AK SBR

[Oh Shoot]

Correct as long as it is not assembled in violation of NFA rules. So, configuration not possession is still the determining factor? So in the case of the OP as long as the stock is not assembled then he arguably has a pistol? When his paperwork comes back he can then assemble the stock and have an SBR.

 

It is "configured" by simply being in same area. It does not have to be assembled to be in violation. In any of those three examples, if the rifle parts were not present, it is illegal "configuration" just lying side by side.

 

I just don't see why this seems so unclear to you:

 

"An NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm or convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm".

 

Without the rifle upper in any of those three examples, the stock's only useful purpose would be to make an NFA firearm. And it doesn't have to be actually attached under the ruling.

 

Would you get busted for it? Likely not as obviously a yes as if you were walking around with stock and short barrel assembled, but it is same violation if they want to use it.

 

- OS

 

edit: one more point on that to 'spain further:

 

ATF says you may use an adjustable carbine tube on an AR pistol, no prob. However, always dependable to only give incomplete answers, it also warns that mere possession of an attachable stock along with it could constitute possession of an illegal SBR.

 

So, how could this be? Well, it's because if that stock has no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm, then you can be deemed to have done so. Having a legal rifle along with the pistol of course negates that, as you now have a legal useful purpose for the stock.

 

The main thing the Thompson Decision did -- before it, you could be popped for simply being able to make an  illegal configuration. After it, you are only culpable for only being able to make an illegal configuration. In other words, it's not whether you can make something illegal, but whether you can also make something legal among same array of parts.

 

Of course, actually physically assembling something in an illegal config did not change.

 

- OS

Edited April 22, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Smith]

It is "configured" by simply being in same area. It does not have to be assembled to be in violation. In any of those three examples, if the rifle parts were not present, it is illegal "configuration" just lying side by side.

 

I just don't see why this seems so unclear to you:

 

"An NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm or convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm".

 

Without the rifle upper in any of those three examples, the stock's only useful purpose would be to make an NFA firearm. And it doesn't have to be actually attached under the ruling.

 

Would you get busted for it? Likely not as obviously a yes as if you were walking around with stock and short barrel assembled, but it is same violation if they want to use it.

 

- OS

It's not unclear, but I believe we were trying to answer a question not be ATF legal experts. In regards to the OP's question he could assemble the barrel as long as he left the stock off and didn't have it laying around without a legal purpose and be fine, which was his question.

Why is that so unclear? ;)

[Oh Shoot]

It's not unclear, but I believe we were trying to answer a question not be ATF legal experts. In regards to the OP's question he could assemble the barrel as long as he left the stock off and didn't have it laying around without a legal purpose and be fine, which was his question.

Why is that so unclear? ;)

 

Was unclear to me whether he has virgin receiver or existing pistol or existing rifle, would have short barrel for awhile, or what, so I've not even been commenting on his particular situation -- I only got involved in response to your post 14.

 

- OS

Edited April 23, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[that_guy]

It is "configured" by simply being in same area. It does not have to be assembled to be in violation. In any of those three examples, if the rifle parts were not present, it is illegal "configuration" just lying side by side.

 

I just don't see why this seems so unclear to you:

 

"An NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm or convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm".

 

Without the rifle upper in any of those three examples, the stock's only useful purpose would be to make an NFA firearm. And it doesn't have to be actually attached under the ruling.

 

Would you get busted for it? Likely not as obviously a yes as if you were walking around with stock and short barrel assembled, but it is same violation if they want to use it.

 

- OS

 

edit: one more point on that to 'spain further:

 

ATF says you may use an adjustable carbine tube on an AR pistol, no prob. However, always dependable to only give incomplete answers, it also warns that mere possession of an attachable stock along with it could constitute possession of an illegal SBR.

 

So, how could this be? Well, it's because if that stock has no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm, then you can be deemed to have done so. Having a legal rifle along with the pistol of course negates that, as you now have a legal useful purpose for the stock.

