Sig P938 ? Good choice?

[RagTop454]

I read of a lot of problems with the 938 before buying mine but I don't know anything about the 238 parts talked about in that link although the later recoil springs are suppose to be longer than the origionals. My 938 has a date on the box of 11/29/2012 and is S/N 52A030xxx. I researched it before buying and felt comfortable that SIG corrected the problems sometime in September of 2012 and that serial numbers above 52A008899 were good. A couple of days later I put a total of 500 rounds through it, 124 & 147 gr Hydroshock, 115 gr FMJ Winchester, and 147 gr flat nose American Eagle, with NO problems other than my trigger finger being sore. I've since put around 2000 rounds through it with only one FTE, and really think I limp wristed it then at the end of a range session after shooting two other handguns extensively. I did have an initial problem of shooting low left with it but corrected that by correcting my trigger pull.

[Djay3]

You might want to check out the firing range demo and review by our area's own Hickok45 on youtube.
He discusses the 938 versus a double action only Kahr. Seeing his fine handling of the diminutive 938 is fun to watch.

http://youtu.be/w6Js4acN46k

Thundersnow (above) nailed the serial number issue.

Good luck on your search!

[Radlink54]

"These are on the list to research if I should continue to look: Khar MK9 CM9 Kel-Tec PF 9 Really on the short list is the Khar PM9."

 

I tried the sig 939 and was disappointed in the sharp and stiff trigger, but I had one of the early models.  Mainly I decided for a pocket size carry gun I did not like the cocked and locked approach, because for a small carry gun, I want the option of pocket carry.

 

I don't know how to completely square your sentence quoted above with your earlier statement that your preferred option should have a safety.  However if you can adjust to a striker fired gun without a safety, you really should rent and try a 100 rounds through the PM9.  After a few rounds to adjust to the long, but smooth trigger, you will know if the Kahr trigger is for you.

 

I switched to Kahr 380 and PM9 for my pocket gun options, and love them both.  The PM9 is great IWB and can double as a pocket gun in some situations.  I agree with Hickock's statement in the video linked above.  I leave the 1911 manual of arms to my full size pistols.

[Patton]

I just saw read where you were also looking at the Kahrs and the Pf9. I had a Pf9, reliable and accurate enough but damn it was like firing a small cannon in your hand.

[Jonnin]

I also have the nano he discussed.  I kept it because its super left hand friendly; the one and only control is the mag release and it is reversible.   The sig engineers could take a lesson from that.   But the nano trigger is extremely long and moderately heavy; it cannot be compared to the sig in any meaningful way.

 

His video is also a lesson in picking something that fits.  his hands look to be half again bigger than mine, and you see him looking a little cramped there.

[Ladyhay]

[quote name="Djay3" post="1144708" timestamp="1398912608"]You might want to check out the firing range demo and review by our area's own Hickok45 on youtube. He discusses the 938 versus a double action only Kahr. Seeing his fine handling of the diminutive 938 is fun to watch. http://youtu.be/w6Js4acN46k Thundersnow (above) nailed the serial number issue. Good luck on your search![/quote] I love watching Hickok. I will watch videos I am not remotely interested just to see what he is going to say next! He is so hilarious. Meeting with the local range today to join, but they don't do rentals etc, it's just a get a key, come and go deal. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ladyhay]

I didn't put this in there. But I do have rheumatoid arthritis. I've had it since I was 18 (31 now :)) A hard firing gun with a lot recoil (like my .38 snub nose) and a good practice session will kick start a flare, and once flared grip and hand strength are reduced. I don't really like discussing it, and I sure shudder at the thought of being limited by it. I'm not sure if that changes anything. But that is a huge consideration, for me. I will not carry anything around the children (2 littles) without a manual safety. Maybe later in life, but I know me and I know it will wind up in the safe. But if guns on my "to research later" list do not have safeties, I would mark them off the list once discovered. I am quite new to this world. I don't know which ones do or do not have safeties without digging into "research." :) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited May 1, 2014 by Ladyhay

