martial arts and concealed carry

[Guest bat2156]

First I would like to say this applies to everyone and not just those who have training (martial arts or military). I have been in martial arts almost my entire life and I believe I can humbly say I that I can handle myself without a weapon in my hands. With this said I have just now started to conceal carry and I am planning on taking a course soon but I have yet to decide on one in particular. I have grown up around guns guns all my life and I am very comfortable handling them. So now that you know the situation here is my topic. When do you use hand to hand and when do you draw and fire? where is the line? Can they both co exist or can you use hand to hand with your gun drawn? These are just some questions to get the ball rolling.

[tnguy]

Judge which is the most likely to get you out of your situation and use that. Your aim is to stop the threat by the most effective means. This should have been covered in your class.

[bersaguy]

Well welcome to the site first off.  If your hands are registered I bet it's kinda hard for you to walk in anyplace posted and be legal if the term weapon is on the sign. To answer your question on hand to hand with gun out. Why would you need of even thnk about that when you have a gun in your hand and the situation is in control or your going to have to shoot the perp or you can holster your gun and kick his butt if he does not surprise you at 10 feet away and pull his gun and just shoot you knowing now you have one and end up taking your gun and wallet when he exits?  A lot of scenarios to that question but myself. I would stick with my gun or guns...............jmho   :up:

[teecro]

You are under absolutely no obligation to draw a line between using your hands and using your gun... Are you in reasonable fear for your life yes or no? If the answer is yes then you draw your gun and you use it until you are no longer in danger.

[JAB]

I have no martial arts training but, as a general rule, I believe that a person who carries a handgun should make every attempt to simply walk away from any confrontation that does not rise to the level where one could reasonably use deadly force.  I am not a lawyer, have never played one on TV and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  Still, from a layman's point of view, there are legal reasons why I say this.

 

The main one is that TN law pretty well negates the 'self defense' argument if you are a 'willing' participant in a fist fight and end up having to use your firearm - even if, for instance, the other party pulls a knife during the course of that fist fight.  So, if you think you are participating in a fist fight and the other guy decides that it is a knife fight then you could face criminal charges if you make it a gun fight.  If, however, you walk away and the guy pulls a knife then self defense applies.

 

Another issue is that a fist fight could quickly turn in to a grappling match which could evolve into grappling over your gun or trying to keep the other person from gaining control of your gun.  Because of this possibility as well as the possible, legal issues my HCP instructor pretty much advised that if you carry a gun you can't get in to fist fights.

Edited April 16, 2014 by JAB

[peejman]

The law says something to the effect of "reasonable fear for your life".  In simple terms, my interpretation of that is: disparity of force and/or lack of escape options constitutes justification for deadly force. 

 

As JAB said, the goal is to stop the threat by whatever means are available.  That could be escape, could be talking, could be deadly force.

[ncomarc]

Somewhat like yourself I've always been active in sports, wrestling, grappling and BJJ. In my younger years I thought I would always stand my ground and threw knuckles. After awhile you realize the jack-off that's probably drunk in front of you is really no threat and not fair to fight because of my training. That and situational awareness has kept me from any situation for many years. Then I got my carry permit, someone was having a special for Soldiers, it was cheap so why not.
I usually carry when I'm with my family, and in that instance the opposing individual will dictate whether he has a bad day or not. I've been lucky, but god forgive me if I have to ensure my families safety cause all bets are off.
If I'm by myself and they don't have a gun, they better be able to run faster than a 7minute mile for a few miles or they'll just see my backside. I have no interest of the drama involved in using my sidearm.

I guess my main point is - if you have to unholster your gun, they've already given you no choice. Strictly my opinion........

[Cruel Hand Luke]

There are no bumper sticker sized answers for this....

 

If you are within 2 arms length distance then using hands first is 99.9999% of the time the answer. Going for a gun when the other guy is within touching distance does not have much future to it unless he has his back to you or unless you have him physically controlled first. 

 

It largely comes down to how close they are, how they are armed, and how YOU are armed and where you are carrying it when deciding whether to use hands or weapons. For hands to work against guns you have to be within the distance you can touch the gun before he can react. For hands to work against knives you have to be able to be close enough to control the weapon bearing limb. Out side of those, the gun is going to be the primary tool. With multiple unarmed assailants you may or may not be able to shoot them justifiably....things are complex. 

