Well, I no longer own my '61 Springfield Norfolk Contract....BUT (More Civil War Buff stuff)

[Guest TankerHC]

Well I debated posting, not because I sold my Springfield, but because this keeps getting better and better. I almost didnt post it but thought...Well if I dont post it to the guys who have been following, who else I am going to tell!? The wife knows, the family knows, local friends know. So here it is. For me its pretty exciting, reason being I havent ever "won" anything. I now feel like I have won the damn lottery. It just took me a year to do it. To some, no big deal, but I am not wealthy, so to me, it's a big deal.

 

So a quick rundown of events.

 

1. Due to a ban on AR's at Sandy Hook, the big Northeast Outdoor show is cancelled when everyone drops out. I was scheduled to meet my cousin and spent a week here going every day.

 

2. Cousin calls and says "Hey, because of the cancellation, that cost the city 65 million in revenue, the Firearms owners are holding their own show, supposed to be really big". Asks me to go.

 

3. I drive to Pennsylvania, the show is big. Takes up the entire Toyota Center plus the three adjoining buildings, gun shortage, AR shortage, ammo shortage. Not here. 

 

4. I wasnt going to buy anything after walking the show for the entire day. On the way out, for the second time we walk past a table with an older guy with four or five muskets. I look, no proof they are real. My cousin points this one out and says "Buy it, you want a Springfield, so buy it". I say no, twice we started walking out of the building and twice he drags me back in. Last time he says "You should buy that gun or one day your going to regret it". The man says he wants 1400, but also says the stock has been replaced and its more than likely a reproduction. I say screw that, I am not going to buy a Springfield with a reproduction stock for 1400. Old man says he really doesnt care as long as he makes something out of it, he doesnt even care if they were Longstreets guns he buys Estate sale guns and sells them to make a little money (Springfields, this is Gettysburg after all). After some back and forth and my cousin bothering the crap out of me, I get it for 1250, get in the car and instantly have buyers remorse.

 

5. I decided to sell it with no guarantee on the stock and note it may be a reproduction. it goes up on Gunbroker with a low reserve. I get a message from a GB member "You might want to consider taking that gun down, I dont think that is a reproduction stock, I think it is real. Tells me what to look for, everything he says is real. He tells me that he is an associate of the Head of the Dept. of Social and Civil War Studies at the University of West Virginia and sold three of these to a friend who is THE authority on Springfields. I then send photo's to an acquaintance in Adams County, Pa and Gettysburg who is an authority on everything Civil War, not just Springfields. He looks, calls me back. Its reall, appears to be 100% correct, some more preliminary details and in a week I am headed up because he can authenticate it (Or not). 

 

6. I get sick, and sicker. My monthly trips to Adams County, Pa come to a halt. For ten months I dont go about anywhere. Realize this is permanent and just going to have to go with it. So I bring the rifle on up here, get it authenticated. Pretty happy, especially that it isnt a mismatch, its a transitional rifle. Post here, another chapter in this book I have been writing on TNGO.

 

7. Get up this morning and head on over. There are some documents I have been wanting since last year, still cant afford them. One is a Commanders map from the Irish Brigade. Cant afford it. Had the rifle in the trunk and thought "I am not going to shoot it, it will hang on the wall, and annual increase in valuation on these is less than 2%, wonder what this friend will give me for it". Figure not much, he owns millions of dollars worth of this stuff and has tons of Springfields of all types. Just another Springfield to him. 

 

8. He owns a couple of Restaurants, so he wasn't in his Gallery, tells me to meet him over at one of his Restaurants at 11:30 this morning. We meet and I ask him what he would give for this rifle, or even if he were even interested. Well, he begins telling me about the rifle. "I know what you have in it. I know what it is, I did the authentication on it, and I know what I can get out of it. TO ME, it isnt worth the same thing it is to you. But I know also that you are really into the Civil War like we are (Not quite as I dont own millions of dollars worth of relics and guns).

Well he could have stopped with the first offer and the gun would have been his. But, he continued.

 

He offered me a couple of documents from General Sickles and General Longstreet. Nothing important like Longsreets Special Order to Pickett but then he says "you know those documents you have been looking at, you own one you bought yesterday. well how about I give you the entire collection, at reduced value so you have some built in equity in the event you want to start buying and selling". 

 

And he still didnt stop. 

 

Ill also throw in a rare Confederate Letter, it is from a soldier in the 22nd Alabama to his cousin in the 9th Texas. With documentation and authentication that the soldier who wrote the letter was killed the day after he wrote the letter and his cousin was killed a day before the letter was delivered, along with the letter the writers Commander sent to his mother notifying her of his death. 

 

I figured at this point I should just keep my mouth shut and wait for him to finish.

 

He added that one I had been looking at was a really nice piece, not overly valuable ($400), the Discharge document of Corporal James A Law, 131st Ohio. And his service record. 

