I need recommendations for a defensive shotgun.

[JohnC]

Mossberg M590A1 9 shot with ghost ring sights.




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[bird333]

Which is more likely to go through walls? #1, #4 buckshot or the typical AR round? List in order from most likely to least likely.

[dcloudy777]

Which is more likely to go through walls? #1, #4 buckshot or the typical AR round? List in order from most likely to least likely.

 

All three will go right through at least two interior walls worth of drywall easily.

 

The 5.56 round is much more likely to deliver the entire "payload" into the target than either shotshell....

[tbenedict]

I've been watching this post as well thinking along the same lines that a shotgun would have more knockdown and less penetration for home defense use. That said, I keep a 38 revolver loaded with fancy hollow points since I can access and secure it more easily.

[Smith]

Reduced penetration in walls ( http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html) , lower recoil, faster follow up shots, more follow up shots before reloading, more practical to suppress, easier to maneuver through doorways and halls... Those were my reasons for making an AR an important part of my HD prep. I still have a shotgun, but it is solely for filling a particular fatal funnel with lead while I am barricaded.

Which would be 90% of home defense situations.

 

I'm still sticking with the shotgun for this purpose. I've seen drywall test that say the opposite of the above, so not much I can say about that. I will say that your load makes a difference. Birdshot is not a terrible idea for close up work ie HD. I load heavier stuff behind it just in case, but I like the ability to shoot so many dynamic rounds out of one gun (shotgun). It's hard to beat for versatility and close up work.

[Peace]

OP: I want to take a minute to congratulate you for accepting the responsibility and taking the initiative to prepare yourself to protect you and your loved ones.

For the moment, let's say that by "AR" we are talking 5.56 or .223 caliber.

5.56 or shotgun slug or 00 buck.... and penetration. Penetration will differ for the many variations of rounds available for both - the construction of your "building" and your chosen lines of fire will all affect penetration.

in 5.56. hornady TAP 75gr has proven very effective at stopping BGs. black Hills loaded w Barnes 55grTSX are also highly effective rounds.

might I suggest: Learn the 4 laws of firearm safety cold. obey them always.

1). You are doing a good thing in thinking this through. keep asking questions and reading. grrreat info & folks on TGO.

2) get some training by a reputable defensive tactics/firearms instructor (inferring from your posts that you are relatively new to the aforementioned firearms).

3) Plan your home defense, where to entrench, when to engage (the line in the sand), where you might retreat if that becomes a necessity (fire, overwhelming numbers, etc.). Don't just have a weapon (tool); have a plan (and the learned ability) to effectively utilize that tool in your defense.

4). Intentionally choose lines of fire. know what is beyond your target along your lines of fire (adjust line of fire if necessary/possible). - making sure you cannot be "scared into" shooting toward a portion of the building which is occupied by loved ones. if you can incorporate natural backstops like brick or stone fireplaces, library shelves full of books, etc., then do so.

5). practice at your chosen distance like your life depends on it. practice makes permanent, so slow and correct is better than fast and sloppy. over-penetration is less of a concern if you can reliably (read every trigger press) put rounds on target at chosen distances under stress. later, if you can do so safely, introduce stress into your training.

good luck! also, if you have kids, find a way to secure your HD weapons so that kids cannot access them.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Peace

[dcloudy777]

Which would be 90% of home defense situations.

 

I'm still sticking with the shotgun for this purpose. I've seen drywall test that say the opposite of the above, so not much I can say about that. I will say that your load makes a difference. Birdshot is not a terrible idea for close up work ie HD. I load heavier stuff behind it just in case, but I like the ability to shoot so many dynamic rounds out of one gun (shotgun). It's hard to beat for versatility and close up work.

 

A couple of  highly-opinionated things:  :2cents:

 

Birdshot is a horrible idea for defensive use.  It cannot be counted on to penetrate a human attacker enough to incapacitate at any range longer than muzzle contact distance.  Which brings me to my second thing:

 

Expecting any projectile that can't penetrate drywall to stop an aggressive attacker is just wishful thinking, unless you are launching bowling ball or something even heavier.

 

The autoloading rifle is superior in every measurable aspect except price to the shotgun.  Outside of hitting small, fast-moving targets, the rifle does everything the shotgun can do at least as well, and is capable of much more if the need arises.  It's a much easier weapon to learn how to "fight" effectively.  It has much less recoil.  It allows for much, much more precise shot placement with much less chance of projectiles straying outside the target.

[Ted S.]

You can punch through both sides of a drywall-wall with enough motivation.