 

If you can fight with hands and feet then you are far ahead of those who carry a gun so they do not have to learn how to fight. But if you expect the BG to play by rules and fight you fair...good luck with that. 

[TMF]

[quote name="bat2156" post="1139387" timestamp="1397659907"] Can they both co exist or can you use hand to hand with your gun drawn? [/quote] No. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Also keep in mind as a civilian you are NOT compelled to restrain or detain people.

 

In fact as a civilian that is about the LAST thing you should try to do. The cops get paid to put people in handcuffs and take them into custody. You on the other hand are responsible only for your own well being. Cops might very well draw down on a BG and then close in and (while backup /partner covers them) cuffs them. If you draw your gun as a civilian it would be extremely dangerous to then holster up and go "hands on" by yourself. And again, what are we trying to accomplish? WHY exactly would you go to hands AFTER drawing your gun? 

 

Going hands on BEFORE you draw the gun is not unreasonable. In fact, trying to interject the gun with the BG within arms reach BEFORE you use hands to make an opening or before you use hands to control them long enough to access the gun is a good way to end up in a wrestling match over the gun. The only time I would be going hands on AND using the gun at the same time is if I'm tangled up with multiple assailants and trying get better position in order  to access the gun to end the fight faster. Once I have gotten out of arms length then I have no interest in going back in......

[Caster]

I ain't fightin'  :poop:

 

If there's ANY possible way to run, I'll be diggin' a trail as good as any coward on earth. :leaving:

If I can't get away and there's a threat to me or my wife....that's why I carry.  I leave the fisticuffs to the UFC guys I watch on TV.  

 

I've found that holding your tongue and looking with both eyes goes a LOOONNNGGG way in preventing the need to brawl.  

[NRA]

What Caster said,  Don't go lookin for trouble and avoid it at all cost.  But if some BG gives you no choice then all you have to do is convince a jury of 12.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

What Caster said,  Don't go lookin for trouble and avoid it at all cost.  But if some BG gives you no choice then all you have to do is convince a jury of 12.

ALL you have to do? Kind of like saying all you have to do to play a piano concerto is to sit on the stool and hit the right keys.....

 

Yes obviously avoiding trouble at all costs is plan A. But plenty of people end up as victims of violent crime who were not out trying to get in a fight. Chris Newsome and Channon Christian were not "looking for a fight". Sometime bad stuff comes looking for you......

 

But if the bad stuff kicks off at 2 feet instead of at 10 yards then knowing a little about how to use your hands to create an opening to be able to get to your gun is worth its weight in gold. 

[BlackHawk93]

First I would like to say this applies to everyone and not just those who have training (martial arts or military). I have been in martial arts almost my entire life and I believe I can humbly say I that I can handle myself without a weapon in my hands. With this said I have just now started to conceal carry and I am planning on taking a course soon but I have yet to decide on one in particular. I have grown up around guns guns all my life and I am very comfortable handling them. So now that you know the situation here is my topic. When do you use hand to hand and when do you draw and fire? where is the line? Can they both co exist or can you use hand to hand with your gun drawn? These are just some questions to get the ball rolling.

 

I think this is the most sensible way to look at things and the best way to go about carrying a handgun for self defense. If I have to appear to be what some people would call a "sissy" or other words I won't put here I will do whatever I have to do to prevent anything from happening to start with. Road rage, smart*#es, bullies, etc, I will tell them I want no trouble and will do my best to de-escalate the situation. Because if I continue with the confrontation and it gets to the point where a gun has to be drawn, then I am culpable as I did not do everything in my power to resolve, de-escalate, or prevent the incident from happening. In a civil situation it will go a long way to prevent me from having to empty my life savings. But once I've done all I can possibly do to prevent something from happening, I'll still try my best to use my weapon as a last resort. 

 

I hope to never have to use it. But the way times have changed here in Middle Tennessee, it becomes harder and harder to believe that will ever be the case. Sorry for rambling. 

[Transplanted Hoosier]

^{I have been seriously thinking about taking some sort of martial arts class. Can anybody reccommend this guy?}

^{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j1-xQA_ufE}

[piercedan]

If it is a situation where deadly force is authorized, I choose to apply that force at a distance that reduces the chance of reciprocal force being applied to me. :0) I wrestled throughout school, have training in martial arts, joint manipulation and come along techniques, real world application as LEO , but you never know the guy you are defending against. Go to your tool, longer reach and harder punch. Fighting is for cops and young people. If I'm in fear for my life or defending my family against bodily harm and I can't diffuse the situation, that is what the tool is for. Unarmed combat is risky no matter what your skills are.

