I need recommendations for a defensive shotgun.

[btq96r]

Buy an AR15.  Seriously.  It's a much, much better choice for defensive purposes, and you can get an incredible deal on one these days.

 

You can find a decent deal on the gun itself.  Then you want an optic, rail system, ect.. Next comes rounds to take it to the range and before long you are staring at the hole in your bank account.

[bird333]

I was looking on Bud's gun shop and I don't think I want to spend $1200 on a VersaMax tactical shotgun.  Especially since I could spend the extra money on an AR.  Also it has a 22" barrel.  It seems most of the shotguns I am interested in have a 18" barrel.  Is 22" too long?  They have a 870 police for about $650.  Is that a reasonable price?  If you guys know of where I can get a better price please speak up. :)

[nightrunner]

Why do you do this? It's Kel-Tec. Here's their own website: http://www.keltecweapons.com/

That wasnt a grammar correction. Kel-tec doesnt have the best quality on some things, ill wait for ruger to make a better looking copy of it

[Guest semiautots]

That wasnt a grammar correction. Kel-tec doesnt have the best quality on some things, ill wait for ruger to make a better looking copy of it

 

OK, but recommending Ruger for quality is just a little bit funny.  One of the worst quality handguns I ever had was a P89DC.  One of the few guns I have sold.

[nightrunner]

The keltec copies they make are more reliable and have better fit and finish than the keltec versions.

Their Pseries pistols werent the best.

[mikegideon]

The keltec copies they make are more reliable and have better fit and finish than the keltec versions.

Their Pseries pistols werent the best.

 

Yep. The LCP is lots slicker than the P3AT

[nightrunner]

Same with the LC9.

I want to like the KSG, but not until it gets better fit, finish, and quality of materials,same for the PMR30

[whitewolf001]

I'm a fan of any home defense shotgun with the exception of the 500, nothing against owners of such but my observation is of that when you cycle the action after it's new, the weapon becomes a rattle can. Good guns for the money but I just can't get over the 'rattle-rattle' aspect after putting some rounds down range. Good shotguns for the money, 870 or 590/590A1; go with either and you won't be disappointed. If money isn't an issue, get a Saiga, Spas12, FNH SLP, or Benelli M2 or M4. My favorite compromise in between for price/firepower/semi or pump is the Remington 1100 Police, under 1k, can rapidly deploy shot down range and is a pretty simple design.

Edited April 9, 2014 by whitewolf001

[bird333]

Which one guys?

 

www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/56472/Remington+870+Express+Tactical+12ga+18%22+Ghost+Ring+Sights

 

www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411540290

 

Also, are these really 7+1 capacity?  They seem like they will only hold 6.   What accessories should I get to go with it?

[Guest theconstitutionrocks]

I don't have one and I don't necessarily plan on getting one, but anyone have any thoughts about the "Pardner" shotgun usually seen at Wally World? It's supposed to be Chinese manufacture but the reason I find it interesting (besides the price) is that it is chunky, heavy, kinda ugly...any issues with reliability? I was kind of raised to believe that the more rugged the weapon, the better....just askin....thoughts?

[nightrunner]

The pardner pump is an 870 clone.

[JWKilgore]

... I have never fired a shotgun before BTW.

I couldn't help but notice this remark, and I think it's key to your decision. It's easy to learn to work a pump, but it's also extremely easy to mess up a pump under high stress. If you don't pull the slide all the way back or push all the way forward you'll have a malfunction. If you do get a pump make sure you devote several cases of low-recoil birdshot toward practicing and developing muscle memory. Also, a lightweight "tactical" pump 12-ga kicks like a mule. If you think you can remember to rack the slide properly after receiving a massive kick (along with deafening roar and blinding fireball) about 15 seconds after waking up from a sound sleep, then go for it.

 

If you don't have time, location, or funds for this much practice, then consider a reliable semi-auto. Also consider a 20-ga. A semi-auto is no excuse for not practicing, but if you aren't going to practice anyway then at least get something that does some of the work for you. And a 20-ga, especially a semi-auto version, has considerably less kick than a pump 12. As for power, I keep reading that a 20-Ga delivers the same energy as two simultaneous hits from a .44 Magnum (hardly an under powered round, and we're talking TWO of them). When someone looking for a "defense" shotgun says something like "never fired a shotgun before", I always point them toward the [url=http://www.mossberg.com/products/shotguns/mossberg-international-sa-20/sa-20-tactical]Mossberg SA-20[/url]. They run slightly more than a quality pump 12. A pump 20 would be even cheaper.

 

On the other hand, 20-ga ammo is slightly more expensive, so if you DO plan on shooting a lot then stick with the 12.

 

 

Ammo selection isn't as critical with the shotgun as it is with other systems.  Basically buckshot in #1, 0, 00, or 000 will do a very effective job of stopping threats.  Anything smaller will not reliably achieve the penetration into a human target  necessary to stop a threat.  #4 buck is pretty marginal, IMHO stick with #1 or larger.  Reduced recoil loads are beneficial.. you give up practically nothing in performance and get faster follow up shots.  Pattern your load of choice at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards.  You need to know where the pellets are going to go at each of those distances.  Maybe stretch it out to 40 or so if you have the room.

 

Birdshot is for practice (you should buy and shoot a lot of it), 3-gun matches (if you do that sorta thing) and, well, birds.  It has no place in an anti-personnel role.  None.  Absolutely none.  The only legitimate reason for using birdshot against people is if you don't have anything else. 

Ammo choice depends on where you live, and where you plan on shooting. The military's go-to shell is 00 buck because they often engage at longer distances (larger pellets carry more energy for longer distances), through barriers (foliage, doors, etc.), and they don't get fired or sued if a few pellets penetrate too far and cause "collateral damage". Many domestic police agencies have switched to #1 buck. With more pellets with suitable penetration, this size causes more damage than 00, plus the smaller pellets are less likely to keep going and kill bystanders. Smaller pellets like #4 don't work well at outdoor distances in military or police situations.

 

If you're out on the ranch and plan on engaging enemies outside (or you are stocking massive quantities of cheap ammo for the zombie apocalypse where you don't have to worry about lawsuits), then go with military 00 with slugs in a side-saddle. But if you don't plan on leaving your yard in a defensive scenario, then you'll never need anything larger than #1. At typical max indoor ranges, #4 is perfectly suitable, even with heavy clothing. If you live in an area surrounded by other houses consider #3 buck to be the max shot size. If you live in an apartment complex where the only thing separating you from your neighbors is a couple of Sheetrock walls, or in a house where friendlies (i.e., kids) may nor may not be where you think they are in the middle of the night, then I HIGHLY recommend dropping down to lead BB or even #2 tungsten bird shot. Yes, the statement, "bird shot is for birds, not bad guys" is valid, but when most people think "bird shot" they're thinking dove or rabbit load, which IS completely unsuitable. And while even the larger bird shot sizes may not meet FBI 12" penetration criteria, at across-the-room distances a bad guy would have a very hard time standing after absorbing a full load of 0.15" #2 pellets.

 

Penetration Testing with various shot loads: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

Edited April 22, 2014 by JWKilgore

[graycrait]

For home defense just get a IAC Hawk 982 (Norinco) 870 clone and save your money for other high end play or carry guns.

 

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=82794

 

http://kissurvival.com/hawk-982-shotgun/

[bird333]

Which one guys?

 

www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/56472/Remington+870+Express+Tactical+12ga+18%22+Ghost+Ring+Sights

 

www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411540290

 

Also, are these really 7+1 capacity?  They seem like they will only hold 6.   What accessories should I get to go with it?

What side saddle, case and shoulder sling do you guys recommend or does it even really matter?

Edited April 24, 2014 by bird333

[molonlabetn]

My vote goes to a 590A1... Had one of those for years, even ran it in 3-gun heavy metal. Great shooter, fast to reload due to no loading gate in the way.

I currently use a Benelli M4 for HD, loaded with 3" 000 Remington Buckshot. I preferred 2-3/4" 00 Remington 8 pellet Buckshot in the 590 (it patterned better).

[homeagain]

VP Biden says any old double barrel will do!  :rofl:

 

Seriously, any of the above will do.  Me personally, I was sold on a Winchester 1300 Defender many years ago, that is what I have.  Great gun.

 

Man, I miss my 1300 Defender.  Traded for a DSLR for the wife and miss it.  Great running shotty.

[blahX3]

Vepr 12!!

[RoDan]

I have both an 870 and a 590. I use the 870 for HD. It is an express tacticool from Wally Whirl. I much prefer the safety setup on the 590, but on the 870 I keep it hammer down on an empty chamber with the safety off. Rack then attack. I went and did the typical small parts upgrades to the 870 to make it more like a police. Ran an additional 30 bucks in parts or something like that. Extractor, carrier dog spring, mag spring, and follower. Probably not necessary, but for some reason I can't leave anything stock. If I was to only do one, no doubt it would be the carrier dog spring. It is a heavier spring that elevates heavier HD loads like buckshot and slugs more reliably. It is a MUST if you are going to shoot any serious 3" stuff.

[McGarrett]

I have a 1300 Defender and my son has a Mossberg not sure if it's a 500 or 590, I'll have to check with him. I like my 1300 Defender. Bought it used from Farnsworth's in Vonore in '95 and it's been a good one.

[bird333]

Buy an AR15.  Seriously.  It's a much, much better choice for defensive purposes, and you can get an incredible deal on one these days.

Can you (or anyone) elaborate on why an AR15 would be a better choice than a shotgun?

[Ted S.]

Get a street sweeper.

[molonlabetn]

Can you (or anyone) elaborate on why an AR15 would be a better choice than a shotgun?

Reduced penetration in walls ( http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html) , lower recoil, faster follow up shots, more follow up shots before reloading, more practical to suppress, easier to maneuver through doorways and halls... Those were my reasons for making an AR an important part of my HD prep. I still have a shotgun, but it is solely for filling a particular fatal funnel with lead while I am barricaded.

[bird333]

This is so confusing.  The first article looked more promising.  But this article (http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall2/) looked worse.  I would like to see a test with #4 and #1 buckshot through drywall.  Overpenetration is a big concern.

[RED333]

Anything at close range, even a sling shot will go past drywall.

If over penetration is a big concern, you might want to reload and use a smaller powder charge,

but you might not stop the bad guy.

A slug going very slow, made from soft lead just might be the ticket.

It would expand and give up if power fast. That would take a bit testing.

The top left 2 are 525 gr Lyman slug recovered from my sand pit, went in about 6".

You slow it down and you just might have what you are looking for, if you miss it will

penetrate drywall.

[URL=http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/casting%20lead/slugbeforeandafter.jpg.html][/URL]

[chances R]

If you are talking HD, don't shy away from the mossberg 500. For games maybe. I've seen em run for years in tough hunting situations with little or no maintanence. Also in home or apartment situations, number 4 shot will make anyone reconsider their intentions or worse while minimizing over penetration. Don't get caught up in all the bells and whistles and do take a course especially since you have no experience.