Open Carry Without a Permit

[luvmyberetta]

So, we are ok with someone with no gun handling experience carry a gun?  That person will get themselves (or worse someone else) shot/ killed.  I agree that 2A rights shouldn't be limited but I also think people need to prove they have adequate knowledge to USE a gun.Just carrying it doesn't help anybody.  Come up with a way that keeps our freedoms free, but requires sufficient training to use a firearm and then you have my vote.  You have to keep the irresponsible and uneducated from just strapping on a gun and feeling empowered and then trying to use.  

 

Bring on your arguments

What makes you think you're any better educated or more worthy to carry than others? I would like to see more readily available training out there too, but keep in mind that the right to bear arms isn't just about how much tactical training an individual has had compared to what you deemed as a standard. It's about the right to be able to defend their lives & the lives of their family in case an uneducated criminal tries to rape or kill them. Are their going to be idiots that would carry? Sure. Are their trained idiots that already carry? Sure. It's not a perfect world & adding more restrictions isn't always the answer.

[DaveTN]

It's about the right to be able to defend their lives & the lives of their family in case an uneducated criminal tries to rape or kill them.

This is what I base my opinions on, having dealt with many people that truly needed a gun (in a state that didn’t allow carry). Women fleeing abusive husbands or boyfriends that have threatened to beat or kill them, people that don’t have guns or a desire to carry that suddenly find themselves in an ongoing life threatening situation. I could do nothing but arrest the perpetrators (if we could find them) and help them get an order of protection. Orders of protection are worthless if the perp is willing to kill someone.

I have had people tell me that they are going to carry a gun in their car out of fear. All I could tell them was that I don’t blame them and explain to them that if it is discovered they could be arrested. It sucks.

Training is great and I suggest everyone get it. But sometimes it is not an option and the original point and click interface doesn’t require a rocket scientist.

Innocent people that have had their lives threatened shouldn’t have to die because they are afraid to violate a state carry law; but they do.

[Oh Shoot]

So, we are ok with someone with no child handling experience produce a child? 

 

Was just about to bring that up, but read to end of thread, so didn't have to.

 

Seems KevHunt would like to have this mandated too. Hell, maybe not such a bad idea, except for that little thing called freedom; and the fact that next step would be who's allowed to breed at all. Maybe not a bad idea either in some cases, but who decides that -- the government Master Race Czar?

 

- OS

[RobertNashville]

So, we are ok with someone with no gun handling experience carry a gun?  That person will get themselves (or worse someone else) shot/ killed.  I agree that 2A rights shouldn't be limited but I also think people need to prove they have adequate knowledge to USE a gun.Just carrying it doesn't help anybody.  Come up with a way that keeps our freedoms free, but requires sufficient training to use a firearm and then you have my vote.  You have to keep the irresponsible and uneducated from just strapping on a gun and feeling empowered and then trying to use.  

 

Bring on your arguments

I go around and around in my head with this issue myself...I've hunted with a firearm since I was big enough to fire a 410 shotgun...I've owned my own 12ga since I was 12 (and I think it was still legal then :) )...I've owned and do own many firearms and I believe in training and try to do at least two major classes per year as well as my own training regiment. I really DO understand how important it is for someone to KNOW how to use a firearm properly and safely and how dangerous a person can be to themselves and other innocent people if they DON'T KNOW.

 

HOWEVER...

 

I ALSO believe that people have a basic, natural/God-given right to carry ARMS for their own protection and for the protection of other innocents...that includes but is not limited to firearms. Our Constitution recognizes and protects that right and there is nothing in our Constitution that requires "training" to bear arms any more than the Constitution requires a certain level of IQ and/or education before being allowed to exercise (or not exercise) their chosen religion or to engage in free speech. So...I am left to conclude that "permit-less" carry is what our Constitution demands and that ALL laws restricting the right to keep and bear arms IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

[R_Bert]

apparently the question was sufficiently answered........

[Just2Honor]

I find it very disconcerting that on the forum by TFA there is only one entry on this subject under "State Legislative" and that was on April 8 after the Senate passed the bill.  Even John Harris has made no comment on the TFA forum.  

Me, I called it DOA when it got to the House.  The Republican leadership in this state wants to keep the anti-gun, liberal-leaning voters happy so they can get some votes.  It was all a show so they could say to the rest of us, "We tried" 

[RobertNashville]

I find it very disconcerting that on the forum by TFA there is only one entry on this subject under "State Legislative" and that was on April 8 after the Senate passed the bill.  Even John Harris has made no comment on the TFA forum.

While TGO is an obvious exception; many, many forums have simply ceased to be a place where there is much activity any longer...most especially true on fast moving subjects. TFA does most of its communicating through its email distribution list and through Facebook because that tends to be the more efficient way to reach people quickly.

I belong to many different forums covering many different subjects that in years past have been extremely active yet probably half or more of them today have extremely low traffic.

