?

I can't believe this scenario. If an officer stops your wife for speeding, he will ask her for her license, unless you really show your a$$, he will never ask to see yours'. And if you do show your a$$, then you shouldn't be drinking anyway.

The law says that you can't be in possesion while intoxicated, if I could arrest you for this in your home, then I would have had to arrest my self and my wife at some point in our lives. And everytime that I went to a disturbance at a home where there was a drunk person, I wouldn't have to wait for them to go outside to arrest them. If you have placed the firearm into the rear of the vehicle and cleared it, the odds are no officer is going to screw with you.

I realize that no one has started cop bashing in this thread, but I figured I would give a reason to those of you that are just looking for one.

Let the bashing begin.

Excellent post.

That's pretty much what I postulated way back in this thread.

Be safe out there.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Yea, I read it, but why would he run a license check in the first place to see that you have a carry permit? Do police normally ask to see ID from the passenger? It seems like you're trying to create a pretty implausible scenario.

+1

This was not clear in the original post, but when the registration of the vehicle was run, the registered owner (who is present) shows as having a HCP. I have no insight into how fancy cop databases work, but that is what was suggested by the OP.

It doesn't work exactly like that.

The officer usually gives the tag information to the dispatcher when he makes a stop. Some departments automatically run a registration check on the tag, some wait until the officer request it. So let's say this is a dept that goes ahead and runs the check. Nothing in the registration check will show anything about a HCP, but it does of course show the registered owner. Now...this is where we get into the possible but not as likely. The dispatcher can take that name and run a Driver's License check by name, and then match the results by address on the registration check. Of course all that does is tell you that the registered owner of the car has a HCP. It doesn't mean the owner is the one driving. (Also in many cases vehicles are registered in the both spouses name) So yes the officer could know the registered owner of the vehicle had a HCP before he approaches, but I really don't think it is done that often. At least it wasn't when I dispatched.

So in this case the officer has the registration info for the car, let's say the it comes back in just the husband's name. Once he ask the wife for her DL and she has the same last name and address of the registered owner...I really don't see the passenger info coming into play...other than the LEO may ask if he is the husband.

I do agree that without the HCP flag, all this other stuff would be a nonissue, and the folks would just be on their way home.

Exactly.

[molonlabetn]

This is assuming that there was some reason for the officer to ever see the driver's license of a person who was not driving... Or any reason for the question about weapons to be answered directly. But, assuming that one chose to go along with that, I don't see any reason why one wouldn't be just as content to go along with the rest of the system.

I don't think the charge would stand though, mainly because the sober driver could also be just as easily the one in possession of the firearm, even if she has no permit the gun is properly stowed. Wouldn't necessarily stop them from running you through the mill because they can, though (the innocent have nothing to fear, my @$$).

[Guest canynracer]

I don’t drink and drive, ever; so DUI will never be an issue to me. However… I do go out and drink if I have a DD.

Let’s say that I’m out shopping or running errands with the wife. Later we decided to go to a bar. Since I know I can’t take my gun in a bar, and I know I’m going to be legally intoxicated when I leave; I decided to secure my weapon in the vehicle. I clear the weapon, unload the magazine and store them in the rear compartments of my Suburban (I don’t have a trunk).

On the way home my wife gets stopped for speeding (she has not been drinking). While he is stopping me the Officer runs a license check and sees that I have a carry permit. Upon approaching my vehicle he sees that my wife is driving and I am sitting in the passengers seat. He asks if there are any weapons in the vehicle. I tell him that there is, but that it is unloaded and secured in the back on the vehicle.

The Officer decides to arrest me under 39-17-1321. Possession of handgun while under influence.

Do you think this charge would stand?

Discuss.

No, permit or not, your wife can be "in possesion" of the gun in this circumstance.

it is unloaded, secured with ammo loacked away...the gun is in transport. It is legal, and she is not drinking.

she "just got back from shooting and picked her husband up at the bar."

no law against that.

Also, the officer didnt stop YOU, he stopped your wife, so unless you were a beligerant ass to him to draw attention to yourself, as a passenger, he has no reason to run your license...just hers.

Edited October 6, 2008 by canynracer

[BBill_TN]

Unless your wife was a felon of course in which you would need a third non-intoxicated non-felon individual to claim possession....wow this is getting complicated...lol.

[Bocephus]

I disagree. The worst case scenario would be that you go to court and are convicted of the charge and lose your carry permit.

You won't lose your carry permit because of the possession under the influence charge.

If convicted of the DUI you will lose your HCP for the same amount of time your DL is revoked. After the DL is reinstated you can get your HCP reinstated.

[Guest mw.]

Put a trigger lock on it and give her the key. That still wouldn't be foolproof but I think they would have alot harder time saying your in possesion of it then.

[Guest Revelator]

I disagree. The worst case scenario would be that you go to court and are convicted of the charge and lose your carry permit.

You won't lose your carry permit because of the possession under the influence charge.

If convicted of the DUI you will lose your HCP for the same amount of time your DL is revoked. After the DL is reinstated you can get your HCP reinstated.

Actually you will lose your permit if convicted of PUI. TCA 39-17-1352(f)(1) states:

If a permit holder is convicted of a Class A misdemeanor offense, the permit holder shall surrender the permit to the court having jurisdiction of the case for transmission to the department.

(2) The permit holder shall not be permitted to lawfully carry a handgun or exercise the privileges conferred by the permit for the term of the sentence imposed by the court for the offense or offenses for which the permit holder was convicted.

PUI is an A misdemeanor--39-17-1321.

[Bocephus]

Actually you will lose your permit if convicted of PUI. TCA 39-17-1352(f)(1) states:

If a permit holder is convicted of a Class A misdemeanor offense, the permit holder shall surrender the permit to the court having jurisdiction of the case for transmission to the department.

(2) The permit holder shall not be permitted to lawfully carry a handgun or exercise the privileges conferred by the permit for the term of the sentence imposed by the court for the offense or offenses for which the permit holder was convicted.

PUI is an A misdemeanor--39-17-1321.

Yes you lose it for the duration of the sentence. In the case of a PUI or class A misdemeanor 11 mos 29 days. After that you can pay a fee and have the HCP reinstated.

[Guest Revelator]

Yes, just for the duration of the sentence. Thought you were first saying you wouldn't lose it at all.