Open Carry Without a Permit

[luvmyberetta]

The currently required training rarely even touches on how to shoot--it's mostly about legalities. Yes, there is the 50 round qualification that my five year old daughter could probably ace, but it is a half-hearted eye-rolling attempt to prove the applicant's marksmanship.  Rangemaster in Memphis is the one of the few places that spends the last hour or two of class teaching some shooting basics instead of telling LEO war stories.  Most places don't get into how to use a gun until you get to their tactical ninja level 2 class, etc. 

 

It's the same thing with driver's licenses. The driver/gun owner is the one that has to take resposibility in their own actions. I don't expect the instructor to hold their hands & they shouldn't have to. Owning & carrying a gun is a big responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly. Personally I feel much more at risk driving on the same road with idiots talking/texting on cell phones & drunk drivers than from other gun owners. Trust me...there were no war stories or Nija BS at my HCP class.

[TMF]

The currently required training rarely even touches on how to shoot--it's mostly about legalities. Yes, there is the 50 round qualification that my five year old daughter could probably ace, but it is a half-hearted eye-rolling attempt to prove the applicant's marksmanship. 

 

So then, in your opinion, if the requirements now are below sufficient to "qualify" someone to carry a handgun, what would change by getting rid of the permit process altogether and have consitutional carry?

[deerslayer]

So then, in your opinion, if the requirements now are below sufficient to "qualify" someone to carry a handgun, what would change by getting rid of the permit process altogether and have consitutional carry?

 

It seems geared more toward learning the legalities and the consequences of using your gun, not how to become an expert with it.  Knowledge of both is beneficial, but at least HCP applicants currently get the legal part.  Becoming more proficient with their gun is their choice. 

[TMF]

It seems geared more toward learning the legalities and the consequences of using your gun, not how to become an expert with it.  Knowledge of both is beneficial, but at least HCP applicants currently get the legal part.  Becoming more proficient with their gun is their choice. 

 

Yeah, I get all that.  What I'm saying, what would change if we just had constitutional carry, in your opinion?  I never took the class so I have no idea what I missed. 

 

I did research the laws, so I would know where I wasn't allowed to carry.  If folks don't have to sit through classes on what the laws are and they don't bother to research the laws, that is their problem.  Ignorance of the law isn't a defense.  So why not just let anyone who is legally allowed to own a firearm carry a pistol?  No permit.

[wk05]

Yeah, I get all that.  What I'm saying, what would change if we just had constitutional carry, in your opinion?  I never took the class so I have no idea what I missed. 

 

I did research the laws, so I would know where I wasn't allowed to carry.  If folks don't have to sit through classes on what the laws are and they don't bother to research the laws, that is their problem.  Ignorance of the law isn't a defense.  So why not just let anyone who is legally allowed to own a firearm carry a pistol?  No permit.

 

Honestly the class is heavily dependent upon the instructor.  I had a close family friend who hadn't hardly ever touched a gun go take her HCP course upon my recommendation ( :up: ) - however, upon coming out she had the idea that she was allowed to carry at the school that she worked at...   I politely tried to inform her of the class E felony of which she would be committing but was greeted with the - "I have my HCP and took the 8 hour class, so I think I know..." 

 

I've met MANY people with this attitude who have taken the TN HCP courses and come out with a piss poor knowledge of TN Carry/Firearm laws, and refuse to listen to others because of what their instructor said.  Reading and researching the law yourself will never be replaced by 4 hours of classroom talk.  I don't think we should kid ourselves and think that the current HCP courses gives a "great" education in TN Firearms law, but allows pretty much anybody with a pulse to pass through and get a permit. 

[TMF]

[quote name="wk05" post="1138032" timestamp="1397398794"] Reading and researching the law yourself will never be replaced by 4 hours of classroom talk. [/quote] Of course it can. I never stepped foot in a HCP class and I apparently know more about the law than the average person who has. It ain't hard. You don't have to be a lawyer to figure out what the law says you can and can't do in regard to carrying a handgun. It took me less than an hour to read and print out the laws on handgun carry. There are plenty of states which have constitutional carry or issue permits to folks without having to sit through legal guidance as a prerequisite. I challenge anyone here to present compelling evidence that those states boast more negligent carriers than Tennessee. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tnhawk]

My concern isn't only those who don't understand the laws.  I've seen several close calls at the range by shooters who don't understand basic safety rules.  A few "accidental discharges" in public are likey to cause problems for responsible gun owners.

