AK SBR

[that_guy]

I was wondering where I could get a muzzle device pinned and welded so I still have something to shoot while waiting for my tax stamp to come in for eight months instead of having the parts kit around waiting to put it together. Or would it be legal to have the side folding trunnion in there without the stock and just keep the stock not in my house to let it stay as a legal "pistol"

[Photoguy67]

I don't know the correct answer to this, but I would be very careful with "readily convert able". If the trunnions for side folder was installed, they "may" try and go after you for that. But like I said, I'm not an expert and not very well versed in SBR laws.

[R1100R]

CNC Warrior for the parts.

[that_guy]

CNC Warrior for the parts.

Parts to make the barrel a legal 16"? I know where I could get a barrel extension. I just need to know where I can get it pinned and welded on. Or if I should just superglue it onto the end of the barrel.

[Hershmeister]

Wait

[R1100R]

Parts to make the barrel a legal 16"? I know where I could get a barrel extension. I just need to know where I can get it pinned and welded on. Or if I should just superglue it onto the end of the barrel.

 

This guy might be able to do it or point you in  the right direction. I purchased one of his custom built AK's and it is first rate. Plus he is in your neck of the woods.

 

http://www.neverenoughguns.com/default.html

[that_guy]

This guy might be able to do it or point you in  the right direction. I purchased one of his custom built AK's and it is first rate. Plus he is in your neck of the woods.

 

http://www.neverenoughguns.com/default.html

I thank you very much for this useful information.

[that_guy]

Okay, time to add another question to this thread. Since I am going to permanently attach the muzzle device, how would i press the stuff onto the barrel, without having to make an illegal SBR? Since everything goes practically in-line with the trunnion, would I just press everything together and headspace the barrel without riveting in the trunnion? or is there some secret method I don't know about?

[LawEnforcementSalesTN]

TG, the AK is not a difficult weapon to put together IF you know the basics.  Not trying to sound condescending but I sincerly hope the super glue comment was a joke! ;o)

 

But seriously, based on some of the questions you're asking I'd suggest surfing some of the AK specialized boards and reading all you can.  Nothing wrong with wanting to assemble the weapon yourself and there's a ton of information floating around out there where folks have done just that.  The way I see it, you have plenty of time so I'd highly suggest getting more familiar with things and then ask the final details of what doesn't make sense maybe... read and re-read... you can take a nice kit and be throwing it in the trash a few hrs later if you're not careful. 

 

From reading your post, I assume you've purchased a kit.  Also assume you have a receiver and all parts ready to assemble.  Finally assume you have filed a form 1 to make this legal and the post is leading towards what can be done in the interim of now and the time until the stamp comes back.

 

You have a couple of options.  Some you've kinda stumbled on already ..

 

1), Not sure the length of barrel in your kit but if it's less than 16", you could have a smith pin and weld a compensator/extention on the barrel to bring it to 16".  You can then assemble the kit with the stock and shoot until your stamp comes back. Then remove the pin and comp/extension and put your final compensator on it (may have/choose to have a smith do this too)

 

2) IF the receiver is virgin, meaning it's never been built into anything and/or it was built into a pistol when you bought it, you can assemble the parts kit in pistol form.  The stock piece is iffy to me ... Some will argue and NO I have not personally talked to the ATF myself but I'd have some concern over having a stock readily accessible or having a stock-ready rear trunion .. that's just me ... I see folks with AR stock tubes on their pistols all the time.. me, I'd feel better with a tube or portion that wouldn't simply take a shouldered stock piece easily .. to each his own.  All the AK pistols I've seen or worked on have had full stock rear trunions with the rear tab ground off so you can't bolt a stock back on. 

 

3) If you don't want to build this yourself, you have plently of time to work out the details with a competent smith and them be ready to jump on things when your stamp does come in.  While they're not my speciality, I've built a handful of AKs in a matter of a good afternoon or two... took longer to parkerize and cerakote them than the build... To build them properly/factory, there are a handful of specialized tools you're going to have to buy or make.  Things can get pricey or time consuming if you're only doing a single build.  