 

Me, I called it DOA when it got to the House.  The Republican leadership in this state wants to keep the anti-gun, liberal-leaning voters happy so they can get some votes.  It was all a show so they could say to the rest of us, "We tried"

The "Republican Leadership" has been and continues to be the problem. I was surprised the bill passed the senate...I was surprised it made it to a vote in the senate at all for that matter and as long as we have this current leadership (Gov, Lt Gov and Speaker) it's unlikely we'll see ANY decent firearm related legislation out of the Tennessee legislature.  The only way I see that we can get permit-less carry, open carry, etc. out of this leadership would be with some massive demonstration such as we had with the horn honkers (that I am proud to say I was a part of).  However, when I look at the discussion in this and related threads and I have doubts that there is enough cohesiveness among firearm enthusiasts to get that sort of demonstration going.

[tnhawk]

I find it very disconcerting that on the forum by TFA there is only one entry on this subject under "State Legislative" and that was on April 8 after the Senate passed the bill.  Even John Harris has made no comment on the TFA forum.  

Me, I called it DOA when it got to the House.  The Republican leadership in this state wants to keep the anti-gun, liberal-leaning voters happy so they can get some votes.  It was all a show so they could say to the rest of us, "We tried" 

I assure you that John Harris and TFA haven't been asleep the last few weeks.  TFA members write, call and visit representatives of the State Legislature on issues that affect the citizens of this state.

[Worriedman]

There are maybe 5 legislators who have any desire to move firearms legislation, Sen, Mae Beavers is the most active, and Lt. Gov. Ramsey has done everything but put her in irons, (put that Piss ant Kelsey in her Chairmanship spot on Judiciary) as she "is not a team player" and keeps sponsoring real firearms legislation.

 

We (TFA) stay tuned in and active in attempting to move decent legislation, and lots of times, fighting dumb a** moves by the NRA.  With the current leadership, (Harwell, Ramsey and Haslam) it would take Merlin to get anything of worth through.

[JayC]

But reality doesn't back up your theory....

 

Citizens varying from no training (most people) to a lot of training are 5 times less likely to kill an innocent person in a justified self defense shooting than a police officer which we know has a lot more training than your average citizen.

 

The entire point of carrying a gun is that it requires little to no training for an individual to protect themselves...

 

If you were right, where is all the innocent people getting killed in the 30 states that allow unlicensed open carry?

 

I think people should get training, it's a good idea...  one that I strongly recommend when somebody asks me about getting a firearm...  but I don't think it's the governments business to make people get training...  I'm just not concerned about getting shot and killed by a good guy with a gun...  Government officials with sovereign immunity on the other hand terrify me.

 

So, we are ok with someone with no gun handling experience carry a gun?  That person will get themselves (or worse someone else) shot/ killed.  I agree that 2A rights shouldn't be limited but I also think people need to prove they have adequate knowledge to USE a gun.Just carrying it doesn't help anybody.  Come up with a way that keeps our freedoms free, but requires sufficient training to use a firearm and then you have my vote.  You have to keep the irresponsible and uneducated from just strapping on a gun and feeling empowered and then trying to use.  

 

Bring on your arguments

 

[Oh Shoot]

....

Citizens varying from no training (most people) to a lot of training are 5 times less likely to kill an innocent person in a justified self defense shooting than a police officer which we know has a lot more training than your average citizen.

 

C'mon, that's got to be a pretty hinky "stat" at best. All kinds of sampling and definition probs.

 

- LEOs are like 5,000 times or whatever more likely to even fire a gun in public than "average" citizen. They are probably still 1,000 times or whatever more likely to do so than even people who carry a heater daily

 

- even if based just on "people who carry guns", no way to know just how many that is, as (1) having a permit does not mean one carries and (2) nobody knows how many people carry legally without a permit around the US

 

- etc

 

- OS

[JayC]

It's not a hinky stat...  it was in a peer reviewed journal...  The stat looked at all citizen self defense shootings and all police justified shootings for a given time in a given state (I believe it was PA).

 

The stats are in percentages so it doesn't matter if police officers are per capita more likely to have to shoot, it only looks at the % chance of an innocent person being killed.

 

Now, the stat may mean something entirely different than what I propose...  it may mean that more shootings by police officers shouldn't be ruled justified...  it may mean that they are better shots, but need more training on when not to shoot...  it may mean they happen upon situations where they don't have all the information and make their best guess...

 

No matter the reasons behind the stat, at the end of the day you're less likely to shoot and kill an innocent person than a police officer is...  it's just a fact.

 

While we don't know how many people do or don't carry daily on their permit...  or how many people do or don't carry without a permit in different states...  what we do know is when a state passes an unlicensed carry law we don't see an uptick in shootings, and we don't see an uptick in shootings of innocent people.

 

And even if we did there is no need to get the government involved in what type of training one needs to carry a firearm...  the data doesn't support the need for state regulated training.

 

C'mon, that's got to be a pretty hinky "stat" at best. All kinds of sampling and definition probs.