[TMF]

[quote name="tnhawk" post="1138050" timestamp="1397403532"]My concern isn't only those who don't understand the laws. I've seen several close calls at the range by shooters who don't understand basic safety rules. A few "accidental discharges" in public are likey to cause problems for responsible gun owners.[/quote] Does that happen in other states which don't require a substandard class? If it doesn't happen there any more than it happens I Tennessee, it isn't a legitimate concern. Freedom can be dangerous sometimes. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TrickyNicky]

I don't know. I don't hear about gangsters and thugs having too many ADs and they carry all the time, often with poor, incorrect fitting or no holste at all.

If they can do it, I'm willing to bet most anyone with the desire and ability to carry a gun openly will be fine, and again it would seem statistics would back this up as we're not talking about anything new. Hope it all goes through.

[TMF]

[quote name="TrickyNicky" post="1138058" timestamp="1397405846"]I don't know. I don't hear about gangsters and thugs having too many ADs and they carry all the time, often with poor, incorrect fitting or no holste at all. If they can do it, I'm willing to bet most anyone with the desire and ability to carry a gun openly will be fine, and again it would seem statistics would back this up as we're not talking about anything new. Hope it all goes through.[/quote] Yeah, we can anecdotally trade stories about untrained carriers having NDs and such, but we could also tell stories of police officers and highly trained military personnel having NDs. I have some stories. Many folks here have some too. We chalk those stories up to stupid people existing in all walks of life. Stupid people will carry guns too. Funny, the same reasons gun owners take issue with constitutional carry are the same reasons anti-gunners don't want folks to have guns in the first place. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mikegideon]

My concern isn't only those who don't understand the laws.  I've seen several close calls at the range by shooters who don't understand basic safety rules.  A few "accidental discharges" in public are likey to cause problems for responsible gun owners.

 

You have 4 simple rules. They are printed in every recent owner's manual I've seen, usually printed in red.

[Oh Shoot]

..I've met MANY people with this attitude who have taken the TN HCP courses and come out with a piss poor knowledge of TN Carry/Firearm laws,...

 

You have only to read this and other forums over time to verify that.

 

- OS

[DaveTN]

Two separate issues here; some claiming the right to carry under the 2nd amendment and some saying training should be required for open carry or that untrained people carrying bothers them.

Some of you get pretty torn up when Judges legislate from the bench (they get to do that because the laws aren’t clear) or you don’t agree with the SCOTUS decisions. Requiring training to carry is the same thing, that is if you are making a "rights" argument.

I support that anyone should be able to carry open or concealed whether they have training or not; it’s a right. I just don’t believe that right comes from the 2nd amendment.

As long as we are discussing “open carry” it’s not a rights issue anymore and the state can put whatever training requirements they want on it.

[TMF]

[quote name="DaveTN" post="1138079" timestamp="1397412518"] As long as we are discussing “open carry” it’s not a rights issue anymore and the state can put whatever training requirements they want on it.[/quote] Make no mistake, EVERY law which restricts otherwise moral and ethical behavior which does not violate another person's God given rights absolutely is a "rights issue". Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TrickyNicky]

Two separate issues here; some claiming the right to carry under the 2nd amendment and some saying training should be required for open carry or that untrained people carrying bothers them.Some of you get pretty torn up when Judges legislate from the bench (they get to do that because the laws aren’t clear) or you don’t agree with the SCOTUS decisions. Requiring training to carry is the same thing, that is if you are making a "rights" argument.I support that anyone should be able to carry open or concealed whether they have training or not; it’s a right. I just don’t believe that right comes from the 2nd amendment.As long as we are discussing “open carry” it’s not a rights issue anymore and the state can put whatever training requirements they want on it.

None if our rights come from any amendment or even the constitution as a whole. That's why I've never given much thought to the idea of a constitutional convention in regard to the BOR. It doesn't matter what any person or group of people think, my rights were granted to me by my creator, just for being alive.

