AR-15 pistol, length, and AOW

[monkeylizard]

I'm trying to plan out my first AR-15 pistol build and have some questions.

 

Can someone summarize the "rules" around any length restrictions and what canges a pistol to an AOW? Once you cross to an AOW, does that require a tax stamp like a Class 3 item and can it then swap back and forth between pistol and AOW?

Edited April 21, 2014 by monkeylizard

[teecro]

26" and under nets you a pistol over 26" crosses over into SBR territory...

[Patton]

As far as rifles go since we are talking AR's, do not put a stock on it unless you put a 16" plus barrel on it. All of this is assuming you have a lower that's a "pistol" lower. The recent exception is that arm brace by Sig.

[Patton]

To further clarify something, without getting a tax stamp you can not turn a rifle into a pistol. A Pistol can have a stock as long as it is 16" plus barrel and over 26". A SBR is different from an AOW, the AOW was neither built as a rifle or shotgun such as a vertical grip on a non stocked 12" barrel. Edited April 21, 2014 by Patton

[c.a.willard]

Short answer under 26 inches oal and no stock equals pistol. Can have afg or handstop, just no vertical foregrip. Over 26 inches oal and no stock equals firearm and can have verticle grip. Oal is measured from end of buffer tube to end of barrel. Muzzle devices are not included unless permanently attached.

[monkeylizard]

Thanks. I'm specifically looking at a pistol buffer, so no stock involved.

 

Under 26" and it's a pistol. AFG = OK. VFG = not OK, right?

At over 26", does it become an AOW and need a stamp, or is it just called a "firearm" and no stamp is needed and it can have a VFG?

Edited April 21, 2014 by monkeylizard

[Patton]

Over 26" it would be a rifle without a stock and not be an issue.

YOu are getting me confused, what are you wanting? It would have to be a 16" barrel or longer to put a vertical grip on it without an AOW. The stock at this point wouldn't matter unless under 26". The AOW is $200 to build and register but $5 to transfer. The SBR is $200 transfer or registration for you to build AFTER you are holding the form. Edited April 21, 2014 by Patton

[monkeylizard]

I'm wanting to build with a pistol buffer tube. Deciding between a 7.5" and 10.5" upper. The 10.5" puts the OAL around 26" by my estimates based on one of the pistol buffer tubes I'm considering, so I'm wondering what that means if I cross that length. I wasn't necessarily planning on adding a VFG, but I'd like to know if I can or not if I cross 26". I want to avoid any tax stamps and forms and remain legal.

[Patton]

No issues with going over 26" but unless the barrel is over 16" you do not want to put a vertical fore grip onto it.

[Oh Shoot]

26" and under nets you a pistol over 26" crosses over into SBR territory...

No issues with going over 26" but unless the barrel is over 16" you do not want to put a vertical fore grip onto it.

Good Lord.

 

Federally:
 
- No federal limit on barrel or overall length for a handgun/pistol
 
- 26" or more legal overall length, not concealed on the person, you may add a vertical forward grip, at which time it becomes a legal "firearm" -- remove the VFG it is a "handgun" again. Doesn't matter what length the barrel is. A muzzle device must be permanently attached to count in OAL.
 
- At no time can you ever have a barrel of less than 16" and a stock at same time -- that is SBR.

 

- A pistol under 26" OAL with a VFG attached is an AOW
 
- to make an AR pistol, you must start with a lower that was not first configured as a rifle. Once a pistol, it may go back and forth between rifle and pistol. If configured first as a rifle, must stay a rifle.
 
Here is my AR pistol configured as a legal firearm. Take the VFG off, it is a handgun. The SIG brace is not a stock.
 

 
 
- OS

Edited April 21, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Patton]

Edited

It does appear that over a certain length now can have a vertical grip. This is a recent change. Edited April 21, 2014 by Patton

[Oh Shoot]

U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives


Washington, DC 20226


Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun
 

 

"Correct", but "incomplete" subject to later rulings after Franklin Armory XO-26 in 2011:

 

Note last question on this page:

 

[Patton]

Thanks, I didn't know of the 2011 update.

[Oh Shoot]

Thanks, I didn't know of the 2011 update.

 

The ATF reasoning was that:

 

- with VFG it is no longer designed to be shot with one hand, so it's not a handgun

- however, is not an AOW either because ATF has used sub 26" as part of the AOW determination of "concealable" for long time, based on part of the SBR definition.

 

- OS

[monkeylizard]

OS, if adding the VFG makes it no longer designed for one handed use, does that have any impact on the Sig Brace? I though the ruling allowing the brace was at least in part because an AR pistol is designed to be fired one handed. Once the OAL exceeds 26" and a VFG is added, is the justification for the Sig Brace still effective?