 

- LEOs are like 5,000 times or whatever more likely to even fire a gun in public than "average" citizen. They are probably still 1,000 times or whatever more likely to do so than even people who carry a heater daily

 

- even if based just on "people who carry guns", no way to know just how many that is, as (1) having a permit does not mean one carries and (2) nobody knows how many people carry legally without a permit around the US

 

- etc

 

- OS

 

[Oh Shoot]

One thing about that study that comes to mind is that a large proportion of citizen self defense shooting occur in the home, while cops are more likely to be firing in public where more people are present, so it might not be an indication of skill and training but just probability, but willing to give it more credence than I did due to your explanation. I guess I've seen it referenced before, but got a link so I can look at it a bit more closely?
 

While we don't know how many people do or don't carry daily on their permit...  or how many people do or don't carry without a permit in different states...  what we do know is when a state passes an unlicensed carry law we don't see an uptick in shootings, and we don't see an uptick in shootings of innocent people.
.....

 
Certainly that statement there is verifiability true.
 
- OS

Edited April 21, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[tnguy]

In fact, the training requirements by the state require about an hour of range time, and about 7 hours or watching videos, trying not to fall asleep while an instructor explains, poorly, the difference between single and double action, and telling lies.
 

 

And in truth, what's learned is probably about 30 minutes of video or 15 minutes of reading a well-written list. The government just seems to like making many things as awkward as humanely possible, just because.

[tnguy]

I would prefer minor government involvement to seeing a new posted business every time I go somewhere.

 

minor government involvement? There's nothing minor about the TN carry laws.

[tnguy]

Funny you mention that, I used to run a red turn light for several years, every day on principle. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I used to run a red light here on principle too. Then they took it out and put stop signs in  :rolleyes:  

 

So I just found a different way to go.

Edited April 21, 2014 by tnguy

[DaveTN]

got a link so I can look at it a bit more closely?

[Oh Shoot]

got a link so I can look at it a bit more closely?

 

I must not have heard some whoosh?

 

- OS

[R_Bert]

This talks about the report JayC is probably thinking of - http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/12/foghorn/guns-violence-united-states-numbers/

 

Nick Leghorn  compilation, Murder Rate by Group (7th graph down) from a VPC study.

Edited April 21, 2014 by R_Bert

[Oh Shoot]

This talks about the report JayC is probably thinking of - http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/12/foghorn/guns-violence-united-states-numbers/

 

Nick Leghorn  compilation, Murder Rate by Group (7th graph down) from a VPC study.

 

Appreciate the link, but that does indeed compare murder rate. Which is certainly interesting if we want to compare relative thuggery (which one would be advised to tiptoe around here if at all), but not exactly about what we were discussing.

 

- OS

Edited April 21, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[R_Bert]

Appreciate the link, but that does indeed compare murder rate. Which is certainly interesting if we want to compare relative thuggery (which one would be advised to tiptoe around here if at all), but not exactly about what we were discussing.

 

- OS

yeah, I seem to remember some  report on frequency & distribution of unintentional shootings, but do not quickly find it.  The ratios on the one above sounded familiar in context of conversation. As I recall, UIDs was mentioned in gun-media about the time of the NYC fiasco a few years back (9 people hit by fragments etc??)

[JayC]

The study isn't online you'll have to go to a college library to get the raw text:

 

Cramer C and Kopel D. "Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws." Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994 

 

I agree there could well be external factors on why the incident rate is so high...  but those factors would generally encourage unlicensed carry, not discourage it.

 

One thing about that study that comes to mind is that a large proportion of citizen self defense shooting occur in the home, while cops are more likely to be firing in public where more people are present, so it might not be an indication of skill and training but just probability, but willing to give it more credence than I did due to your explanation. I guess I've seen it referenced before, but got a link so I can look at it a bit more closely?
 

 
Certainly that statement there is verifiability true.
 
- OS

 

[R_Bert]

 

The study isn't online you'll have to go to a college library to get the raw text:

 

Cramer C and Kopel D. "Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws." Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994 

 

I agree there could well be external factors on why the incident rate is so high...  but those factors would generally encourage unlicensed carry, not discourage it.

 

this it?

 

http://rkba.org/research/cramer/shall-issue.html

[JayC]

Not the study I was referring too... but WOW it's a study I've been looking for :)  Police Officers in Florida are more than 3 times as likely to murder somebody than a permit holder...  wow, just wow...  time to read all the details on this study ;)  I was aware of studies having to do with domestic violence convictions... but it must be my birthday :)

 

My post above I cite the police are 5 times more likely to kill an innocent over a regular citizen.  Next time I see my printed copy of the study I'll scan it in and post the pdf.

 

This talks about the report JayC is probably thinking of - http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/12/foghorn/guns-violence-united-states-numbers/

 

Nick Leghorn  compilation, Murder Rate by Group (7th graph down) from a VPC study.

 

[JayC]

There you go, there is the study, and it was MO not PA where the research came from.

 

this it?

 

http://rkba.org/research/cramer/shall-issue.html