 

The main thing the Thompson Decision did -- before it, you could be popped for simply being able to make an  illegal configuration. After it, you are only culpable for only being able to make an illegal configuration. In other words, it's not whether you can make something illegal, but whether you can also make something legal among same array of parts.

 

Of course, actually physically assembling something in an illegal config did not change.

 

- OS

 

May someone please explain what "close proximity" is. At what point are two items considered not to be in "close proximity"?

Was unclear to me whether he has virgin receiver or existing pistol or existing rifle, would have short barrel for awhile, or what, so I've not even been commenting on his particular situation -- I only got involved in response to your post 14.

 

- OS

I'm bending my own flat for this particular build. I also have, in 7.62x39mm, one rifle plus these parts.That I guess could be converted with a some elbow grease, making it not readily convertible? It seems that the ATF likes to have gray lines just to mess with people.

[Oh Shoot]

May someone please explain what "close proximity" is. At what point are two items considered not to be in "close proximity"?

I'm bending my own flat for this particular build. I also have, in 7.62x39mm, one rifle plus these parts.That I guess could be converted with a some elbow grease, making it not readily convertible? It seems that the ATF likes to have gray lines just to mess with people.

 

No idea on that little bit of esoterica, because I don't know what the status is of an AK flat, or 80% unfinished AR lower, meaning since it is not yet a "firearm", would it suffice for covering the legal status of having a short barrel laying around?

 

On one hand, seems that it would, since ATF has no problem assuming you can easily enough manhandle and rearrange any already constructed firearms to be in violation, including ones with pressed in barrels that are riveted together -- on the other hand, AK flats/receiver blanks and AR 80%ers are allowed to be sold unregulated precisely because they are not "firearms", so again, no idea.

 

- OS

Edited April 23, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[that_guy]

No idea on that little bit of esoterica, because I don't know what the status is of an AK flat, or 80% unfinished AR lower, meaning since it is not yet a "firearm", would it suffice for covering the legal status of having a short barrel laying around?

 

On one hand, seems that it would, since ATF has no problem assuming you can easily enough manhandle and rearrange any already constructed firearms to be in violation, including ones with pressed in barrels that are riveted together -- on the other hand, AK flats/receiver blanks and AR 80%ers are allowed to be sold unregulated precisely because they are not "firearms", so again, no idea.

 

- OS

 

So should I just sit here and wait to see if the ATF is going to bust down my door? Or permanently attach the muzzle device, to be 100% safe? I would like to wait, but I also don't want the ATF to bust down my door and deem my current firearm to be readily convertible with the necessary parts to do so.

 

***EDIT*** I just thought about something. Since I have an ak, and a hacksaw, does that by default make me the not-so-proud owner of an illegal SBR? I mean, a Dremel could also do the trick, so would that make the majority of the people on the forums in general be not-so-proud owners of illegal SBR's too?

Edited April 23, 2014 by that_guy

[Oh Shoot]

So should I just sit here and wait to see if the ATF is going to bust down my door? Or permanently attach the muzzle device, to be 100% safe? I would like to wait, but I also don't want the ATF to bust down my door and deem my current firearm to be readily convertible with the necessary parts to do so.

 
Well, you know the odds are so long against any trouble that they're almost hypothetical, and "constructive possession" stuff is generally only used as "add on" charges when folks are already under suspicion and busted for something else anyway.
 
That said, don't take that as any kind of legal advice for Gawd's sake. Certainly a legal 16" barrel offers no chance of any kind of violation, that's clear.

Myself, I'd likely just stash the short barrel with a friend or relative which it couldn't affect until time to deal with it. It's long odds and a stupid rule to begin with, but the penalty can be harsh, and any chance of it easily avoided no matter how small the chances.
 

***EDIT*** I just thought about something. Since I have an ak, and a hacksaw, does that by default make me the not-so-proud owner of an illegal SBR? I mean, a Dremel could also do the trick, so would that make the majority of the people on the forums in general be not-so-proud owners of illegal SBR's too?

