Realistic ranges

[bayouvol]

I know we talk about 25 yard groupings and we should be able to hit at that range but what is the realistic range and spread of these subcompact guns like the keltec and lc9, kahr pm9, etc....

[173rdABN]

.

Edited May 4, 2014 by 173rdABN

[hipower]

Not a professional, barely mediocre shooter; but for me; with the guns you mentioned, if I can get a center mass hit at 25 yards I'll be happy.

Edited May 4, 2014 by hipower

[Steelharp]

I would hate to be in a courtroom trying to justify a 25 YARD shot with a handgun. 25 FEET... yeah. And that's what the small guns you mentioned are for. Yes, the bullet goes much farther... but my understanding is a valid self defense scenario is close up and personal.

[gregintenn]

I'm worried about a distance of inches, or feet at most, when talking about conceal carry guns.

 

25 yard groups are for entertainment purposes only. I seriously doubt you'll even consider using sights were you to ever need your carry piece.

[bayouvol]

So what range would you think is the extreme practice range? I want to become proficient at the outside realistic ranges.

[leroy]

Get a copy of "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith...   It will be very enlightening in regards to extreme range shots with handguns... The truth is that handguns are far more accurate than the majority of folks holding them... We used to shoot at 75 to 100 yards with revolvers and 1911's...

 

leroy

[Steelharp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk

[Joe357]

What you are talking about is a point and shoot, not an aim and fire target activity. If you can do a 6" group at 25' with the guns you have named you should be fine.....jmho

[gregintenn]

All you're getting from me is an opinion, as I am NOT a gunfighter. I would say to practice instinctive shooting (point shooting; not aiming) at 5 and 7 yards, and aiming and firing at 15 yards.

 

Getting the gun out of your holster and into action quickly would be much more important to me than accuracy. Odds are that if you find yourself in a real world situation, it'll be stick it in his belly and fire.

 

Furthermore, I believe that we'd all do well to practice daily being aware of our surroundings. Most people are not. This will keep one out of a lot of bad situations with no gun required.

[Jonnin]

I know we talk about 25 yard groupings and we should be able to hit at that range but what is the realistic range and spread of these subcompact guns like the keltec and lc9, kahr pm9, etc....

 

if you were exceptionally strong, exceptionally good at shooting, and fired each shot slowly and carefully, should be able to make a 2 inch or so group.

 

If you were in a firefight, shooting fast at moving targets, you would be unlikely to even hit COM.  

 

If you put those guns in a rest, they should make sub 1 inch at 25 with good ammo, for the most part, and 2-3 at 50 yards should be doable (in a rest).

 

so, shooting as if in a fight, be happy to score hits with guns like that. 

 

For reference I can hit a large skeet clay (not moving..) at 25 with my sig 938, using handloads, more often than not, probably at least 70% or so, shooting slowly.   The misses are human error.  I could not do that with a 10+ pound trigger pull dao though, I cant hold my hands that steady under the strain.

 

Edited May 5, 2014 by Jonnin

[bersaguy]

Well, I don't claim to be a great shot and I don't practice as much as I should but this is last trip to the range shooting a Bersa Thunder 380 semi auto at 15 yards and this is first two magazines point shoot, reload and empty second mag. Next two magazines were taking time and aiming. Don't see a lot of difference but I do think that is descent for the caliber of the gun at 15 yards but other folks may have different opinions. I have to agree with most everyone about the realistic range one should practice at is between 3 and 7 yards at most and like a few have mentioned there will be times that you may put powder burns on the perp cause it is that close.................jmho

 

 

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[jacob]

I practice shooting 1" dots at 3 and 5 yards and 6" dots at 7 to 9 yards. I do this for trigger control/building muscle memory. In the couple of SD classes I have taken I have been able to draw and fire 2 shots at 5 yards within an inch of each other as a result of that practice. I also use combat sights on my carry gun, xs big dots. They are not precision sights, but the big dot up front aids in quickly acquiring the target and pulling the trigger. I would agree with a previous poster in that a SD scenario is not going to require a long range precise shot. It will be a adrenaline rushed, point and shoot situation.

[Refleks]

Dean A. Mellberg shoots and kills four people and wounds 22 at Fairchild Air Force Base hospital on June 20, 1994 with his AK type rifle.

 

His mass shooting was ended by Senior Airman Andrew Brown, age 25 with the 92nd Air Force Security Police Squadron.   While patrolling base housing areas on his bicycle a quarter mile away, he received the call over his radio and responded.   When he spotted the gunman some 70 yards away he ditched his bicycle and ordered Mellberg to drop his weapon.   When Mellberg turned and shot at Brown, he crouched and engaged him with his M9 Beretta.  Of four rounds fired, two missed the gunman, one hit his shoulder and a final round struck his head ending the fight.