 

I mean, I see that a VFG after exceeding 26" is OK and that a Sig Brace on a pistol of any length is OK, but can they both be on at the same time as in your photos? I didn't see an ATF ruling one way or the other, so is it allowed by default until there's a ruling?

Edited April 21, 2014 by monkeylizard

[Oh Shoot]

OS, if adding the VFG makes it no longer designed for one handed use, does that have any impact on the Sig Brace? I though the ruling allowing it was because an AR pistol is designed to be fired one handed. ONce the OAL exceeds 26" and a VFG is added, is the justification for the Sig Brace still effective?

 

I mean, I see that a VFG after exceeding 26" is OK and that a Sig Brace on a pistol of any length is OK, but can they both be on at the same time as in your photos?

 

Since the SB15 is not a stock, how could it figure into any combination of configurations? Same rules apply as if it wasn't even there. VFG and stock usage have rules, but the SB15 does not.

 

- OS

Edited April 21, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[teecro]

OS thanks for the clear info; this stuff is confusing even on a good day... For some reason my mind is/was stuck in the mud on the 26" LOA must have something to do with MI laws as we "JUST" got legalized SBR not more than a few weeks ago... MI has been slow to come around to getting in line with federal regs....

[Oh Shoot]

OS thanks for the clear info; this stuff is confusing even on a good day... For some reason my mind is/was stuck in the mud on the 26" LOA must have something to do with MI laws as we "JUST" got legalized SBR not more than a few weeks ago... MI has been slow to come around to getting in line with federal regs....

 

MI has a state limit on pistol OAL still, though. Can only be under 26". I don't know if there is actual penalty for violation or whether that only determines its usage for permit carry and/or any hunting regs, or changes its state classification to SBR or AOW or some such, though.

 

TN also has a definitional statute that says a "handgun" has a barrel under 12 inches. But there is no penalty for having a 12" or more barreled one, and it does not clarify exactly what the state would call it if so. But here, that could only possibly matter as far as the HCP is concerned, since can only carry a "handgun" with HCP, and we don't have any handgun only hunting seasons AFAIK.

 

MI also measures minimum 26" OAL on folding stock rifles with the stock FOLDED, which is the opposite of federal, which measures with it fully EXTENDED. I don't know if MI applies same to extensible stocks.

 

- OS

Edited April 21, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[teecro]

MI has a state limit on pistol OAL still, though. Can only be under 26". I don't know if there is actual penalty for violation or whether that only determines its usage for permit carry and/or any hunting regs, or changes its state classification to SBR or AOW or some such, though.

 

TN also has a definitional statute that says a "handgun" has a barrel under 12 inches. But there is no penalty for having a 12" or more barreled one, and it does not clarify exactly what the state would call it if so. But here, that could only possibly matter as far as the HCP is concerned, since can only carry a "handgun" with HCP, and we don't have any handgun only hunting seasons AFAIK.

 

MI also measures minimum 26" OAL on folding stock rifles with the stock FOLDED, which is the opposite of federal, which measures with it fully EXTENDED. I don't know if MI applies same to extensible stocks.

 

- OS

 

You sure know your stuff.... Yes if I'm not mistaken the 26" or under is so that it can be carried loaded in our cars under our CPL

 

I'm really just getting into this AR & AK pistol stuff so I've got a lot to learn. Nice to find folks like yourself who are well versed to help curb the learning process. Me I'm thinking of staying with the SIG brace on both so as to avoid the SBR tax stamp complications.

[Oh Shoot]

You sure know your stuff.... Yes if I'm not mistaken the 26" or under is so that it can be carried loaded in our cars under our CPL

 

Just happened to know those esoteric points regarding MI law because it is unusual (perhaps even unique?) I certainly don't know such detail about the various states as a whole!

 

- OS

[Guest ArkansasArmory]

One scenario I would like to run by the group:

 

I want an AR "Pistol" to carry using my Arkansas Concealed Handgun License

 

11.5" barrel (better muzzle velocity, more compatibility with suppressors)

Virgin Stripped Lower (has not ever been a rifle before)

Sig Arm Brace

Magpul Angled Foregrip

Carried "Concealed" in my vehicle

Between 28" - 29.9" overall length

 

Does this still meet the definition of "Pistol"?  Does the act of carrying it concealed (either on my person OR in my truck) make it an AOW or is it still a "Pistol" (because it's an AFG and not a VFG)?

 

Thanks for the help!

[Oh Shoot]

 

Does this still meet the definition of "Pistol"? 

 

Federally, yes.  I'd be surprised if AR has any state laws that would change that, but you should check to make sure.

 

If you put a VFG on it, and not concealed on the person, federally becomes a legal "firearm" and no longer a "handgun", but concealing it on person in that config could well be deemed as being an AOW.

 

ATF has specifically approved the AFG, it does nothing to change classification of rest of config.

 

- OS

Edited May 1, 2014 by Oh Shoot