TFB confirms with the BATFE about arm braces!

[whitewolf001]

Apparently the "arm brace" mod for rifle caliber pistols, I.E. AR pistols, AK pistols, etc., are completely legit to be fired from the shoulder. Not something to really celebrate at BUT at the luck we've had with the batmen lately, it's helluva lot better than the alternative! 

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/03/arm-braces-pistols-legal-fired-shoudler/

 

 

"Before you complain, yes I agree, TFB content has been too legal heavy in the past couple of weeks. But this morning when SIG Sauer asked me if I could blog the below BATFE determination letter, because they thought it would be beneficial for the community, I agreed with them. This letter affirms that it is perfectly legal for a shooter to fire a firearm by resting an arm brace, such as the SIG SB15 stabilization brace, against their shoulder, just as it is legal to rest the rear part of a pistol, such as a AR-15 buffer tube, against the shoulder.  Alex Capps can be seen shooting the SB15 from his shoulder in the above photo."

 

 

[hipower]

YIPPIE!!!

[TrickyNicky]

The system works. Sort of.

[Garufa]

So now they must approve how you can shoot a gun?  The ATF already approved the thing.

[whitewolf001]

So now they must approve how you can shoot a gun?  The ATF already approved the thing.

 

No but people were saying that if you used it improperly that it could violate its usage and it'd be considered an SBR. With how the BATFE operates, you don't think they'd at least try and nail someones butt to the wall like that had this not come out? Don't get me wrong, I agree(also think that there shouldn't be ANY NFA but meh, what do I know, I just read the Bill of Rights), I'm just saying we all know how these douchenozzles operate.

Edited April 3, 2014 by whitewolf001

[teecro]

No but people were saying that if you used it improperly that it could violate its usage and it'd be considered an SBR. With how the BATFE operates, you don't think they'd at least try and nail someones butt to the wall like that had this not come out? Don't get me wrong, I agree(also think that there shouldn't be ANY NFA but meh, what do I know, I just read the Bill of Rights), I'm just saying we all know how these douchenozzles operate.

 

No fan of gobberment inference here but for the most part I find that blind assumption on the layman's part is the biggest reason for these legal misconceptions. 

[Oh Shoot]

So now they must approve how you can shoot a gun?  The ATF already approved the thing.

No but people were saying that if you used it improperly that it could violate its usage and it'd be considered an SBR. With how the BATFE operates, you don't think they'd at least try and nail someones butt to the wall like that had this not come out?...

 
No way they could legislate method of firing an otherwise legal configuration, no history of even trying that in the whole history of firearms regulation. Why? Because there's absolutely nothing in USC about that.

A newbie public defender could have shot it down if they tried to bring the first case.

Of course, they can simply change their mind about the legality of the brace itself. That sort of thing is not unprecedented at all.

 

No way this thing would have been approved if it were being marketed by Oh Shoot Enterprises instead of SIG though, IMHO, as seem pretty obvious the release product is significantly different than the prototype that got the actual approval. Course, now CIA is selling the thing for the AK also, now that the precedent has been set. So far anyway.

 

At least it will stop the blather about it from armchair firearm legal wannabees.

 

Aesthetically, it sucks, but ergonomically, it's da bomb!

 

 

- OS
 
 

Edited April 3, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Hershmeister]

Ummm... Isn't that an SBR since there is a vertical grip on the pistol?

[TrickyNicky]

Ummm... Isn't that an SBR since there is a vertical grip on the pistol?

I think his overall length clears him of the pistol restrictions. Of course, that might be with one if his other uppers. I can't picture OS posting a picture of a felony though. ;)

[Chucktshoes]

[quote name="Hershmeister" post="1133686" timestamp="1396569073"]Ummm... Isn't that an SBR since there is a vertical grip on the pistol?[/quote] Nope. OAL is >26". With a vfg it becomes a "firearm".

[Oh Shoot]

Ummm... Isn't that an SBR since there is a vertical grip on the pistol?

Actually if it were illegal, it would be due to being an AOW, not SBR.
 

I think his overall length clears him of the pistol restrictions. Of course, that might be with one if his other uppers. I can't picture OS posting a picture of a felony though. ;)

Speaking of legal nuances, I actually don't carry or transport it loaded with the VFG attached, since technically it doesn't fit any of the exceptions in TN for "handgun", "rifle", or "shotgun", on person or in vehicle.
 

Nope. OAL is >26". With a vfg it becomes a "firearm".

 
Somebody always bites :) guess it will ever be thus, just like showing a carbine buffer tube on pistol.
 

- OS

Edited April 4, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[c.a.willard]

just out of curiosity, what is the OAL on yours. I am also curious what points to use to measure from to determine legal OAL.  I would imagine it would be the same as a rifle where the muzzle device only adds "length" when it is permanently attached or am i applying logic where i shouldn't.  Likewise, since the brace is not permanently attached it would not be included in length either.  

[teecro]

just out of curiosity, what is the OAL on yours. I am also curious what points to use to measure from to determine legal OAL.  I would imagine it would be the same as a rifle where the muzzle device only adds "length" when it is permanently attached or am i applying logic where i shouldn't.  Likewise, since the brace is not permanently attached it would not be included in length either.  

 

Another thought to keep in mind is that the brace does not have to add any length at all to overall length as it can be slipped onto the buffer tube all the way till it flushes up... My ARP build is well under 23" in length...