That has often been suggested as a parallel, but if you think about it, a hacksaw has clearly useful purposes other than making an NFA firearm. :) Seriously, even if it were stashed in your rifle bag, who's to say you weren't thinking about sawing off the trigger guard or a bit of the pistol grip or something, also useful purposes other than making an NFA firearm. :)

Also, though, and more seriously, pretty far fetched to think it would be upheld as a "part" as the ruling states.

- OS Edited April 23, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[that_guy]

 
Well, you know the odds are so long against any trouble that they're almost hypothetical, and "constructive possession" stuff is generally only used as "add on" charges when folks are already under suspicion and busted for something else anyway.
 
That said, don't take that as any kind of legal advice for Gawd's sake. Certainly a legal 16" barrel offers no chance of any kind of violation, that's clear.

Myself, I'd likely just stash the short barrel with a friend or relative which it couldn't affect until time to deal with it. It's long odds and a stupid rule to begin with, but the penalty can be harsh, and any chance of it easily avoided no matter how small the chances.
 

That has often been suggested as a parallel, but if you think about it, a hacksaw has clearly useful purposes other than making an NFA firearm. :) Seriously, even if it were stashed in your rifle bag, who's to say you weren't thinking about sawing off the trigger guard or a bit of the pistol grip or something, also useful purposes other than making an NFA firearm. :)

Also, though, and more seriously, pretty far fetched to think it would be upheld as a "part" as the ruling states.

- OS

Is it bad that don't really trust any of my friends to hold that barrel for almost a year? It's really not that they will "lose" it or anything. It's just that they'll forget it's mine then use it on their own build. Or sell it, or something like that.

[Oh Shoot]

Is it bad that don't really trust any of my friends to hold that barrel for almost a year? It's really not that they will "lose" it or anything. It's just that they'll forget it's mine then use it on their own build. Or sell it, or something like that.

 

Parents, relatives, anybody that doesn't own a rifle it could fit on.

 

Look, the flat may well suffice for a legal pistol configuration -- call yer regional ATF field agent and ask, no kidding. I've found them quite willing to help, not the ogres of internet lore, and they didn't ask for my name or anything,  have called maybe five times. Buy a $6 pre-paid throwaway cell phone with cash if you'd worry about them tracing the call and conducting a raid. :)

 

- OS

Edited April 23, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[that_guy]

Parents, relatives, anybody that doesn't own a rifle it could fit on.

 

Look, the flat may well suffice for a legal pistol configuration -- call yer regional ATF field agent and ask, no kidding. I've found them quite willing to help, not the ogres of internet lore, and they didn't ask for my name or anything, have called maybe five times. Buy a pre-paid throwaway cell phone with cash if you'd worry about them tracing the call and conducting a raid. :)

 

- OS

Thanks for the advice. I'll probably just use a friend's phone. Then I'll let my cousin in TX hold it for me. He is more of a cowboy gun kinda guy. He shouldn't mind, and I doubt that you could fit it to a lever 30-30. I hope... :leaving:

[Hershmeister]

[quote name="that_guy" post="1141817" timestamp="1398226537"]Is it bad that don't really trust any of my friends to hold that barrel for almost a year? It's really not that they will "lose" it or anything. It's just that they'll forget it's mine then use it on their own build. Or sell it, or something like that.[/quote] Yes, thats bad

[Capbyrd]

Why are wanting to take the much harder pin/weld route over the easier pistol route?  

Bend the flat and assemble it as a pistol.  

[Oh Shoot]

Why are wanting to take the much harder pin/weld route over the easier pistol route?  

Bend the flat and assemble it as a pistol.  

 

Yeah was my thought but they got into AK tech stuff about trunnion/headspace stuff I don't understand, seemed there was some tech reason work would have to be done twice or something?

 

But really, if that receiver were just in condition to be used, it would cover the bases of also having the short barrel along with assembled rifle, just as a virgin stripped AR lower does same, just dunno about one being in "non-firearm" form like a flat or blank.