 

If I recall correctly he did suffer PTSD after the incident not for ending Mellberg's life, but because he wished he was able to get there faster IOT save more lives.  I can only imagine how out of breath he was while making the shot after hauling ass on a bicycle, and 70 yards is a hell of a shot even when you're not winded.   I have a hard time getting all my rounds center mass at 25 yards while I'm not under stress in the comfort of a shooting range.

I remember a story of a man who was shooting an enfield rifle from his porch at police officers.  One of them had only his sidearm to respond, and he was a competitive pistol shooter, but wasn't experienced at shooting at the long range he was faced with.  IIRC after the shootout ended they found a nice tight group of impacts that were about a foot too high because he wasn't sure what the holdover would be.

 

Other scenarios I can think of include shootings at theatres (if you're in the back row and they're near the front it's easily over 25 yards), across a gas station lot, some places of work, and so on. You just never know.

 

Obviously as a civilian it's not our responsibility to end killing sprees, despite being justified in protecting a third party.  And in some circumstances it may be better not to draw at all.  However as a community carry permit owners in general tend to be people who, by their very nature, want to help others.  To protect ourselves and our family is our first priority, but when something goes down there are a brave few who will run towards the threat rather than away if it means saving lives.

 

The odds of you needing a firearm in the first place are thankfully small, and the odds of you needing to be able to make a longer distance shot is even smaller still, but I can't imagine who ends up having to do so wishes they had LESS practice at longer ranges.  Even if you never need it, it's good to know yourself and know your weapon -- and more importantly know your limits.   Be an expert with your gun, know it's ins and outs, and learn what you can and can't do with it.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Refleks

[leroy]

Refleks'  insightful post made me think of the specifications for the Walker Colt percussion pistol; the first magnum handgun.... "...good out to 200 yards on man and beast...; and that was for a percussion revolver... It's somethin to think about....

 

leroy

Edited May 5, 2014 by leroy

[1gewehr]

Realistically, if you can shoot 'minute of Bad Guy' at 15 ft with a pocket pistol after a fast draw, you're pretty good. For practical purposes, 'Minute of Bad Guy is a 15" circle representing a center of mass hit.  Almost all self-defense shootings happen at close range. 

 

With time to aim and proper hold and controlled breathing, popping clay pigeons at 100 yards is a lot of fun with a full-sized pistol.  I've done it with 1911s, CZ75, .357 revolvers, and other pistols.  With a Colt or S&W 6" barrel .357 revolver, it's hardly even a challenge once you determine the proper hold-over.  Shorter barrels mean shorter sight radius and more of a challenge.

[molonlabetn]

A rule of thumb I use for the most 'appropriate' engagement range of a pistol or carbine in yards is the square of the barrel length in inches... ie, a 2" barrel is meant for approximately 4 yard engagements... a 3" barrel for approximately 9yd engagements... a 4" barrel for approximately 16yd engagements... a 5" barrel for ~25yd engagements... 8" for ~64yd... 10" for ~100yd... 16" for ~256yd... 20" for ~400yd... etc. It's not a science by any means, just a quick way for me to choose a barrel length based on what I'm going to do with it. So, for a 2-3" barreled subcompact pistol, I would personally focus on a 4-9yd practice distance. I'd care less about group size at that distance and more about how quickly I could make hits.

[gregintenn]

A rule of thumb I use for the most 'appropriate' engagement range of a pistol or carbine in yards is the square of the barrel length in inches... ie, a 2" barrel is meant for approximately 4 yard engagements... a 3" barrel for approximately 9yd engagements... a 4" barrel for approximately 16yd engagements... a 5" barrel for ~25yd engagements... 8" for ~64yd... 10" for ~100yd... 16" for ~256yd... 20" for ~400yd... etc. It's not a science by any means, just a quick way for me to choose a barrel length based on what I'm going to do with it. So, for a 2-3" barreled subcompact pistol, I would personally focus on a 4-9yd practice distance. I'd care less about group size at that distance and more about how quickly I could make hits.

So I should be shooting deer with my 26" barreled muzzleloader how far??!!?? :eek: :eek: :D

[molonlabetn]

So I should be shooting deer with my 26" barreled muzzleloader how far??!!?? :eek: :eek: :D

You'll notice I said pistols and carbines... Heh, I wouldn't suggest trying for a half mile shot on a flock of geese with a 28" 12ga either. Edited May 6, 2014 by molonlabetn

[LowBb]

So, using the full size beretta from the above post, what kind of drop did he get at 70 yards?