Edited April 4, 2014 by teecro

[Oh Shoot]

just out of curiosity, what is the OAL on yours. I am also curious what points to use to measure from to determine legal OAL.  I would imagine it would be the same as a rifle where the muzzle device only adds "length" when it is permanently attached or am i applying logic where i shouldn't.  Likewise, since the brace is not permanently attached it would not be included in length either.  

 

Mine is just a tad over 26" to beginning of crush washer. To end of threads would be about another what, 3/4"? (10.5" barrel)

 

OAL is measured from end of buffer tube to end of barrel, counting threaded portion. Only a permanently installed muzzle device counts toward OAL, just as it does for barrel length. If it's not permanently installed then it's not part of the barrel and can't be counted.

 

Nothing has ever been ruled by ATF to add legal length to the butt end, except a stock, which of course is non-sequitur with a pistol (or "firearm").

 

Even though you can legally add say a cane tip to the buffer, it wouldn't count into legal overall length. Attaching or welding or whatever anything to the buffer tube to reach 26" for purposes of using a VFG would be living quite dangerously IMNSHO.

 

However, there's no prob with any commercially produced buffer tube. At least none so far. The KAK SB15 designed tubes add about 1.5" past carbine length. And of course you could use a rifle tube which would be about another, what, 3" or so?

 

At any rate, with the KAK tube, I get right at a 12" length of pull with the SIG brace. Same as a Crickett rifle, about .5" less than a Ruger American compact, and an inch less than a WASR AK. Quite comfortable, especially with the more vertical Magpul K2 hand grip, takes that little bit of stress on the wrist from a short pull away.

 

- OS

Edited April 4, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Oh Shoot]

Buffer tube to muzzle device. Muzzle device doesn't have to be brazed on to a pistol, for those who care.

Of course, I could be wrong. :D

 

If you want muzzle device to count in OAL, it must be permanently attached in same way to count in barrel length. Rather makes sense in the largely non-nonsensical way rulings are -- barrel is counted in overall length, but non-permanent muzzle device is not part of barrel.

 

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Another thought to keep in mind is that the brace does not have to add any length at all to overall length as it can be slipped onto the buffer tube all the way till it flushes up... My ARP build is well under 23" in length...

 

Yeah, we were talking about desirability of adding legal length for purposes of VFG usage. But the SB15 doesn't count. The KAK tube adds enough to a 10.5" barreled pistol to get there.

 

I think if KAK hadn't come out with their longer buffer tube for the SB15, I might well have gone to a rifle tube to get the LOP comfy and also of course allowing usage of the VFG.

 

It's funny, I don't like a VFG on a regular AR rifle, but it really anchors the shortie version in a way I do like.

 

- OS

Edited April 4, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Fourtyfive]

So if you can harden the brace and back it off the tube then you have a ?

[Oh Shoot]

So if you can harden the brace and back it off the tube then you have a ?

 

I wouldn't recommend you modify it in any way, myself, as then you are "making" something, but it doesn't matter how you attach it to tube, flush or a bit farther back.

 

Have you used one? They're already pert damn firm, not mushy at all.

 

- OS

Edited April 4, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Fourtyfive]

I wouldn't recommend you modify it in any way, myself, as then you are "making" something, but it doesn't matter how you attach it to tube, flush or a bit farther back.

Have you used one? They're already pert damn firm, not mushy at all.

- OS

Don't own one , just curious......I assume if you snug the strap up without an arm in it it could be pretty stout. Edited April 4, 2014 by Fourtyfive

[TMF]

[quote name="Oh Shoot" post="1133771" timestamp="1396582186"]Mine is just a tad over 26" to beginning of crush washer. To end of threads would be about another what, 3/4"? (10.5" barrel) - OS[/quote] So then how does this fit into Tennessee's definition as it relates to having the weapon and ammo together? HCP rules don't apply to this one, do they? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Oh Shoot]

So then how does this fit into Tennessee's definition as it relates to having the weapon and ammo together? HCP rules don't apply to this one, do they? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I already mentioned it. I don't carry it with VFG attached, just in case, so it's just a pistol. QD on it, quick on and off. The SIG brace of course doesn't change anything.

 

- OS

Edited April 4, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[Oh Shoot]

Don't own one , just curious......I assume if you snug the strap up without an arm in it it could be pretty stout.

 

Bout same with or without strap, the wings don't tend to separate. I left strap on just so it's "as designed" and "not modified" or whatever.

 

- OS

[TMF]

[quote name="Oh Shoot" post="1133791" timestamp="1396588111"]I already mentioned it. I don't carry it with VFG attached, just in case, so it's just a pistol. QD on it, quick on and off. The SIG brace of course doesn't change anything. - OS[/quote] Gotcha. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Dustbuster]

Where's the extra page where the agent signed off? Interesting opinion: we can't control how an accessory is used. It's not hard to shoulder a buffer tube pistol anyway, the only thing I don't like about the brace is if someone loses their balance with that thing strapped on there could be some NF's Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 of course it ate my spelling.

[Oh Shoot]

...the only thing I don't like about the brace is if someone loses their balance with that thing strapped on there could be some NF's

 

The odds of you seeing anyone using it strapped to his wrist hover just above zero.

 

- OS

Edited April 13, 2014 by Oh Shoot