 

Then he says, "Only thing is I havent had time to get them framed. But frames add no value, it is the documents that hold the value. Just go to Target and buy some decent $20 frames, The value with the documents will be exactly the same. He also noted that with the rifle, any rifle, in the collectors world you see about a 2% annual increase in value as opposed to 10-15% on documents and higher on maps. 

 

But damn, no frames, going to have to turn that down. So (Actually to see if he would consider something else), I asked. In lieu of the documents, you have a pretty nice Dragoon Revolver and a '58 Remington. Asked if he would come down on either of those and how much. Yep, he could come down some. BUT, both of those revolvers came from the Day Collection, the day after the battle the Dragoon was picked up from Stuarts Headquarters and the Remington was taken from Longstreets Headquarters, the Day Collection was a small museum in their house that sat next to Lee's Headquarters where the Sunoco Station is now. They closed I think he said like 100 years ago, sold off the collection of firearms picked up all over the Battlefield. 

 

Well, overall it has been a productive last three days. Rifle authenticated. Hung out and learned a ton of Civil War related things. Made some decisions and this is what I ended up with.

 

Ill throw in a few prices with some of the photo's.

 

First and would be the lowest document is the Honorable Discharge of James A Law, 131st Ohio. Of course Lincoln and Stanton signatures are stamps, but turns out that unless Lincolns signature is on an important documents, to collectors it holds a low value, he was President, he signed thousands of different documents. They made signature stamps for these. Value is about $350-400 on a good day.

 

 

From the Major Frank B. Jones collection. Letter from mother to Lt. Frank Jones, thanking him for sending her a letter informing her of the death of her beloved son.

 

 

Another part of the Frank James collection. A Private wrote to James to tell him about his upbringing. In the letter he tells how he was raised, his stepfather beat him and he was thoroughly abused. When he was two years of age his stepfather took his and his families property worth several hundred dollars, because of this he grew up poor.  Because of the way he was raised he was not a good man. He felt that the Command was dishonest when in reality it was he who was dishonest. He notes that he was put in the guardhouse for punishment for some misdemeanor that he could not recall. He notes that he was standing next to Sgt Samuel Olds on June 27th, 1864 during the assault on Kennesaw Mountain when Sgt Olds took a ball to the right thigh. It fractured his thigh but he stood, but died a few days afterwards. He saw that and it changed him. He promised Lt James that he had turned over a new leaf and that he would conduct himself with honor for the rest of the war and that he was going to conduct himself for the rest of his time in the service in a respectable manner.

 

 

From the Frank James collection again. While occupying Richmond on May 9th he received a pass to go into the city. (Top) on bottom, May 27th, 1865 he was paid from January 8th, 1865 $107.40. Tell you what, it took signatures of 5 other officers to approve this Captain's pass. Aint a whole lot changed.

 

 

Major (Brevet) Frank James wedding day photo (Original) to his wife Sarah taken in front of his fathers house in Burning Springs, Ohio.

 

 

Letter from Private Corbin 22nd Alabama during the Battle of Atlanta to his cousin Jack in the 9th Texas. He says that he is tired of war (Only took the fronts, all the letters are front and back), he says he is ready to go home to see the girls, and that he had been sick but got well. Corbin was killed the day after he mailed the letter, his cousin Jack was killed the day before the letter arrived to his Commander. Jacks Commander wrote to his mother to let him know he was killed. I have that letter. It is being transcribed. 

 

 

The big one. This is part of the Major Frank James collection. It is his Battle Map. About 200 of these maps were made and issued to Union Officers. These maps were put together by Officers Surveys from the Union Army and previous maps. In the last ten years only two of these maps, authentic, have shown up in collectors circles, this is the better of the two. The reason it is better is because no one knows who owned the other one, it isnt annotated. This map through surveys has all strategic points marked through Virginia, East Tennessee, North Alabama, and Georgia. Major James carried this map through the final Valley Campaign. He marked his route throughout and placed notations at each Camp and each position he fought at and ending on January 19th, 1865 on the Potomac River just Southeast of Falls Church Virginia, before moving to occupy Richmond later.

 

They crossed the Roanoke River on 5 May 1864 and had an engagement at Cookes Branch on the 6th. Camped and moved out, had an engagement on 8 May at Chesterfield at 8 AM. They attacked Richmond and moved through that day and engaged between the rail lines West of Hanover Courthouse on the 11th. They marched and on the 12th had an engagement at Sextons Junction and lost 14 men, They Camped and moved out and on the 14th had an engagement just south of Spotsylvania Courthouse. They marched turned north and spent the night of the 15th on the Rapidan. On the 16th they had an engagement just south of Elkton and Warrenton, on the Elk River, On the 17th Battle at Centreville. From there they moved up to Camp between Washington and Alexandria on the Potomac until January 19th, 1865. The day they left to occupy Richmond.

 

So in less than a month in 1864, his unit marched and fought all the way from below the South on the  Rappahanock to Washington.  I can barely drive it that fast. (Exaggeration but you know what I mean).  The value to collectors on this map. $2400-$2500.