[Ladyhay]

Oh and thank you. Thank you to everyone for taking time out to reply. I appreciate the varied opinions so much. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jonnin]

I didn't put this in there. But I do have rheumatoid arthritis. I've had it since I was 18 (31 now :)) A hard firing gun with a lot recoil (like my .38 snub nose) and a good practice session will kick start a flare, and once flared grip and hand strength are reduced. I don't really like discussing it, and I sure shudder at the thought of being limited by it. I'm not sure if that changes anything. But that is a huge consideration, for me. I will not carry anything around the children (2 littles) without a manual safety. Maybe later in life, but I know me and I know it will wind up in the safe. But if guns on my "to research later" list do not have safeties, I would mark them off the list once discovered. I am quite new to this world. I don't know which ones do or do not have safeties without digging into "research." :) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The sig is going to be one of a very limited number of choices for you in this case.   The 380 as well if the 9mm recoil is too much, the 380 is very gentle.  

My hands are also very bad; I cannot fire the vast majority of the DAO*** pistols at all, a few of them I can fire but cannot practice with as it makes me hurt for days after, and a gun you cannot practice with is not a gun to carry, you MUST be able to practice.   MOST guns without a safety have a very long and heavy trigger pull, the exception here is glock which has a very long pull but rather low amount of force is needed.   

 

The bulk of exposed hammer automatics DO have a safety, but not all.  The bulk of internal hammer guns do not, but some do.  That can be your "at a glance" test. 

 

But depending on how bad your hands really are and how bad they may become in the future, you *could* be looking at mostly single action pistols for your shooting needs.  These have shorter, lighter triggers that can be managed with less pain (less motion needed, less strength needed per shot).  

 

There are not a lot of single action autos, though.  Most are 1911 based and most are fairly large.  A few older 32s and 380s as well but most manufacturers are selling DAO guns with triggers so stout you can lift the gun by the trigger without firing it.

 

 

***

There are really only a couple of trigger ("action") types/designs.

Double action only (DAO) guns, the trigger pulls something (hammer or internal gizmo) back against a strong spring (gotta, it has to smack the primer pretty hard) and released it.  Every shot you have to lift that something against that spring.   Its like lifting a 10 pound weight on your finger every shot.   Kel-tec pistols or ruger's copy of them ( lc9) are examples.

 

Single action "only??"  guns (SAO) the hammer is stored cocked (external forces do this work) and the trigger just releases it.  This takes next to 0 force and travel to accomplish.  The sig is this design.   Here the external force to cock the hammer is done by racking the slide or firing the gun (recoil/rack does it).  All 1911s and stepkids are examples.

 

Double action (true double action, "DA/SA")  is a combination of the above two.  The first shot is DAO but the recoil cocks the hammer after that and it becomes SAO.  However the SAO shots are usually on a sloppy, wiggly trigger that, while easy to pull, feels kinda weird.  The dual linkages to perform both functions make the trigger poorish.  Classic CZ (75 family) and beretta (92, etc) guns are examples. 

 

Other action labels do the same things as the above, relabeled for marketing.  Glock is a classic example of this,  their so-called "safe action" striker fired design is just a fancy (and extremely light weight) DAO.

 

With sore hands,  the lightest pulls like glocks, 1911s, 22 target guns, etc are your friends, and it might be best to avoid the hard to pull stuff.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Jonnin

[Djay3]

"I didn't put this in there. But I do have rheumatoid arthritis. A hard firing gun with a lot recoil (like my .38 snub nose) and a good practice session will kick start a flare, and once flared grip and hand strength are reduced."

Having some hands on experience with both the Sig 238 and the Sig 938, the 238 is an incredibly soft shooter. The 938 is snappier but controllable for most shooters. I would liken the 938 (with wooden grip) recoil to firing a Walther PPKs fixed barrel .380. The 238 I used had the Sig rubber grips and the 938 had the Sig wood grips.