 

If this shirtless tatooed hippy can do it, I don't see why ammo can't.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez7as08FYtc

[Smith]

A couple of  highly-opinionated things:  :2cents:

 

Birdshot is a horrible idea for defensive use.  It cannot be counted on to penetrate a human attacker enough to incapacitate at any range longer than muzzle contact distance.  Which brings me to my second thing:

 

Expecting any projectile that can't penetrate drywall to stop an aggressive attacker is just wishful thinking, unless you are launching bowling ball or something even heavier.

 

The autoloading rifle is superior in every measurable aspect except price to the shotgun.  Outside of hitting small, fast-moving targets, the rifle does everything the shotgun can do at least as well, and is capable of much more if the need arises.  It's a much easier weapon to learn how to "fight" effectively.  It has much less recoil.  It allows for much, much more precise shot placement with much less chance of projectiles straying outside the target.

What you are talking about is not defensive but rather a offensive room clearing search with tactical fighting. Home defense is an entirely different mentality, tactic, and position thus a different tool is needed altogether.

 

Unless, you are trained and usually with backup, searching or room clearing is not a good idea. You are adding too many variables that the gun itself can't answer. Those answers have to come from a persona dynamically trained to anticipate multiple changing scenarios in real time. Home Defense is  generally about a singular defensive response and then letting the police tie up the ends or what ever is left.

 The typical person, even one who recreationally shoots, is never advised to use that tactic. In that regard, using a shotgun you are actually more likely to hit your target with a spread pattern shot than a single projectile. Which in theory is safer for numerous reasons.

 

You can't tell me that a shotgun that maxes out it's range at about 50 yards is MORE dangerous than a rifle that is still lethal beyond 300m in CQB. All those test show is that up close and personal a shotgun is a better option, thus the ages old idea that close and personal work is shotgun work. Just look at what buckshot does to a 4 legged critter and what a rifle does to the same critter. There is far less over penetration or through and through with buckshot even at close range than a rifle.

 

It's all opinion like you said and you are clearly more comfortable and proficient with you plan, but as a general rule for the OP's question I still think the shotgun is the best all round option. There is no perfect answer, but either one will more than answer the question ;)

[dcloudy777]

If I knew I was going to fight one adversary that was't wearing armor, didn't take cover, and was just going to stand there directly facing me while I shot him, the shotgun might be my weapon of choice.

Of course, if I knew who the threat was and when and where he was going to attack me, I'd just be somewhere else that day...

[KKing]

[quote name="dcloudy777" post="1159661" timestamp="1402964034"]If I knew I was going to fight one adversary that was't wearing armor, didn't take cover, and was just going to stand there directly facing me while I shot him, the shotgun might be my weapon of choice. Of course, if I knew who the threat was and when and where he was going to attack me, I'd just be somewhere else that day...[/quote] I can tell our lines of thought coincide. I too, use an AR for home defense. I've seen ballistic testing of different shotgun loads that would be absolute hell on meat, and also whatever is behind the next two walls. I don't trust my life to birdshot, period. To the OP, you have to decide for yourself. I'd advise you try to rent a 12ga shotgun, even if it's not the models you're suggesting, and see if that's really what you want. Also rent an AR or borrow a friends if you think that's a possibility. Whatever you choose, train. Train, train, train. I'm not talking about plinking, I'm talking about paying someone who has been there and done that to teach you. Ultimately, what you're confident in and component with is the best weapon for you. Ballistic charts and penetration tests don't mean squat if you can't handle/aren't comfortable with your weapon

[Smith]

[quote name="dcloudy777" post="1159661" timestamp="1402964034"]If I knew I was going to fight one adversary that was't wearing armor, didn't take cover, and was just going to stand there directly facing me while I shot him, the shotgun might be my weapon of choice.Of course, if I knew who the threat was and when and where he was going to attack me, I'd just be somewhere else that day...[/quote]You might need to practice with a shotgun more. It's the wheel gun of the long gun world. BTW - how many home invaders wearing body armor are you planning on and what do you have that they are coming for it like a SWAT team? =-O Edited June 17, 2014 by Smith

[bird333]

I do plan to rent a shotgun, but I am still trying to determine which one will over penetrate the least.  My gut tells me that the AR will penetrate more.  I don't want to use birdshot in a shotgun, but I think I am open to going down to #4 buckshot if over penetration is less but will still do the job.

[dcloudy777]

You might need to practice with a shotgun more. It's the wheel gun of the long gun world. BTW - how many home invaders wearing body armor are you planning on and what do you have that they are coming for it like a SWAT team? =-O

The shotgun is a much more complicated system than the revolver, or a proper autoloading rifle for that matter, and requires significantly more training to achieve proficiency.

Between formal training clases,training, qualifications, 3-gun, tactical shotgun matches, and practicing for said matches, I'd say it's safe to say My shotgun round count is probably approaching 6 digits, encompassing pretty much any shotgun model out there. I may very well have shot more rounds through a shotgun than I have an AR. The more I shoot both, the more I favor the rifle. It just does everything better and easier, except shooting small quick targets.

