MY PERSONAL PATH AWAY FROM THE 1911: Hilton Yam

[graycrait]

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=6631&utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=my-personal-path-away-from-the-1911

[dcloudy777]

The 1911 is an excellent fighting pistol. It's one of my favorites, and one of the finest fighting handguns ever designed.

That being said, it's a lousy choice for a general-issue sidearm.

[Patton]

I have always been somewhat unimpressed with 1911's, they have all had a malfunction or something that I didn't like. I even experienced two FTF in 20 rounds in a Colt this week, I can't say much because my S&W revolver had just as many failures(bad primers/light strikes). It has became my opinion that 1911s are fine machines but not for non-gun people, it seems all of them require some tinkering at some point and have a somewhat difficulty manual of arms.

[DJTC45]

I have six 1911's and they all function perfectly right out of the box, but they would all put a Colt to shame, as far as them needing any "tinkering" some people just can't leave things alone and start swapping parts before they know what the problem is. A good bit of FTF's are due to poor Mags. and weak Recoil Springs, along with not taking a firm grip. I carry a 1911 daily as my personal protection weapon I won't carry anything else, but that's just me.

[Raoul]

meh. Plastic gun apologist is all this piece is. Any one can rationalize anything they want.

[graycrait]

I think what the key to the article is that anyone can keep a 1911 running for themselves, but when a large agency has them it is labor intensive to keep them running 100%.  I have a friend who likes his large agency 1911, but he said he needs two because one is often in the shop due to the volume of fire he trains with. And he is the best Glock shooter I have seen.  It would be interesting to see accurate large agency repair logs for any number of firearm models. 

[TN-popo]

I think what the key to the article is that anyone can keep a 1911 running for themselves, but when a large agency has them it is labor intensive to keep them running 100%.  I have a friend who likes his large agency 1911, but he said he needs two because one is often in the shop due to the volume of fire he trains with. And he is the best Glock shooter I have seen.  It would be interesting to see accurate large agency repair logs for any number of firearm models. 

 

Lol, we must have the same friend.  ;)

[leroy]

For what it's worth... I think the author of the article (...along with those "others" he refers to...) hints at the problem but either hasn't recognized it; or doesn't understand it...

 

Up until the dawn of the CNC age (...the time of the Colts, essex put togethers, and the old military pistols...); folks wanted their carry 1911 to be a reliable shooter for defensive purposes; there were few problems with the 1911; providing they had a good magazine, good ammo, and someone who know how to shoot...

 

Some said the 1911 wasn't sufficiently reliable; but there are lots of reasons not to believe that...Accuracy wasn't "bullseye grade"; it was "combat grade"... Folks built 1911's looser then... That made them reliable... I've handled and owned a bunch of lowly Colts and military rebuilds (...now out of favor with the current 1911 "in-crowd"...) that never failed to go off when they had a proper mag, good ammunition, and a thoroughly trained shooter handling them...

 

The reason that "new" 1911's need all this TLC is that they are too closely machined and fitted... They are, in effect, a modern match grade bullseye gun that the manufacturers are marketing as "defensive guns"... That's why they are 'finicky" and need fixin.... Glocks aint "finicky" out of the box; they are combat guns....

 

leroy, lover of the lowly colt 1911 and that greatest of all colts, the SAA

[Guest TresOsos]

I think this quote from Mr. Yam is the most telling.

 

"The first catalyst for changing platforms had to do with some rather extensive tendonitis issues that I had developed in both elbows, which was both caused and aggravated by using a heavy steel framed gun firing .45 ACP."

 

He is having health issues so he traded running a 1911 .45 acp for a "squat when you pee 1911 9mm, they were finicky and he didn't like them.

 

So he went to a 9mm M&P, has a new line of M&P parts he wants to sell....yada yada yada.

[TGO David]

You people who are discounting what Hilton Said and casually dismissing his years of experience to claim he's a "plastic gun apologist" really need to produce your resumes or get better rhetoric.

[Will Carry]

I have six 1911's and they all function perfectly right out of the box, but they would all put a Colt to shame, as far as them needing any "tinkering" some people just can't leave things alone and start swapping parts before they know what the problem is. A good bit of FTF's are due to poor Mags. and weak Recoil Springs, along with not taking a firm grip. I carry a 1911 daily as my personal protection weapon I won't carry anything else, but that's just me.

 

I'll put my Colt up agin yer six 1911s.  It has never been modified and has never failed to fire. Back to the OP.....I would select a 45acp for my side arm but probably not a 1911.  I love my Colt 1911 but like they say "Steel is ideal but plastic is fantastic." I'd go with a polymer pistol with a double stack magazine.