Both the 238 and the 938 can come with or be fitted with Sig or Hogue's palm swell rubber grips. Obviously, the .380 caliber is a ballistic compromise vs the 9mm. And, also rubber grips can grab clothing during a defensive draw. However, with arthritis being a factor, the softest shooting combination would be the 238 with rubber grips.

[Patton]

"
Having some hands on experience with both the Sig 238 and the Sig 938, the 238 is an incredibly soft shooter. The 938 is snappier but controllable for most shooters. I would liken the 938 (with wooden grip) recoil to firing a Walther PPKs fixed barrel .380. The 238 I used had the Sig rubber grips and the 938 had the Sig wood grips.

You are not the first person tell me that the 238 handles a lot better than the 938.

[Ladyhay]

I am always so overwhelmed at the kindness here. :) thanks everyone. The .380 is concerning because of the hype surrounding the caliber of coarse. I see fun made of the 9mm round much less the .380. But...and there is always a but... There is a lot to consider. I have read about people being shot with a .380 and not noticing it until hours later. And I have read if you use a hollow point it is less likely to exit and makes more damage in a person. My how I wish I had paid attention during my trauma nurse days. I wish I knew what most of those patients were shot with. All the details were in those reports, I just never looked. The only one I recall was a 10mm because I didn't know it existed. Anyway, after about 25-30 rounds with the Glock (17, I believe) my hands are crampy and tired. I can't load that magazine without the reloader on a good day, but I can rack it (now) with the two hand method. I take my time with that gun and have good shot placement. So I don't know if I can say that I can handle that gun, since I take my time with it. Definitely not a real life situation drill. More like a show my husband whose boss with beating his target placement :) But maybe that will give a bit of comparison on where I am with capability. (Low, I know :)) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hershmeister]

Most people are shot with 22's

[Ladyhay]

[quote name="Hershmeister" post="1144988" timestamp="1398984125"]Most people are shot with 22's[/quote] See, I would love to go back in time in see if they wound up w me in a high level trauma ICU or if they stopped at the floor. Which ones we lost vs didn't etc. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hershmeister]

Don't overthink it - find the gun you are willing to shoot and carry. Beats no gun any day

[cgun86]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Accurate fire is key to neutralizing your attacker, and negating outside liability. You may have heard stories about people being shot once with a .380 and not knowing it till hours later, but what about a 10" circle center mass with 7 .380s? I'm not saying every dangerous situation requires unloading your entire magazine into an oncoming attacker, but if they keep coming you keep shooting. You never know what type of attacker you'll face or what's in their system. In the immortal worlds of Rick James; "Cocaine's a helluva drug." Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - [URL=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]now Free[/URL]

[Jonnin]

I am always so overwhelmed at the kindness here. :) thanks everyone. The .380 is concerning because of the hype surrounding the caliber of coarse. I see fun made of the 9mm round much less the .380. But...and there is always a but... There is a lot to consider. I have read about people being shot with a .380 and not noticing it until hours later. And I have read if you use a hollow point it is less likely to exit and makes more damage in a person. My how I wish I had paid attention during my trauma nurse days. I wish I knew what most of those patients were shot with. All the details were in those reports, I just never looked. The only one I recall was a 10mm because I didn't know it existed. Anyway, after about 25-30 rounds with the Glock (17, I believe) my hands are crampy and tired. I can't load that magazine without the reloader on a good day, but I can rack it (now) with the two hand method. I take my time with that gun and have good shot placement. So I don't know if I can say that I can handle that gun, since I take my time with it. Definitely not a real life situation drill. More like a show my husband whose boss with beating his target placement :) But maybe that will give a bit of comparison on where I am with capability. (Low, I know :)) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

the 380 thing is a joke.  If you get shot by one and are not on an OD dose of painkillers, you will notice it right off if it hits torso or head. 

Its not the most potent round ever made. 