 

Factory AKs are riveted together.... you'll need to make some rivet jigs as (most) of the rivets are impossible to get to without a jig or make-shift tool... they can be a real PITA to get to.... in fact, many first time builders will use screws and bolts if they don't have the capacity to do rivets. 

 

To answer your last question more directly though, the trunion on a AK style platform has to be riveted/bolted to the receiver BEFORE you press in the barrel.  There's several rivets that get seated and the barrel goes over top of them making it impossible to do in the reverse order.  If you're doing this yourself at minimum you're going to need access to a Shop Press to press the barrel into the trunion.  If you rivet, you're going to need an AK rivet jig for the front trunion and trigger guard rivets.... there are ways to build single use rivet tools that will suffice for the home user / builder.  A set of go/no go gauges are highly recommended (I've seen barrels and trunions sold as headspaced but be dangerously off).  Then, I'm guessing you have a receiver already??? If you're bending your own receiver from a flat, you're going to need an AK receiver flat jig... 

 

I realy hate to post like this and then leave but I'll be out of the country starting tomorrow until the 26th... when I get back I'd be more than happy to talk to you about the build process and point you in the right direction, offer any help I can verbally and/or up to performing any smithing you'd like me to do for you. They can be very fun rifles to put together and can be very forgiving with tolerances and such but they're not as easy as assembling an AR or some other weapons. 

 

Good luck!

Edited April 21, 2014 by LawEnforcementSalesTN

[that_guy]

TG, the AK is not a difficult weapon to put together IF you know the basics.  Not trying to sound condescending but I sincerly hope the super glue comment was a joke! ;o)

 

But seriously, based on some of the questions you're asking I'd suggest surfing some of the AK specialized boards and reading all you can.  Nothing wrong with wanting to assemble the weapon yourself and there's a ton of information floating around out there where folks have done just that.  The way I see it, you have plenty of time so I'd highly suggest getting more familiar with things and then ask the final details of what doesn't make sense maybe... read and re-read... you can take a nice kit and be throwing it in the trash a few hrs later if you're not careful. 

 

From reading your post, I assume you've purchased a kit.  Also assume you have a receiver and all parts ready to assemble.  Finally assume you have filed a form 1 to make this legal and the post is leading towards what can be done in the interim of now and the time until the stamp comes back.

 

You have a couple of options.  Some you've kinda stumbled on already ..

 

1), Not sure the length of barrel in your kit but if it's less than 16", you could have a smith pin and weld a compensator/extention on the barrel to bring it to 16".  You can then assemble the kit with the stock and shoot until your stamp comes back. Then remove the pin and comp/extension and put your final compensator on it (may have/choose to have a smith do this too)

 

2) IF the receiver is virgin, meaning it's never been built into anything and/or it was built into a pistol when you bought it, you can assemble the parts kit in pistol form.  The stock piece is iffy to me ... Some will argue and NO I have not personally talked to the ATF myself but I'd have some concern over having a stock readily accessible or having a stock-ready rear trunion .. that's just me ... I see folks with AR stock tubes on their pistols all the time.. me, I'd feel better with a tube or portion that wouldn't simply take a shouldered stock piece easily .. to each his own.  All the AK pistols I've seen or worked on have had full stock rear trunions with the rear tab ground off so you can't bolt a stock back on. 

 

3) If you don't want to build this yourself, you have plently of time to work out the details with a competent smith and them be ready to jump on things when your stamp does come in.  While they're not my speciality, I've built a handful of AKs in a matter of a good afternoon or two... took longer to parkerize and cerakote them than the build... To build them properly/factory, there are a handful of specialized tools you're going to have to buy or make.  Things can get pricey or time consuming if you're only doing a single build.  

 

Factory AKs are riveted together.... you'll need to make some rivet jigs as (most) of the rivets are impossible to get to without a jig or make-shift tool... they can be a real PITA to get to.... in fact, many first time builders will use screws and bolts if they don't have the capacity to do rivets. 