Sure the shotgun will do the job, but other than a cheaper entry cost, I just don't see a single advantage of the shotgun over the autoloading rifle for defensive purposes.

[Smith]

Haha, OK. Agree to disagree but while it works for you it goes against the grain of the vast majority of HD instruction and principles that have been tested and proved over a very long study period. It's not a right or wrong thing. Six of one half a dozen of the other.

[molonlabetn]

You might need to practice with a shotgun more. It's the wheel gun of the long gun world. BTW - how many home invaders wearing body armor are you planning on and what do you have that they are coming for it like a SWAT team? =-O

Oh he can run a scattergun just fine, I can attest...

Back on topic though. There's no question that shotguns work... They will put somebody down, hard, without question. Noone is suggesting the shotgun is not effective. The point is, in the age of closer neighbors, thinner walls, and multiple armed home invaders who have been known to wear body armor or be methed out of their minds... A faster-handling, lower-recoil, vest-piercing, higher-capacity weapon which provides arguably more concentrated tissue destruction with pinpoint accuracy cannot be denied to be an improvement. And you don't have dozens of projectiles penetrating multiple walls to account for with each shot.

[Stegall Law Firm]

I do plan to rent a shotgun, but I am still trying to determine which one will over penetrate the least.  My gut tells me that the AR will penetrate more.  I don't want to use birdshot in a shotgun, but I think I am open to going down to #4 buckshot if over penetration is less but will still do the job.

 

Stop listening to your gut and start listening to real-world, validated information based on facts and science.  If over penetration is a concern then 223 is the better choice (with the right bullet).  Honestly to me, when it comes to over penetration and terminal performance, it's pretty much a toss up between AR or shotgun.  They both could over penetrate, they both could blow the shit out of whatever you're shooting.  Where the AR gets my vote is its ease of use, especially when accounting for other people in your home.  My old lady couldn't even shoulder a 12 gauge.  Maybe a youth model 20 gauge, but I'm not about to invest in a new platform and ammo.  Then there's the recoil.

 

I tried to shoot a pump shotgun from prone once; couldn't even reach the hand guard to work the slide without great difficulty.  That's when I fired it as a viable defensive long arm.  I figure if I'm in a gunfight I'll either be prone, crouched, kneeling, squatting, possibly laying sideways shooting around cover.  The AR is much easier to operate under these conditions.

[dcloudy777]

I tried to shoot a pump shotgun from prone once; couldn't even reach the hand guard to work the slide without great difficulty. 

 

Running a pump shotgun from the prone takes the suck to a whole new level.  :yuck:

[tbenedict]

I have no experience, but it seems that if the first shot didn't work, you probably wouldn't be prone for long....and the intruder would probably be running poopless out the door...

[Peace]

I have no experience, but it seems that if the first shot didn't work, you probably wouldn't be prone for long....and the intruder would probably be running poopless out the door...

 

stuff happens fast - or so I've heard.   ... if "the first shot didn't work", you might be prone for a very, very long time.  

[bigun]

First I live out in the country so over penetration is no worry, plus there is only me and my wife here. So an 870 with 18" barrel loaded 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug etc. Should make you rethink your choices. Second I have never felt the recoil of anything I was shooting when the blood was pumping. And I have had it pumping a few times as I am and old man.Haha. Plus there are other toys at hand also. Just my thoughts. But that's why they make Fords and Chevys.

[dcloudy777]

I have never felt the recoil of anything I was shooting when the blood was pumping

 

Just because you don't feel the recoil doesn't mean it isn't slowing you down.  It's not about protecting my delicate shoulder, it's about hitting targets faster.  ;)

 

Again, if the shotgun did any major components of defensive shooting better than the rifle, then it might be a compromise worth making... but it really doesn't.  The rifle will do anything the shotgun will, and a whole lot more. 

[bigun]

Just because you don't feel the recoil doesn't mean it isn't slowing you down.  It's not about protecting my delicate shoulder, it's about hitting targets faster.  ;)

 

Again, if the shotgun did any major components of defensive shooting better than the rifle, then it might be a compromise worth making... but it really doesn't.  The rifle will do anything the shotgun will, and a whole lot more. 

I'm sorry it was just my 2 cents worth and I thought we were talking about shotguns.

[dcloudy777]

I'm sorry it was just my 2 cents worth and I thought we were talking about shotguns.

 

Oh don't apologize, we're just talkin' here.  If we all thought the same way this would be a boring place.   :cheers:

 

Discussions like this are how we all learn new things and new ways to think about old things. 

Edited June 17, 2014 by dcloudy777

[bigun]

Just didn't want to come off wrong. That's why I said Ford and Chevy, everybody likes different things