martial arts and concealed carry

[Refleks]

Good point Edited April 18, 2014 by Refleks

[TMF]

[quote name="Authenticman" post="1140059" timestamp="1397819557"]Yeah, I dont know how large the gray area is in the law. I imagine there are circumstances in which the law would not apply. But, I have seen the law applied at court cases before. (In mainstream media of course)Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk[/quote] Well in TN there is now such law. Reasonable fear means just that. If I'm in reasonable fear for my life, laws are moot anyway, aren't they? If I'm staring death in the face I'm not too worried about a court case, am I? I'm gonna defend myself with any means necessary. If the law says that I'm required to die in place rather than pull a firearm, I guess I'll spend the rest of my life in prison, but at least I'll be alive. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Guest Authenticman]

[quote name="TMF" post="1140171" timestamp="1397839449"]Well in TN there is now such law. Reasonable fear means just that. If I'm in reasonable fear for my life, laws are moot anyway, aren't they? If I'm staring death in the face I'm not too worried about a court case, am I? I'm gonna defend myself with any means necessary. If the law says that I'm required to die in place rather than pull a firearm, I guess I'll spend the rest of my life in prison, but at least I'll be alive.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/quote] I agree with you. I wasn't trying to make a case for NC laws just making a statement and seeing if TN had the same. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[TMF]

[quote name="Authenticman" post="1140181" timestamp="1397840756"]I agree with you. I wasn't trying to make a case for NC laws just making a statement and seeing if TN had the same.Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk[/quote] I know, sorry if that came out as bashing NC. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Guest Authenticman]

[quote name="TMF" post="1140182" timestamp="1397840829"]I know, sorry if that came out as bashing NC.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/quote] :-D no worries. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[daddyo]

I had four years of martial arts training. Earned a black belt and all that good stuff. Most of it I have forgotten, and I'm becoming an old man faster than I care to admit, so I'll take a weapon any day of the week to stop an attack on my person or on a member of my family.

 

With all the blood borne diseases, I have no desire to trade blood with anyone in fisticuffs. In fact, I have no intention of letting them get that close to me.

Edited April 18, 2014 by daddyo

[UncleJak]

I have 20 plus years marital arts experience. I carry everywhere. If trouble does present itself, the bad guy will want me to use my gun. If it comes down to hand to hand....it won't be pretty. At the end of the day I have a family to come home to, and I will do whatever it takes to make that happen. Sent barefoot from the hills of Tennessee

[DaveTN]

It all comes down to an escalation of force and your level of willful participation.

If I was a willing participant in a fight I would use my hands. If I started losing and pulled a gun I would expect to go to prison.

When I was a cop I never used my hands for anything except pushing my assailant away so I could grab either my mace, baton or gun, depending on the circumstances. I wasn’t required to go hands on with anyone then and I’m not as a citizen today (regardless of level of badazzerey); in an unprovoked attack.

[tbenedict]

marital arts? I'm still at white belt on that one with only 13 years... Let me know if there is a good instruction manual. Sorry.... couldn't help it

[piercedan]

After 2 pages of conversation I don't understand why the OP has not seen fit to reply back to his own starter thread....

Must have tried to use his hands. :0)

[JAB]

I agree with you. I wasn't trying to make a case for NC laws just making a statement and seeing if TN had the same. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

I don't believe that Tennessee has any 'escalation of force' laws for private citizens.  Instead, as some folks mentioned in above posts, TN sets a 'threshold' for use of deadly force and that is about it as far as personal conflicts go.  I think there are laws about other uses of force that are specific to more narrow situations - such as the law allows for using appropriate force to prevent crimes such as theft of property in which deadly force is not allowed by the law but lesser force might be.

 

This is what the code says about defense of property/prevention of theft:

 

 

39-11-614.  Protection of property.

  (a) A person in lawful possession of real or personal property is justified in threatening or using force against another, when and to the degree it is reasonably believed the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

( B) A person who has been unlawfully dispossessed of real or personal property is justified in threatening or using force against the other, when and to the degree it is reasonably believed the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property, if the person threatens or uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession:

   (1) The person reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when the other dispossessed the person; and

   (2) The other accomplished the dispossession by threatening or using force against the person.

(c) Unless a person is justified in using deadly force as otherwise provided by law, a person is not justified in using deadly force to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on real estate or unlawful interference with personal property.

 

I thought there was also something in the law about the allowable use of force when making a citizen's arrest and how the use of deadly force is not legal for such but I can't find it right now.

 

Of course, there were also a couple of scenarios presented in one of the videos which were part of the HCP class when I took it that fleshed out the 'use of force to prevent theft' issue.

 

In one, a citizen caught a burglar stealing his property and confronted the burglar.  The citizen had a loaded firearm and the burglar dropped the property and ran.  The citizen shot the fleeing burglar in the back.  That was used as an example of a bad shoot in which the citizen might face criminal charges as he used deadly force in the defense of property when his life was not being threatened.  Of course, that video was probably made before the official adoption of 'castle doctrine' type laws clarified that the burglar simply being in your home in the first place is cause for reasonable fear of death or serious, bodily injury.  Still, shooting the burglar in the back as he tried to run away might not pass muster for 'reasonable' use of deadly force if a prosecutor decides to challenge the citizen on that.