 

To answer your last question more directly though, the trunion on a AK style platform has to be riveted/bolted to the receiver BEFORE you press in the barrel.  There's several rivets that get seated and the barrel goes over top of them making it impossible to do in the reverse order.  If you're doing this yourself at minimum you're going to need access to a Shop Press to press the barrel into the trunion.  If you rivet, you're going to need an AK rivet jig for the front trunion and trigger guard rivets.... there are ways to build single use rivet tools that will suffice for the home user / builder.  A set of go/no go gauges are highly recommended (I've seen barrels and trunions sold as headspaced but be dangerously off).  Then, I'm guessing you have a receiver already??? If you're bending your own receiver from a flat, you're going to need an AK receiver flat jig... 

 

I realy hate to post like this and then leave but I'll be out of the country starting tomorrow until the 26th... when I get back I'd be more than happy to talk to you about the build process and point you in the right direction, offer any help I can verbally and/or up to performing any smithing you'd like me to do for you. They can be very fun rifles to put together and can be very forgiving with tolerances and such but they're not as easy as assembling an AR or some other weapons. 

 

Good luck!

I thank you for your advice, but there is just one thing. I don't want to sound like a dick or anything, but I've already built one and a half ak's (not including this one) One was a Romy Non-G. And the other "half" is a Bulgy AK-74. Then there is this one.

Really what I want to know is what order I should assemble these parts in. I need to know this because you basically need to rivet in the trunnion to be able to headspace the gun. Then press and pin all the other barrel components on. And all this needs to be done BEFORE the muzzle device being permanently attached.

What I think I need to do is as follows:

1. Press the barrel into the trunnion.

2. Press all the other stuff onto the barrel.

3. Un-press the barrel from the trunnion.

4. Go get the muzzle device permanently attached.

5. Rivet the trunnion in.

6. Press the barrel back in.

7. Rivet in the rear trunnion and assemble the side folding stock.

8. Enjoy!

I want to say that is how I'm going to do it, but I'm not 100% sure that is how it should be done. If it is, someone please enlighten me on how it is not correct. If it is flawed, may someone please tell me how to fix my method? Thanks in advance. :)

[Hershmeister]

How would you ensure headspace is correct using the method above? Best bet - wait

[that_guy]

How would you ensure headspace is correct using the method above? Best bet - wait

I like the way you think. I will actually probably go with that. I got another AK I can shoot 'till my stamp comes in. Gives me time to finish my other one too.

[c.a.willard]

Edit: never mind, answered above 

Edited April 21, 2014 by c.a.willard

[Smith]

If I'm not mistaken you could assemble the whole front end and leave the back end or put a pistol rear trunnion in and then change it out later. There is no longer the "constructive intent" interpreted like it was before the Thomspon clarifications. I believe they look at as configured.

[Oh Shoot]

If I'm not mistaken you could assemble the whole front end and leave the back end or put a pistol rear trunnion in and then change it out later. There is no longer the "constructive intent" interpreted like it was before the Thomspon clarifications. I believe they look at as configured.

 

Well, yes and no. The actual stock itself is the kicker in these situations. It's not whether it could be used illegally, but whether it can only be used illegally. So yes,   "intent" doesn't figure at all, but no, actual assembly is unnecessary to be in violation either.

 

"An NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm or convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm".

 

And yeah, that's from SCOTUS, not BATF.
 

 

- OS

Edited April 21, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Smith]

Well, yes and no. The actual stock itself is the kicker in these situations. It's not whether it could be used illegally, but whether it can only be used illegally. So yes,   "intent" doesn't figure at all, but no, actual assembly is unnecessary to be in violation either.

 

"An NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm or convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm".

 

And yeah, that's from SCOTUS, not BATF.
 

 

- OS

So, yeah that's clear ;)

[Oh Shoot]

So, yeah that's clear ;)

 

Really does seem pert clear to me, no kidding.

 

look at a part or component, in relation to everything else you possess:

- Is there an illegal config I could use this with?