 

- OS

Edited April 23, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Capbyrd]

Yeah was my thought but they got into AK tech stuff about trunnion/headspace stuff I don't understand, seemed there was some tech reason work would have to be done twice or something?

 

But really, if that receiver were just in condition to be used, it would cover the bases of also having the short barrel along with assembled rifle, just as a virgin stripped AR lower does same, just dunno about one being in "non-firearm" form like a flat or blank.

 

- OS

 

 

I haven't ever built an AK and I know as much about them as the mechanicals of Big Ben.  But I would bet that the rear trunion has nothing to do with headspace.  Course, I've been known to be wrong about clocks...

[that_guy]

I haven't ever built an AK and I know as much about them as the mechanicals of Big Ben.  But I would bet that the rear trunion has nothing to do with headspace.  Course, I've been known to be wrong about clocks...

You sir are correct. Headspacing an ak is basically like another firearm; it's all in the front part. The only reason I don't build it into a pistol is because I have a side-folding trunnion, which has the hole for a pin to go through. And as of right now the stock is sitting here on my computer desk, not in the trunnion. Just in case. I'm trying to be as legal as possible, but I also have another ak here. Hoping that doesn't give me jail time...

[Oh Shoot]

You sir are correct. Headspacing an ak is basically like another firearm; it's all in the front part. The only reason I don't build it into a pistol is because I have a side-folding trunnion, which has the hole for a pin to go through. And as of right now the stock is sitting here on my computer desk, not in the trunnion. Just in case. I'm trying to be as legal as possible, but I also have another ak here. Hoping that doesn't give me jail time...

 

If your raw receiver proves to be kosher as is as a legal pistol host, that will cover the short barrel.

 

The side mounted stock attachment is not an issue period, short barrel or not,  even if it will only accept one type of stock you possess,  as could  be configured with your rifle parts to make a legal folding stock rifle, eh?

 

Remember, a grouping of parts must have useful purpose ONLY for making an NFA firearm.

 

It all hinges on legitimacy of your receiver at this point as related to the short barrel. Is it a big deal to just get it bent and drilled so that it is a true "firearm"? Or as I said, call and ask if it qualifies in its present condition (which admittedly, a field agent may not even know either).

 

- OS

Edited April 23, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[that_guy]

If your raw receiver proves to be kosher as is as a legal pistol host, that will cover the short barrel.

 

The side mounted stock attachment is not an issue period, short barrel or not,  even if it will only accept one type of stock you possess,  as could  be configured with your rifle parts to make a legal folding stock rifle, eh?

 

Remember, a grouping of parts must have useful purpose ONLY for making an NFA firearm.

 

It all hinges on legitimacy of your receiver at this point as related to the short barrel. Is it a big deal to just get it bent and drilled so that it is a true "firearm"? Or as I said, call and ask if it qualifies in its present condition (which admittedly, a field agent may not even know either).

 

- OS

What I might do for right now at least, is let someone else hold the actual stock and barrel for me. I'll have to "call back tomorrow, as the NFA division is closed right now."

 

***EDIT*** or I guess the option of pinning the muzzle device is an option put back on the table.

Edited April 23, 2014 by that_guy

[Oh Shoot]

What I might do for right now at least, is let someone else hold the actual stock and barrel for me. I'll have to "call back tomorrow, as the NFA division is closed right now."

Only the short barrel is possibly an issue. In your situation the side trunnion and/or extra stock has a legal use, not solely an illegal one.

 

***EDIT*** or I guess the option of pinning the muzzle device is an option put back on the table.

 

A 16" barrel of course presents no issues whatsoever, regardless of whatever else you may possess.