[MadMarx]

Not even remotely realistic, but dang impressive and points out the guns are better than 99.999% of the shooters, Jerry Miculek with a 200 yard shot with a Bodyguard 380

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fwb-9aYDa0

[JAB]

Jerry Miculek is amazing.  Bob Munden was amazing.  However, they (and probably the few people in the world who could match them) are probably what would be called 'virtuosos' of their craft.  In other words, their natural skill with firearms is far beyond anything people like me could ever achieve.  Because of that natural skill, they have an even greater advantage over the rest of us.  That is, they are 'naturally' good enough that they were/are able to make a living at it.  This means they have sponsors to provide them with all manner of guns and lots of ammo.  It also means that they don't have to make do with getting to the range when they can or getting out and plinking every once in a while.  Instead, they can spend the time that most of us spend at work, etc. practicing, shooting, planning shots and the like because that is their work.  Madmarx, I know you weren't suggesting that the rest of us should gauge ourselves and our shooting by Mr. Miculek (and you even went so far as to say that the shot isn't even remotely realistic) but I have to keep that in mind when practicing for and thinking about my own skills with a potential self-defense gun.

[JAB]

A rule of thumb I use for the most 'appropriate' engagement range of a pistol or carbine in yards is the square of the barrel length in inches... ie, a 2" barrel is meant for approximately 4 yard engagements... a 3" barrel for approximately 9yd engagements... a 4" barrel for approximately 16yd engagements... a 5" barrel for ~25yd engagements... 8" for ~64yd... 10" for ~100yd... 16" for ~256yd... 20" for ~400yd... etc. It's not a science by any means, just a quick way for me to choose a barrel length based on what I'm going to do with it. So, for a 2-3" barreled subcompact pistol, I would personally focus on a 4-9yd practice distance. I'd care less about group size at that distance and more about how quickly I could make hits.

 

I had never heard that, before, but can see the logic.  Pretty swift!

 

I will say, too, that I think handgun accuracy for me has as much or nearly as much to do with the grips as the barrel length.  My P3AT and my S&W 642 are both pretty small guns with short barrels.  Recoil is similar - at least when shooting standard pressure .38 (not +P) from the 642.  With larger guns, I generally shoot revolvers at least as well as comparably sized semiautos and, being a revolver fan, I prefer carrying the 642 and can shoot it well enough, I think, for a close range SD situation.  That being the case, however, I have to admit that I shoot the P3AT much more accurately at 10 yards or so than I shoot the 642 whether aiming or front sight/point shooting.  In this case, it has nothing to do with the trigger - they are both DAO.  I don't think it has much to do with barrel length as they are both pretty short - 1.875 for the 642 (according to the S&W catalog on their web page) and 2.7 for the P3AT (per the Kel Tec web site.)  So, what is the difference?  I have a 'pinky extension' on my P3AT carry mag which allows me to get a more secure grip.  Before adding the pinky extension, I wasn't quite as accurate with the P3AT.  Because of that, I am considering getting some slightly longer (probably 'combat' style) grips for the 642.  I hope to find something that will give me at least a slightly longer/more secure grip but that will still work for pocket carry.  I still would consider the realistic range with those, little pocket guns in my hands to be about 10 or 15 yards.

Edited May 6, 2014 by JAB

[TrickyNicky]

Get a copy of "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith...   It will be very enlightening in regards to extreme range shots with handguns... The truth is that handguns are far more accurate than the majority of folks holding them... We used to shoot at 75 to 100 yards with revolvers and 1911's...
 
leroy

I need a copy of that.

I would also recommend "Fast and fancy revolver shooting" by Ed McGivern.

Some good info in there and if nothing else some neat photos and stories.

@Leroy, some folks still do shoot handguns that far! ;) for awhile I was getting pretty ok with a Police Positive at 100 yards. Could ring the gong usually at least once with a full cylinder. Not bad for an < 2' target.

Sadly I doubt I could do it today. I bet my old shooting buddy still can though, he took to it like a duck to water.

[Guest SavageOne]

I try to be as proficient as possible with my handguns. The gunfight you get into may not be the average one, (5-7yds). Several examples have been offered in previous posts. I think it's wise to shoot your carry piece at extended ranges. You need to know what your hold is as far out as you can master. I shoot steel at 50 and 100 yds and manage about a 50-60% hit average. I shoot standard USPSA targets from 10yds to 30, and point shoot inside 10yds.

I'm certainally not a great pistol shot, but I try to practice the things I'm not good at. I think that's important. My primary carry guns are a Glock 27 and a Glock 19 which are both accurate enough for my use.

I have an LCP/P3AT and a PF 9. I could get by with either of those, but no way are they shooting 2" 25 yd groups out of anyone's rest! That kind of performance would put them in the same accuracy class as my Ed Brown.