[DaveTN]

Make no mistake, EVERY law which restricts otherwise moral and ethical behavior which does not violate another person's God given rights absolutely is a "rights issue". Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 
 

None if our rights come from any amendment or even the constitution as a whole. That's why I've never given much thought to the idea of a constitutional convention in regard to the BOR. It doesn't matter what any person or group of people think, my rights were granted to me by my creator, just for being alive.

My point exactly. However the state does not agree. We can believe whatever we want; but that doesn’t matter when we are standing in front of a Judge. I am absolutely sure of that.

[wk05]

 
 

My point exactly. However the state does not agree. We can believe whatever we want; but that doesn’t matter when we are standing in front of a Judge. I am absolutely sure of that.

 

Roger that - Do what YOU personally feel is right, but be prepared to deal with the consequences.  

[urdubob]

I had my carry permit when you had to be Bonded and go through the sheriffs Dept. could only carry the gun you qualified with and had to qualify every two years with the sheriffs dept. firearms instructor.......................this show that people are starting to come around to the beliefs of self protection and Constitutional carry. I hope it passes!

[deerslayer]

Yeah, I get all that.  What I'm saying, what would change if we just had constitutional carry, in your opinion?  I never took the class so I have no idea what I missed. 

 

I did research the laws, so I would know where I wasn't allowed to carry.  If folks don't have to sit through classes on what the laws are and they don't bother to research the laws, that is their problem.  Ignorance of the law isn't a defense.  So why not just let anyone who is legally allowed to own a firearm carry a pistol?  No permit.

 

What would change is that we would have even more ignorant people legally carrying guns and when they screw it would be their problem, but it will also cause us problems.  I agree the training is not perfect, but I also have heard several people make comments after class like "eye opening experience," "had no idea," "didn't realize," etc.  Stupid people will do stupid things, but a little education may occasionally do a completely ignorant yet reasonably intelligent person some good. 

[deerslayer]

What would change is that we would have even more ignorant people legally carrying guns and when they screw it would be their problem, but it will also cause us problems.  I agree the training is not perfect, but I also have heard several people make comments after class like "eye opening experience," "had no idea," "didn't realize," etc.  Stupid people will do stupid things, but a little education may occasionally do a completely ignorant yet reasonably intelligent person some good. 

 

I'm glad you research laws--I wish everyone would, but the average Joe is not as concerned about or doesn't realize the importance of these issues the way people like you and I do. 

[TMF]

[quote name="deerslayer" post="1138769" timestamp="1397532590"]What would change is that we would have even more ignorant people legally carrying guns and when they screw it would be their problem, but it will also cause us problems. I agree the training is not perfect, but I also have heard several people make comments after class like "eye opening experience," "had no idea," "didn't realize," etc. Stupid people will do stupid things, but a little education may occasionally do a completely ignorant yet reasonably intelligent person some good. [/quote] We could apply that to gun ownership in general. Why not? Stupid gun owners are making us look bad all the time. Why not make people take a class and apply for a license to own a gun? Same logic applies. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[teecro]

We could apply that to gun ownership in general. Why not? Stupid gun owners are making us look bad all the time. Why not make people take a class and apply for a license to own a gun? Same logic applies. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Sure why not many of those who've already got their guns and permits wouldn't care one bit; as evident with many of the postings here...

[dralarms]

It's being reported over on tndeer.com that the bill is now dead. Is that true?

[DaveTN]

It's being reported over on tndeer.com that the bill is now dead. Is that true?

According to this it is...
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2014/apr/14/sponsor-says-he-would-raise-money-for-open-carry/

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — A bill seeking to allow Tennesseans to openly carry firearms in public without permits was overwhelmingly defeated a House subcommittee on Monday night.

The House Finance Subcommittee voted 10-1 against the measure sponsored by Rep. Micah Van Huss. The Jonesborough Republican later told reporters that he will abandon an effort to bypass committees and call the bill for a full floor vote.

"I'm going to withdraw that, because they killed it fairly," Van Huss said. "They killed it fair and square."

[Ted S.]

Just saw. Damn my life. Sent from somewhere in the cosmos using magic...and bacon. Edited April 15, 2014 by Ted S.