But the Russians (back when it was the USSR so all those countries and more) the police there used a glorified 380.

Its very popular in Europe as well, as a defense round.

Its as strong or stronger than many of the rounds used in the 1800s with black powder.

It will do the job, in other words.

And if that does not convince you, look at james bond knocking bad guys thru walls with one hit from it..!

 

I also found the glock 17 to be a handful.   Ill be honest, the sig 9 has a sting to the recoil.  One box of 50 is about all I can take at one go.  Its not brutal or even "bad" for recoil but its moderate.  This is where try before buy would be handy.   The 380 is very gentle and I could shoot 200 in one go with it (I would not, but I *could*). 

 

I dunno if you noticed or not but *supposedly* people lose more blood faster with an exit hole so round that do not exit are suboptimal.  The 380 may or may not exit, this is true.  I alternated solid and hollow point ammo in mine.  The solids *should* exit if you don't lodge in a big bone, and presumably you know where those are --- hips and legs for example. 

[Djay3]

"A hard firing gun with a lot recoil (like my .38 snub nose) and a good practice session will kick start an (arthritic) flare, and once flared grip and hand strength are reduced ..... I sure shudder at the thought of being limited by it."

Routine focused practice is probably more important than a looooong pain provoking session when it comes to building and maintaining proficiency with a defensive handgun. If a prolonged practice session flares the arthritis and yet abbreviated sessions prove tolerable maybe the 9mm Sig 938 will fill the bill. If one ever had to unfortunately use it in a defensive situation adrenaline would likely counter ANY arthritic pain.

Both versions of the little Sig are viable choices. Here is Hickok45's youtube video using the Sig 238 ...

http://youtu.be/6W4AVpxvGgg

[Ladyhay]

I am going to look at them both. If I find a deal on one I will get that one. If it is a 238 and I feel like I can take more I will try to find a 938 and see or vice versa. These weapons being the same overall, I am good with changing them up somewhat...muscle memory and all. And it's not like they are in low demand. I feel confident in being able to sell them. So at this point I will just see what comes my way and go from there. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wareagle]

I will mention that my 938 will eat any ammo that I've tossed at it. My wife's 238 will not chamber steel casings and will not fire most primers in European brass ammo.

[Ladyhay]

Well I finally put one in my hands today. I couldn't do the safety :( with my thumb. For anyone reading this thread later- please note that that is due to my particular joint issues. That safety is nice and larger and looks like it would be easy peasy. My thumb just doesn't go that way. I was however able to easily perform all necessary actions w the MP Shield. I really loved the feel of that gun w the extended magazine. I think the difference in my ability to flip the safety over is bc I bend my thumb w the MP somehow and the Sig's I my thumb remained straight. At any rate if anyone is close to Savannah TN, Sure Match has the 938 and the 238. The 938 was $659. The MP 9mm and .40 are $399. Now I must decide between the 9 and the 40. Thanks so much everyone!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Patton]

Having owned both 9 and 40 Shields, there really isn't a whole lot of difference in the handling. I may still prefer the Shield in 9 but that has a whole lot to do with my preferring Glocks in 40. I can have all my Glocks as 40 but still have a gun chambered in 9mm. There are few claims out that the Shield .40 may not be up to the higher pressure, supposedly one or two out of several thousand blow apart. This does not worry me and I would own another .40 Shield in a heartbeat. It does appear that .40 magazines for Shields are easier to acquire.

[Guest ddmoit]

Useful thread.  I'm considering the P238 for my wife and daughter.  Seems like I need to consider the P938 as well though. I'd love to try them side by side.

[Ladyhay]

I will probably start with the 9 and go from there. If there are no major pros for the .40 caliber. The husband shoots a 9mm so we keep ammo streamlined that way. I believe it is an extra round as well ? Did I read that correctly? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Patton]

Yes, you gain a round with the 9mm. Here is the way I see it, you do gain about 10%momentum with the .40 but you loose more than 15% capacity.