- If no, cool.

- if yes, then

- is there also a legal config I could use this with?

- if yes, cool

- if no, don't have it

 

Only real gray area is just how far does "close proximity" extend? I consider anywhere on my property as "close enough".

 

 

 

- OS

Edited April 21, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Clod Stomper]

It does seem pretty clear. If you ONLY own AR or AK pistols, don't have a stock in near proximity, basically.

Oh Shoot, could you provide a link to that SCOTUS decision? May be something I'd like to print.

[Oh Shoot]

It does seem pretty clear. If you ONLY own AR or AK pistols, don't have a stock in near proximity, basically.

Yeah, that's best advice. Ruling goes on to mention "attachable" too, which is also undefined, but since gaffer tape could attach one, I wouldn't bet the farm that any stock designed for that type rifle couldn't be tried against you if they really had an axe to grind. And again, I wouldn't trust "near proximity" to mean any less than anywhere within your total property myself.
 

Oh Shoot, could you provide a link to that SCOTUS decision? May be something I'd like to print.

 
Actual SCOTUS case is much too long and convoluted best I remember.  Better to use the BATF ruling that they magnanimously deigned to publish nineteen years after the fact! It is of course not very succinct either, but not too bad.
 
It "summarizes" both the pistol-to-rifle-to-pistol and the "constructive possession" matters:
 
http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
 
- OS

Edited April 22, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Clod Stomper]

Thank you.

Edit: Oops. That was a sticky already, wasn't it? Edited April 22, 2014 by Clod Stomper

[that_guy]

 

Actual SCOTUS case is much too long and convoluted best I remember.  Better to use the BATF ruling that they magnanimously deigned to publish nineteen years after the fact! It is of course not very succinct either, but not too bad.
 
It "summarizes" both the pistol-to-rifle-to-pistol and the "constructive possession" matters:
 
http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
 
- OS

 

Wait... What it seems like to me, is that I have an illegal SBR for just having a 12.5" barrel in "close proximity" to my other ak???

[Oh Shoot]

Wait... What it seems like to me, is that I have an illegal SBR for just having a 12.5" barrel in "close proximity" to my other ak???

 

With no other parts in the mix to allow legal use, yep. Wasn't that part of your question in original post?

 

- OS

Edited April 22, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Smith]

With no other parts in the mix to allow legal use, yep

 

- OS

The last ATF letter I read said that the interpretation was based only on configured guns, so that in the case of the Thompson Center parts alone were not currently deemed constructive intent. I know that was the long standing interpretation, but I believe it was modified. I'll have to find the letter. 

[Oh Shoot]

The last ATF letter I read said that the interpretation was based only on configured guns, so that in the case of the Thompson Center parts alone were not currently deemed constructive intent.

 

Thompson Center parts of course aren't illegal, assuming you have both stock and long barrel in mix at same time. That's what the SCOTUS case was about to begin with.

 

(Note in all three cases the actual "firearm" began life as a handgun, very important)

 

This is perfectly legal grouping of parts:

 

 

If you were out and about with everything except the long barrel, however, you could be hammered for having a  NFA firearm.

 

Exactly same with AR stuff:

 

 

Or Beretta:

 

 

 

Again, all three examples, the firearm began life as a handgun, not a rifle. Firearms that begin life as a rifle must stay a rifle.

 

- OS

Edited April 22, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Smith]

Thompson Center parts of course aren't illegal, assuming you have both stock and long barrel in mix at same time. That's what the SCOTUS case was about to begin with.

 

This is perfectly legal grouping of parts:

 

 

If you were out and about with everything except the long barrel, however, you could be hammered for having a  NFA firearm.

 

Exactly same with AR stuff:

 

 

Or Beretta:

 

 

- OS

Correct as long as it is not assembled in violation of NFA rules. So, configuration not possession is still the determining factor? So in the case of the OP as long as the stock is not assembled then he arguably has a pistol? When his paperwork comes back he can then assemble the stock and have an SBR.