 

- OS

Edited April 24, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[LawEnforcementSalesTN]

I'm back for a little bit :o) OS has is correct, in the almost 30 years I've been dealing with this mess I've never seen the ATF go after someone for constructive possession unless they were just pure a-holes or you were already in trouble and the CP was just a tack on peripheral charge. Could they, yes. Will they kick your door down I seriously doubt it. Given you already have an AK to shoot, if it were me, I'd wait as long as you possibly could to start building. If you have all the parts and jigs and such I'd even wait for the form. It's the correct thing to do. Pinning the barrel is going to be a pita if you're just going to un pin it when approved. I personally like to headspace and drill for the barrel pin when things are assembled. AK wise, it's considered a receiver when the flat is bent. Trunion(s) in or not. Just keep that in mind if it matters to you. I wouldn't worry having a short barrel along with your built AK as long as you had a kit and a copy of the filed form 1 and the flat is still a flat. I know there are many here that hate the ATF but everyone I've met has generally been nice and down to earth and will respect you if you just respect them. But given what you've written here it personally wouldn't push the issue and would sit on things for a while. If you must shoot it, get the gas block, hand guard retainer and rear sight block on the barrel and then have someone pin it. I've made pilots before that slid into the barrel and sit on the edge of the compensator or shelf of the barrel. A barrel with a pinned comp can still be pressed into the trunion if done properly. Outside of that, paper forms are taking about a year to approve and efiled ones are over 6 months now. Just giving you some approximate timings if you happen to not know.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm back for a little bit :o) OS has is correct, in the almost 30 years I've been dealing with this mess I've never seen the ATF go after someone for constructive possession unless they were just pure a-holes or you were already in trouble and the CP was just a tack on peripheral charge. Could they, yes. ...

 
Thanks for jumping back in...one question though, that seems like legality would at least theoretically hinge on -- you say:
 

AK wise, it's considered a receiver when the flat is bent.

 

So you're pretty sure that really qualifies as a legal "receiver" to cover ass for the short barrel? Meaning,  you can get AK blanks that are already bent/formed without 4473 also, because ATF does not consider them a "firearm" either.

 

I know it's a narrow technicality, but never considered it before this thread arose, and couldn't find any kind of actual ruling on that sort of thing.

 

- OS

[LawEnforcementSalesTN]

Really depends on the flat. The ones I use already have the trunion holes drilled. I'm not 100% in the know on what constitutes a 80% ak receiver. The bent ones I've seen shippable with no 4473 have been complete boxes with no holes provisioned at all. But again AKs are not my specialty. There may be some bent versions with letters approving them as 80% but I've always operated as once bent it's a receiver. I dabble with the mp5 flats too and I know for certain once rolled and welded they're receivers at that point. I know too both in flat state are non firearms.

[Oh Shoot]

Really depends on the flat. The ones I use already have the trunion holes drilled. I'm not 100% in the know on what constitutes a 80% ak receiver. The bent ones I've seen shippable with no 4473 have been complete boxes with no holes provisioned at all. But again AKs are not my specialty. There may be some bent versions with letters approving them as 80% but I've always operated as once bent it's a receiver. I dabble with the mp5 flats too and I know for certain once rolled and welded they're receivers at that point. I know too both in flat state are non firearms.

 

Well, that seems it still leaves the issue in limbo, meaning that if push came to shove, the legality of my parts grouping dependent on having a flat/80% AK or 80% AR receiver in the mix is really still unknown?

 

- OS

 

edit: occurs to me the situation has likely never even arisen, so no ruling or case law at all?

Edited April 24, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[LawEnforcementSalesTN]