 

 

Oh, and I am getting the '58 Remington from Longstreets Headquarters that was part of the Day collection. The cash didnt quite cover a down payment.  And normally they do not allow a deposit and payoff. But they make exceptions. I have 3 months to pick it up. 

They are putting together the complete collection package for the Frank James collection, authentications and appraisals that will be ready next Wednesday. 

 

 

Total return on my $1250. Around 6 times that much. 

Edited April 10, 2014 by TankerHC

[Guest semiautots]

Sounds like you are getting a fair deal.  Your friend must think highly of the Springfield.  Make sure you take your cousin out for a steak dinner!

[Jonnin]

wow.  You were lucky to meet such honest folks all the way thru --- the expert could have bought it off the auction and you none the wiser, for example,  and the fellow you traded with could have given you less than you got in documents.   And lucky to find it in the first place.   Maybe you should try a lotto ticket :) 

[GlockSpock]

It's a good thing we did such a bad time selling that rifle at the Knoxville show huh?

[Guest TankerHC]

It's a good thing we did such a bad time selling that rifle at the Knoxville show huh?

 

Yea, thats what  I was talking about last week. Tried selling it 3 or 4 times, for a down payment on another rifle, for what I thought it was worth. Thing is if any of the people who actually looked at it would have bought it, it wouldnt have mattered to them because for me this was just a run of pure luck all the way around. 

 

To semiauto:

 

I have to say, I dont think he holds that rifle highly at all. Just another Springfield Contract. When I say that it is because "I feel" that when you can afford to own General Lee's field Ledgers, Picket AND Longstreets uniforms from Gettysburg, Custers field uniform accouterments, and you buy entire museum collections, and that is just a tiny part of your collection,  what I have is "Piddly squat". But not to me. I also know, even if he didnt outright say it, that he gave me far more than that rifle was worth. And I know that rifle will eventually go with many other rifles and revolvers, he even said "And you know, and you know you will see it". And I will. I think that what he did was gave me something that was probably considered lower tier (To him) because he knows how much interest I have in this. I can tell you right now that I know someone who, for a fact, who would buy that map, and just the map. for more than the gun is worth. To put it in simple English "He did me a huge one". 

 

In reference to Ronins comment.

 

There are a lot of scumbags out there, but there are far more honest people. 

 

It all boils down to a few things. 

 

Number one is honest people. Even the people who didnt buy it who could have bought it and jacked up the price and thought they were selling to some unsuspecting dupe, didnt do it.

Honest people again who saw the rifle, saw it because they were looking, knew that I didnt know what it was and instead of buying, told me.

Have to give some credit to my father who passed away last April. Im 51, he started dragging me to Battlefields and Museums 51 years ago. It never stopped. When you have a car load of kids all whining because our friends were headed to Disney and we were headed to Antietam and Yorktown and Independence Hall, and he "yelled", "Antietam is your Disney",  your going to learn something. Teacups are frivolous. (I did eventually ride the teacups by the way, when I was about 24). He knew what he was doing.If he didnt, I wouldnt know the people I know today and know what I know today. Let me tell you, I was married to a German for 18 years, Germans live with History 10 times older than the United States, every day. My wife had no interest in following Pattons Third Army through Europe. She wanted to go to the Beach, we went to the Beach, in France. Wanted to drive to Paris. Absolutely, two day stop at Verdun along the way. I did the same thing to my daughter. Her field is in one of the physical sciences, but for one of her summer internships, she went to Kings College and Sandhurst for WWII Studies, and spent several weeks there studying the Normandy invasion among other battles at those locations. She didnt get why I was dragging her around as a kid either, today she gets it. 

 

And PURE DUMB LUCK. Simple as that. (Had to get back to the topic, sorry, started rambling). 

 

Either way, took me a year and a half to finally get here, boring some to death I'm sure, but as I mentioned, I feel like I hit the damn lottery. I tell you, Id rather have that map than the money I could get for it. But I would not be averse to "trading up". Who knows, eventually I might get to tell a story about how I got my original Civil War Canon. 

Edited April 10, 2014 by TankerHC

[ironsniper1]

Very very cool tanker! Keep it up!

[firemanhank]

What type of civil war relics do you collect? 

[Oh Shoot]

What type of civil war relics do you collect? 

 

Any answer from Tanker will be via ESP. ;)

[GlockSpock]

[quote name="Oh Shoot" post="1142897" timestamp="1398477844"]Any answer from Tanker will be via ESP. ;)[/quote] Did we miss something? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dolomite_supafly]

Did we miss something? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Nope, we didn't miss a thing. He will not be coming back.

[GlockSpock]

[quote name="Dolomite_supafly" post="1143373" timestamp="1398629061"]Nope, we didn't miss a thing. He will not be coming back.[/quote] Ban or his own choice? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Raoul]

Ban or his own choice? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Look carefully. It'll come to you.

[GlockSpock]

Tapatalk. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Raoul]

Tapatalk. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ahh. Sorry.