[tbenedict]

Good discussion, I've questioned myself on this several times. After hearing the legal stuff in the class, I'm less likely to carry when I'm alone since I think I could get myself out the door in places I go to (where I would have a choice anyway). Now it becomes a different situation when with the wife and kids. Edited April 17, 2014 by tbenedict

[piercedan]

Good discussion, I've questioned myself on this several times. After hearing the legal stuff in the class, I'm less likely to carry when I'm alone since I think I could get myself out the door in places I go to (where I would have a choice anyway). Now it becomes a different situation when with the wife and kids.

My opinion is... Always carry if you can. Better to have and not need. A gun is no guarantee, but I want every advantage available when my life is on the line. You just can't predict the scenario you will be faced with.

[JAB]

My opinion is... Always carry if you can. Better to have and not need. A gun is no guarantee, but I want every advantage available when my life is on the line. You just can't predict the scenario you will be faced with.

 

Yep.  Divorced and no kids, here, but  I have grown kinda fond of me and want to be armed whenever possible- to be better able to protect us (me, myself and I).

Edited April 17, 2014 by JAB

[homeagain]

When I carry (which is dang near 24/7) I am 100x more polite to others than I ever imagined I could have been.  No more angry stares while driving, no confrontational body language, no outward expression of any level of frustration with other humans that may trigger any level of argument.....nothing.  Not going to risk any level of escalation accusation.  My first pathway to safety is to create and keep as much distance as possible.  In the highly unlikely event that I encountered force-on-force aggression against me, I would look like the biggest sissy on the face of the earth trying to get away.  Not because I'm afraid of them, but because I'm afraid of the outcomes associated with having to get involved with any type of conflict when armed.  Get in a fight with a gun on ya, and nothing good ever happens to anyone.  That said, if I ever did have to lay hands on someone it would be to create distance and escape harm up to, and including, the use of deadly force to protect me and mine.  Key things that I've learned from 40+ years of martial arts is that distance is our friend, and that you NEVER lay hands on someone unless they absolutely give you no choice...you just don't know what they know, and they may just stomp a mudhole in your a$$ and walk it dry.  And, to boot, I just avoid places most likely to harbor confrontational types that like to tangle.

 

piercedan, on 17 Apr 2014 - 1:43 PM, said:

My opinion is... Always carry if you can. Better to have and not need. A gun is no guarantee, but I want every advantage available when my life is on the line. You just can't predict the scenario you will be faced with.

 

And I agree.....'cept I carry two.  Even more reason to avoid conflict at all costs.  More guns to inventory in the melee, and some lawyer will surely make a claim that since I double strapped I was 'looking for trouble.'

Edited April 17, 2014 by homeagain

[Guest Authenticman]

I don't know about TN but NC had laws on the books that described the force allowable by law. This "escalation of force" pretty much stated if you are being attacked it is lawful to use similiar means to defend yourself. So if the perp has a gun you could use a gun to defend yourself. Are there laws like this in TN? Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[tnguy]

As mentioned above "Reasonable fear for your life" is the operable phrase though I believe there are other defenses such as to stop kidnap and rape and murder of others (possibly more?)

Edited April 18, 2014 by tnguy

[TMF]

[quote name="Authenticman" post="1139922" timestamp="1397772048"]I don't know about TN but NC had laws on the books that described the force allowable by law. This "escalation of force" pretty much stated if you are being attacked it is lawful to use similiar means to defend yourself. So if the perp has a gun you could use a gun to defend yourself. Are there laws like this in TN?Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk[/quote] So if a 7ft tall body builder attacks a 5ft tall, 100lb woman with his fists, she can only use her fists to defend herself? That sucks. Guess weak people in NC are screwed and can be killed at will by stronger people? Edited April 18, 2014 by TMF

[Guest Authenticman]

Yeah, I dont know how large the gray area is in the law. I imagine there are circumstances in which the law would not apply. But, I have seen the law applied at court cases before. (In mainstream media of course) Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[teecro]

After 2 pages of conversation I don't understand why the OP has not seen fit to reply back to his own starter thread....