 

In another scenario, a citizen sees a guy trying to break into the citizen's car which is parked in the citizen's driveway.  The citizen takes his handgun - just in case - and goes out to tell the guy to stop trying to break into his car.  In response, the guy raises the screwdriver he is using to try and jimmy the lock into a 'stabbing' position and advances on the citizen.  The citizen, whose life is now being threatened, shoots the attacker.  Because he shot in defense of his life and not in defense of property the shooting was presented as 'justifiable'.

Edited April 22, 2014 by JAB

[Guest Rghyland]

I've taken BJJ for many years now and recently got my permit to carry.

Today I encountered a situation that has made me think. I was going to the grocery store and when I got there the parking lot was busy. I decided to go around some cars that we're sitting still. Someone that was walking through the parking lot yelled at me. I parked and got out of the car to go into the store and the yelling continued at me. I made one remark back, which I realized I probably shouldn't, and proceeded to the store. The persons partner pulled them toward their car as they continued yelling at me.

My question is, if this person would have continued toward me as I walked toward the store and I did not provoke this person when should I be in fear for my life?

I'm not going to get into a a physical altercation with someone when I'm in possession of my weapon in fear that it would be taken away from me even if I didn't draw my weapon. What are your thoughts? Edited July 8, 2014 by Rghyland

[Jamie Jackson]

You have knowledge that a weapon may well be interjected into an encounter even if the meathead trying to start some crap doesn't...you will be held to account for this legally, morally, and ethically.

 

And you will know when you are in fear for your life. No one can tell you that.

 

 

Please consider that afterwards, you, and possibly your attorney, must be able to articulate and/or demonstrate that these states existed: Ability - Opportunity - Jeopardy... on the part of the attacker.

 

Avoidance, Deterrence & De-escalation should be a priority for all of us.  Let them yell.

 

If you must use lethal force, then you must.

 

But "mutual combat" ? Not a good idea imho...

 

 

Some quality firearms training from a reputable instructor might well prove beneficial, definitely educational.

 

:2cents:

[teecro]

My question is, if this person would have continued toward me as I walked toward the store and I did not provoke this person when should I be in fear for my life?

I'm not going to get into a a physical altercation with someone when I'm in possession of my weapon in fear that it would be taken away from me even if I didn't draw my weapon. What are your thoughts?

 

Do not draw your weapon unless you have a real intension of using it.... If you should draw your weapon and do not use it the very next thing you should likely do is call the police and report the incident. As if you do not make the call and the other person does you may very well find yourself charged with brandishing and or worse. There is a case of this happening along with the stupid idea of getting drunk afterward because he was "shaken up" that has cost a MI man his freedom.

[DaveTN]

You would have a problem because you were not an innocent victim; but a willful participant. If you had not said anything and kept walking and the person attacked you; you would be justified in using force. Pulling a weapon is not deadly force. Tennessee has no law against brandishing. If you threaten a person with your weapon and were not justified the charge would probably be felony assault.

Would you be charged if you shot him? You very well could be; depends on how the DA sees it. But even if they walk away after you pull your weapon; call the Police and wait for them to arrive. The first caller is the “complainant” the second caller is the “suspect”.

Having said that I keep my mouth shut when I’m carrying and I would have to be taking a pretty bad azz whipping to pull a gun. The chances of me being hurt seriously or killed are slim; the chances of me destroying my family’s finances will legal bills are much higher.

[peejman]

Most morons like that are 99% talk. I witnessed something similar happen to another guy not too long ago. I thought about it a bit and decided that I'd enter the store for several reasons... the guy would have to "pursue" you inside the store and there's cameras and plenty of witnesses inside. I wouldn't draw unless there was a clear disparity of force.

[Guest Rghyland]

After I made my remark I realized that I should have just kept my mouth shut since I was carrying, and in the future I will, but this situation made me think. I did take the class for my permit and I do understand everything that is said. I don't plan on getting into a fight with anyone and I also do not plan on drawing my weapon unless I plan to use it. Most of the time I am alone when I am out so my weapon goes everywhere with me. In this day and time it is very difficult to know what these idiots are capable of and In the area I live in you never know if someone is high on meth or not either. Most normal people who are walking through a parking lot would not have remarked about me going around the cars. I wasn't driving fast or reckless. This told me something was wrong with the person. Possibly anger issues, they were high and felt the need to fight, or they we just a damn redneck. My last resort would be to draw my weapon and that is why I kept walking. This was just the first time I had been faced with this type of situation and thought it would make a good discussion. This guy was yelling pretty aggressively. Everyone in the parking lot was looking at him.

[Jamie Jackson]

Nobody is beating up on you Rghyland. And my opinion is just that, my opinion. :cool:

 

We all face, or will face, situations such as you describe. It's just a fact of life that there are asshat's out there, and serious predators as well.

 

I have lawfully carried for about 25 years now. I had to learn long ago to keep my ego in check and to not be goaded into something I may have previously considered in my testosterone filled youth.

I am not saying that's you Sir, I am talking about me...but it may be food for thought.

 

Walk away from an insult or an idiot....that's usually a combined thing anyway. But train to develop the appropriate mindset and skills necessary to protect those entrusted to your care, as well as yourself.

I can't recommend quality professional training enough. I know it was a paradigm shift for me those many years ago...and I am still learning. But mostly I learned that I didn't know what I didn't know.

 

You stated you are "thinking"...That's the first step good Sir.  :pleased: