I need recommendations for a defensive shotgun.

[bird333]

I have been reading around the internet and I think I want a Remington 870.    There seems to be many options.  I want a black shotgun with the most capacity.   What do you guys recommend?

[dcloudy777]

Buy an AR15.  Seriously.  It's a much, much better choice for defensive purposes, and you can get an incredible deal on one these days.

[bird333]

That will come after the shotgun.  I would like advice on getting a good deal on an AR also.

[nightrunner]

The remington 870 police and mossberg 590 are equal in quality, mostly a difference in safety location.

Remington 870 express and mossberg 500 are a step below that but probably wouldn't notice difference to most people.

Any of those are excellent, im partial to the 870 but thats what i grew up hunting with

[Jamie Jackson]

I don't think a person can go wrong with either an 870 or a Mossberg 590.

 

My preference is the 590...mainly because of the location of the safety atop the grip area. It lends itself to running the shotgun with either hand.

But I run a traditional stock. The Mossberg safety location doesn't work well with a pistol grip configuration stock.

 

Dual action bars should be considered in any pump action shotgun for durability.

 

I have tritium ghost ring sights on mine. I run a sidesaddle loaded with buckshot and a butt-cuff loaded with slugs. It's relatively heavy, but mitigates recoil.

 

A sling is advisable...it's the equivalent of a holster for your shotgun and there are times when, administratively, you'll be glad you included one.

 

 

 

I don't know what region of TN you are located in, but you are welcome to give mine a try if you find yourself in the Knoxville or Oak Ridge area.

 

There's some excellent training being offered in our area the end of this month as well (by our own Randy Harris)...you can find the info in the "Tactics and Training" area of this forum.

There is a lot of mythology surrounding shotguns, quality training dispels those myths and is an excellent investment in yourself imho.

 

 

Good luck with your choice.

[runco]

VP Biden says any old double barrel will do!  :rofl:

 

Seriously, any of the above will do.  Me personally, I was sold on a Winchester 1300 Defender many years ago, that is what I have.  Great gun.

[ls3_kid]

VP Biden says any old double barrel will do!  :rofl:

 

Seriously, any of the above will do.  Me personally, I was sold on a Winchester 1300 Defender many years ago, that is what I have.  Great gun.

 

 

That's what I have is just an ole side by side :(




Then an AK and an AR.  :)

[E4 No More]

Don't know where you are, but Specialty Arms had 870's with extended mag for $367 last Saturday. I came close to buying one, but I didn't for a few reasons. If you let go of one or two rounds in the home you'll hear nothing for a long time, (think another threat). If you hit someone with a load of buckshot at inside ranges you'll play hell cleaning up the mess. Recovery for follow-up shots is slow. Some have said the AR15, but I personally do not like the idea of sending a bunch of rifle rounds flying around the house/neighborhood. My personal choice is a 9mm AR15.

[bird333]

Any reason to get a pistol grip over a normal stock? I am thinking just the normal stock. I have never fired a shotgun before BTW.

[E4 No More]

Any reason to get a pistol grip over a normal stock? I am thinking just the normal stock. I have never fired a shotgun before BTW.

To me the difference is...do you want the recoil into your shoulder or into the web of your hand?

[Guest semiautots]

VP Biden says any old double barrel will do!  :rofl:

 

Seriously, any of the above will do.  Me personally, I was sold on a Winchester 1300 Defender many years ago, that is what I have.  Great gun.

 

Just step on your back porch and give a couple "blasts".

 

I have a Beretta 1201 which is light and beats you up, and a 590 Mossberg.  Both are good quality.

[bird333]

I was talking about the ones that still have the shoulder stock but the grip is like a handgun.

[E4 No More]

I was talking about the ones that still have the shoulder stock but the grip is like a handgun.

Best of both worlds to me.

[dcloudy777]

That will come after the shotgun.  I would like advice on getting a good deal on an AR also.

 

Fair enough.

 

Autoloading shotguns are awesome, but expensive (the ones that work anyway), so the pump is likely where you're at.

 

See if you can try the 870 and the Mossberg 590 (avoid the 500 like the plague, made of aluminum... steel is better in shotgun world).

Quality-wise they're pretty much the same, it's a matter of preference.  If you like the pistol-grip + stock like you mentioned, the safety placement on the Mossberg is terrible for that.

 

As for the stock... the pistol grip swings a little faster, and is easier to move around with one hand.  The traditional stock points more naturally for most people, and is faster to load.  Again, try to shoot both kinds of gun and see which you prefer.  Stocks aren't terribly expensive, and you can always change your mind later.

 

As to "cruiser" style pistol-grip only shotguns... you didn't mention those.  Good.   :pleased:  Don't.  Unless you're breaching doors or just look for a range toy, they're worse than useless.  

 

Whatever you decide on, understand that the shotgun is the toughest small-arm to learn how to "fight" effectively.  It starts out low on ammo, and just gets worse with every shot.  Practice loading.  A lot.  Several companies make dummy rounds that work great for this.  Sidesaddles work well for carrying a little extra ammo, and there are good belt carriers available too.  Basically with a shotgun if you aren't actively engaging targets, you should be shoving shells in the tube.

 

Ammo selection isn't as critical with the shotgun as it is with other systems.  Basically buckshot in #1, 0, 00, or 000 will do a very effective job of stopping threats.  Anything smaller will not reliably achieve the penetration into a human target  necessary to stop a threat.  #4 buck is pretty marginal, IMHO stick with #1 or larger.  Reduced recoil loads are beneficial.. you give up practically nothing in performance and get faster follow up shots.  Pattern your load of choice at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards.  You need to know where the pellets are going to go at each of those distances.  Maybe stretch it out to 40 or so if you have the room.

 

Birdshot is for practice (you should buy and shoot a lot of it), 3-gun matches (if you do that sorta thing) and, well, birds.  It has no place in an anti-personnel role.  None.  Absolutely none.  The only legitimate reason for using birdshot against people is if you don't have anything else. 

 

I'd recommend a good reduced recoil slug as well, especially since you don't yet have the rifle.  Learn where it hits at 10, 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards.  A slug of three is good thing to have on a sidesaddle or other ammo carrier.  Learn the "select-slug" drill, in case you find yourself needing to make a longer shot.  The easiest (not the fastest, but the most foolproof) is: Rack slide, insert slug into tube rack slide.  It's not the quickest, and you put two rounds of buckshot on the deck, but it always works, no matter how full your tube or what kind of gun you have.

 

Well, That's DCloudy's Shotgun 101.  If you have any other questions, just ask.  We'll be happy to help.  :up:

[bird333]

Fair enough.

 

Autoloading shotguns are awesome, but expensive (the ones that work anyway), so the pump is likely where you're at.

 

See if you can try the 870 and the Mossberg 590 (avoid the 500 like the plague, made of aluminum... steel is better in shotgun world).

Quality-wise they're pretty much the same, it's a matter of preference.  If you like the pistol-grip + stock like you mentioned, the safety placement on the Mossberg is terrible for that.

 

As for the stock... the pistol grip swings a little faster, and is easier to move around with one hand.  The traditional stock points more naturally for most people, and is faster to load.  Again, try to shoot both kinds of gun and see which you prefer.  Stocks aren't terribly expensive, and you can always change your mind later.

 

As to "cruiser" style pistol-grip only shotguns... you didn't mention those.  Good.   :pleased:  Don't.  Unless you're breaching doors or just look for a range toy, they're worse than useless.  

 

Whatever you decide on, understand that the shotgun is the toughest small-arm to learn how to "fight" effectively.  It starts out low on ammo, and just gets worse with every shot.  Practice loading.  A lot.  Several companies make dummy rounds that work great for this.  Sidesaddles work well for carrying a little extra ammo, and there are good belt carriers available too.  Basically with a shotgun if you aren't actively engaging targets, you should be shoving shells in the tube.

 

Ammo selection isn't as critical with the shotgun as it is with other systems.  Basically buckshot in #1, 0, 00, or 000 will do a very effective job of stopping threats.  Anything smaller will not reliably achieve the penetration into a human target  necessary to stop a threat.  #4 buck is pretty marginal, IMHO stick with #1 or larger.  Reduced recoil loads are beneficial.. you give up practically nothing in performance and get faster follow up shots.  Pattern your load of choice at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards.  You need to know where the pellets are going to go at each of those distances.  Maybe stretch it out to 40 or so if you have the room.

 

Birdshot is for practice (you should buy and shoot a lot of it), 3-gun matches (if you do that sorta thing) and, well, birds.  It has no place in an anti-personnel role.  None.  Absolutely none.  The only legitimate reason for using birdshot against people is if you don't have anything else. 

 

I'd recommend a good reduced recoil slug as well, especially since you don't yet have the rifle.  Learn where it hits at 10, 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards.  A slug of three is good thing to have on a sidesaddle or other ammo carrier.  Learn the "select-slug" drill, in case you find yourself needing to make a longer shot.  The easiest (not the fastest, but the most foolproof) is: Rack slide, insert slug into tube rack slide.  It's not the quickest, and you put two rounds of buckshot on the deck, but it always works, no matter how full your tube or what kind of gun you have.

 

Well, That's DCloudy's Shotgun 101.  If you have any other questions, just ask.  We'll be happy to help.  :up:

Thanks for the awesome post!  For give some of my noob questions but I am new at this.

 

1. What do you mean by the 'pistol grip swings a little faster'?

2. What are some good autoloading shotguns?

3. How much should I be looking to pay?

4. I assume regarding shells that 000 is larger than 00, 00 is larger than 0 and so on?

5. Can you expand on this?  "Learn the "select-slug" drill, in case you find yourself needing to make a longer shot.  The easiest (not the fastest, but the most foolproof) is: Rack slide, insert slug into tube rack slide.  It's not the quickest, and you put two rounds of buckshot on the deck, but it always works, no matter how full your tube or what kind of gun you have."  I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.

6. What is a 'turkey choke'?

 

I also read a review of some 870 model that didn't have the standard barrel that could be interchanged, do you know what model(s) that is (I can't find it now)?  I want to avoid that.

 

Thanks!

Edited April 7, 2014 by bird333

[RED333]

I have been reading around the internet and I think I want a Remington 870.    There seems to be many options.  I want a black shotgun with the most capacity.   What do you guys recommend?

Black, yes

High capacity, 25

Pistol grip, yes

Sagia 12

[URL=http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/firearms/S12415122.jpg.html][/URL]

[Jamie Jackson]

LOL,

Well Red certainly has a shotgun that encompasses the attributes you looking for.  :up:

 

 

 

To better understand the affect of distance and use at various distances when a shotgun is deployed you might like to take a look at John Marr's "In The Defense of the Shotgun"

 

Excellent article, please pay particular attention to his explanation regards shotgun "Zones".

http://www.officer.com/article/10249128/in-defense-of-the-shotgun

 

A slug is generally chosen for the "C" zone when the spread of buckshot becomes too wide for reliable aimed impact...you move into the zone of requiring rifle-like accuracy.

 

 

 

Pellet Size Chart

 

 

 

 

There are several videos on YouTube where you can see a select slug drill being performed.

Chris Costa certainly has some decent shotgun videos on there. (Costaludus).

Edited April 8, 2014 by prag

[TGO David]

I don't think a person can go wrong with either an 870 or a Mossberg 590.

 

....

 

There's some excellent training being offered in our area the end of this month as well (by our own Randy Harris)...you can find the info in the "Tactics and Training" area of this forum.

There is a lot of mythology surrounding shotguns, quality training dispels those myths and is an excellent investment in yourself imho.

 

 

I have a Mossberg 590 and have had a Remington 870 in the past.  Both are great shotguns.  But I wanted to make sure and draw attention to prag's advice at the end of his post:  You won't do much better than getting some training on whatever you buy from Randy.

[dcloudy777]

Thanks for the awesome post!  For give some of my noob questions but I am new at this.

 

1. What do you mean by the 'pistol grip swings a little faster'?

2. What are some good autoloading shotguns?

3. How much should I be looking to pay?

4. I assume regarding shells that 000 is larger than 00, 00 is larger than 0 and so on?

5. Can you expand on this?  "Learn the "select-slug" drill, in case you find yourself needing to make a longer shot.  The easiest (not the fastest, but the most foolproof) is: Rack slide, insert slug into tube rack slide.  It's not the quickest, and you put two rounds of buckshot on the deck, but it always works, no matter how full your tube or what kind of gun you have."  I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.

6. What is a 'turkey choke'?

 

I also read a review of some 870 model that didn't have the standard barrel that could be interchanged, do you know what model(s) that is (I can't find it now)?  I want to avoid that.

 

Thanks!

 

Okay, I'm back at my computer, so I'll address your questions in order. 

 

 1.  The pistol grip stock gives more leverage to the strong-side arm, and requires less perceived effort to point in different directions.  You can feel this difference for yourself:  take something like a flashlight or a large wrench and "point" it at the target (bending the wrist)... move it around and "point" it at different objects.  Now, take the same object and hold it straight up and down vertically... and move it around the same way... it's easier to move from target to target, right?  That's just the way the human arm works.  That being said, I still prefer the traditional stock... your mileage may vary.

 

2.  Benelli and FN (the SLP is what I shoot in 3-gun) make outstanding autoloading guns.  The Remington Versamax and Mossberg 930 series guns also have good reputations, but I have no personal experience with them.  The Saiga AK-type shotgun can be built to be very good as well.  All of these are significantly more expensive than pump shotguns.  Most of these are more expensive than a basic AR15.

 

3.  $400 should get you into an 870 or 590 easily.  As for autos, the Mossberg guns start around $600, and it just goes up from there.... to be honest I haven't bought a shotgun in years, I'm sure others here are more "current" with pricing information.

 

4. Your assumption is correct.  Prag posted an excellent chart.  :up:

 

5. The "select-slug" drill is just a method for changing the type of shell that's in the chamber.  Here's a scenario:  You are carrying your shotgun, loaded with 00 buck, when you are engaged by a threat around 75 yards away.  The odds of stopping that threat with 00 (or any shotshell) are pretty much nonresistant.  You need a slug.  Luckily, you have two or three in your sidesaddle, and you know where they will hit at 75 yards because you paid attention to DCloudy777.  :wave: The "select-slug" drill is a way (there are several methods) to get the shotshell that's currently in the chamber out, and that slug in... hopefully in a timely fashion.

6.  A "Turkey Choke" is basically what the industry calls a choke constriction tighter than "Extra Full".  I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about chokes.  Cylinder bore can do everything you need a shotgun to do against people.  Interchangeable choke tubes are a plus, and can enhance the capabilities of the shotgun, but not really all that much when you're talking about using it for defense.  Also remember that if you have different choke tubes, you will have different shot patterns at every range, and that's more stuff you have to learn and know.  Also, slug point-of-impact can vary a LOT with different choke tubes (I learned this one the hard way at a match).  :yuck:

 

I don't know about an 870 that uses nonstandard barrels, but that doesn't mean that Remington hasn't made one.  If they did, I'd avoid it too. 

 

Hope that's helpful.  The training mentioned in a couple of the above posts is a very, very good idea as well.  I don't know Mr. Harris, but he has an excellent reputation.  I'll give you as much free internet wisdom as you can stand, but I'm just a guy that has shot a lot of guns and talks too much... no substitute for a good trainer and hands-on.   :rofl:

 

  DanO

Edited April 8, 2014 by dcloudy777

[Guest semiautots]

Kel-Tec makes a shotgun called the KSG that has 2 feeding tubes.  You can put slugs in one and 00 Buck in the other.  You can then select which to use.

 

The gun is around a grand and it is a bullpup pump.  On the cool factor it's a 10.  You would need some sort of sighting system, too.

[nightrunner]

Kel-Tec makes a shotgun called the KSG that has 2 feeding tubes. You can put slugs in one and 00 Buck in the other. You can then select which to use.

The gun is around a grand and it is a bullpup pump. On the cool factor it's a 10. You would need some sort of sighting system, too.

And its a Kel Tec

[A.J. Holst]

I own a defensive shotgun (870 tactical with no cool bolt-ons) and this post has sound advice and good information for a old(er) dog like me.

 

Prag - great article, thanks for the link. What jumped out at me was, "inside of 20 yards, 00 is king" For all you on the metric system, that's 60 FEET and closer so unless you've got an MTV crib, 00 seems to be the optimal loading for a defensive 12ga.

 

My advice would be to shoot a 12ga before you buy. You may be unpleasantly suprised and consider the blast, noise, recoil if  you ever had to discharge it in your home on a dark and cloudy night or at 3am.

 

I have HEARD but not verified that a 20ga could be a viable option, 50% of the recoil for 75% of the effect.

 

While a shotgun was my first choice for a HD weapon in retrospect, it wouldn't be my first choice as a HD weapon

[tbenedict]

I've seen a Rossi Circuit Judge in a few places that really sparked my curiosity. 410 (or 45) with a little more leverage than a pistol but still short for moving in tight quarters. I haven't shot one, but if anyone has a strong opinion on it....

[dcloudy777]

I have HEARD but not verified that a 20ga could be a viable option, 50% of the recoil for 75% of the effect.

 

 

 

The biggest drawback of the 20 gauge is that it severely limits your choices in both guns and ammo.  Reduced recoil 12 gauge loads are available in buckshot and slugs, and feel like birdshot loads when you're shooting.  The buckshot choices for 20 gauge are pretty lousy.  There are a few low-recoil slug loads, but I'm not familiar with any buckshot loads that aren't full power.  Heck, there aren't very many buckshot loads available at all. 

[Guest semiautots]

And its a Kel Tec

 

Why do you do this?  It's Kel-Tec.  Here's their own website:  http://www.keltecweapons.com/