Well they'd scrutinize you more than most OS :o) jk. You're 100% right earlier with having parts where you had a legal use ok. No legality at all not, to the letter of the law. But I'd be a little more concerned with having a completed AR SBR upper lying around (unless you own an AR pistol which we know you do) that could be popped on and off your AR rifle readily as opposed to a parts kit disassembled lying in a box. Would I drive around with the parts in my car, I would not. If they're after you yeah they're going to look at anything they can stretch or find. I just wouldn't see them kicking any doors down and making a fuss over someone who had a box of parts and is waiting on his form to come back before he builds anything. Turning this into an am I 100% legal you would/should have the parts in distinct locations. Readily available however we all know is going to be their interpretation when/if they're looking. They have never and I doubt they will put specifics on what readily means. It's going to mean whatever is convenient for it to mean to any prosecutor at the time of an incident. If anyone has the capacity to split their items up and store at different domicile by all means do so I'm just saying if I felt if intentions and common sense were easily articulable I feel one would generally be ok. Technically all the vendors at the gun shows who have AR rifles and/or lowers sitting on a table with short barreled uppers they're selling too are actually in violation of the law. We all know the reg was written for those with rifle and a short barrel with no intentions on using them legally. When, who and how that is enforced is up in the air.

[TMF]

Well they'd scrutinize you more than most OS :o) jk. You're 100% right earlier with having parts where you had a legal use ok. No legality at all not, to the letter of the law. But I'd be a little more concerned with having a completed AR SBR upper lying around (unless you own an AR pistol which we know you do) that could be popped on and off your AR rifle readily as opposed to a parts kit disassembled lying in a box. Would I drive around with the parts in my car, I would not. If they're after you yeah they're going to look at anything they can stretch or find. I just wouldn't see them kicking any doors down and making a fuss over someone who had a box of parts and is waiting on his form to come back before he builds anything. Turning this into an am I 100% legal you would/should have the parts in distinct locations. Readily available however we all know is going to be their interpretation when/if they're looking. They have never and I doubt they will put specifics on what readily means. It's going to mean whatever is convenient for it to mean to any prosecutor at the time of an incident. If anyone has the capacity to split their items up and store at different domicile by all means do so I'm just saying if I felt if intentions and common sense were easily articulable I feel one would generally be ok. Technically all the vendors at the gun shows who have AR rifles and/or lowers sitting on a table with short barreled uppers they're selling too are actually in violation of the law. We all know the reg was written for those with rifle and a short barrel with no intentions on using them legally. When, who and how that is enforced is up in the air.

 

My concern, traveling with all those items to the range, for instance, isn't with the legality of his set up but the ignorance of the law by police officers.  OS is completely legal, but if he gets pulled over for a minor infraction which turns into a search, the officer conducting the search may believe he is in violation of the law.  Heck, I had a Sheriff's Deputy in Florida come out to the family range for a shoot day several years back, and asked ME if my AR was legal to own.  He was under the impression that I had to have it registered (with whom?).  So it isn't far fetched to assume OS's setup could get someone in temporary hot water.  At a minimum, I'd have several letters from the ATF printed off and colocated with my items to ensure the popo had the tools of knowledge if it came to that.

[Oh Shoot]

....Technically all the vendors at the gun shows who have AR rifles and/or lowers sitting on a table with short barreled uppers they're selling too are actually in violation of the law....

Well, selling under an FFL, would exempt them, but yeah, regular private seller would indeed technically be in violation. Indeed, that's how the Thompson case began as I understand it, a feller trying to sell his Contender kit at a gun show, and it evolved to United States vs. Thompson/Center Arms.
 

My concern, traveling with all those items to the range, for instance, isn't with the legality of his set up but the ignorance of the law by police officers.  OS is completely legal, but if he gets pulled over for a minor infraction which turns into a search, the officer conducting the search may believe he is in violation of the law.  ....

If you mean my "kit" that I pictured, I don't actually tote those around any more like that, everything has its own lower these days, just use it as example to illustrate the 1992 ruling.

Just leaves my AR pistol as the eyebrow raiser, as it would not totally shock me to some day be hassled for it, what with the SIG brace and a VFG on it.
 
 

...  At a minimum, I'd have several letters from the ATF printed off and colocated with my items to ensure the popo had the tools of knowledge if it came to that.

 
Oh, I did then and I do now. But I also know ya don't win many legal battles on the side of the road, regardless of documentation!
 
- OS

Edited April 24, 2014 by Oh Shoot