[DJTC45]

Your colt wouldn't stand a chance against any of the ones I have.

[Guest TresOsos]

You people who are discounting what Hilton Said and casually dismissing his years of experience to claim he's a "plastic gun apologist" really need to produce your resumes or get better rhetoric.

I'm not discounting what Hilton said.

I personally would not reccomend 1911's for police service now of days, especially for younger cops.

Most of them are not "gun guys" and the ones I know spend very little time shooting. They might shoot twice

a year for qualification. And lets face it most younger people I've known over the last 20 years couldn't fix a flat

tire on a bicycle much less understand the workings of a 1911 and how to properly maintain it. They are better suited

to the Glock, designed for the lowest common denominator Austrian conscript who might fire 24 rounds a year for

familiarzation. The Glock solved 2 problems for US Police Departments, training and cost issues. The M&P's are

pretty much like Glocks and the same reasoning applies. I don't think I'm going to pitch my 1911s in the trash and go buy

a volkes pistole made out of recycled pop bottles, just because Hilton's arm is causing him problems  and he

wants to make money selling aftermarket parts for the M&P.

[musicman]

I'm no officer or military vet. I've never yet needed to use my gun to save my life or someone else's. At this point, I am simply an enthusiast/hobbyist who enjoys shooting and also appreciates the potential equalizing power of a firearm in a bad situation.

My following opinion is based solely on things I've seen at many gun ranges and the two IDPA matches I've shot. Very often I see plastic pistol owners complain about mushy/hard triggers, poor accuracy (most of the time I believe it to be the shooter, rarely the gun) but much more rarely do I see folks with genuine function problems from their plastic fantastics. At both IDPA matches I shot, however, someone with a 1911 simply could not get the gun to run. 1911s were vastly outnumbered by M&Ps, Glocks, XDs, and CZs. In two matches, I only saw one person have a problem with something OTHER than a 1911, and that was a new load they hadn't tested before cranking out. Swapped back to her old load and she was back on pace, beating the ever-lovin' dog crap out of the rest of us!

There is nothing like the glass-break trigger of a nice 1911 or the way it makes you feel to hold and shoot a nice one. Unfortunately I feel there is so much variance in manufacturing and tuning of this established design that to simply say "1911s are the best" or "1911s suck more dirt than a Dyson" is quite foolish. When we factor in things like modern materials, increased capacity of newer designs, and newer high pressure calibers I also feel it's akin to sticking one's head in the sand to deny the advantages the modern platforms offer the user in a defensive role.

[leroy]

In the famous words of the long haired bad guy in that cinema classic "Pecos Bill": "...Ya cant stop progress boy...."... Gaston Glock and his sincere copiers moved gun design ahead over the world... John Moses Browning wuz a great (...possibly the greatest...) firearms designer ever...

 

Gaston Glock is the next generation... Pick the one you like and shoot it... I like all of em...

 

leroy

Edited March 29, 2014 by leroy

[gregintenn]

You people who are discounting what Hilton Said and casually dismissing his years of experience to claim he's a "plastic gun apologist" really need to produce your resumes or get better rhetoric.

With all due respect, the article is simply one man's opinion. I've yet to handle, let alone own an unreliable 1911. Further, I fail to understand why a 1911 is so much more difficult to master than any other handgun.

[Will Carry]

Your colt wouldn't stand a chance against any of the ones I have.

 

          It would be a lot of fun finding out. I friend of mine shot my Colt, then traded his Kimber for one. I have never shot one of them high dollar 1911s like a Wilson. I sure would like to. My eyes are getting so bad now it gets harder and harder to see the sites.

[DJTC45]

Well your friend did the right thing by trading his Kimber for a Colt.If you ever get down my way shoot me a PM and we can meet at one of the indoor ranges and I'll bring the ammo and the 1911's I own and you can shoot any of them you want to. I apologize if I said anything out of the way but I've owned just about everything from Glocks to H&K's and sold everyone of them because I just prefer the 1911 platform, it works for me but might not work for others.

[timcalhoun]

I'm not discounting what Hilton said.

I personally would not recommend 1911's for police service now of days, especially for younger cops.

Most of them are not "gun guys" and the ones I know spend very little time shooting. They might shoot twice

a year for qualification. And lets face it most younger people I've known over the last 20 years couldn't fix a flat

tire on a bicycle much less understand the workings of a 1911 and how to properly maintain it. They are better suited

to the glock, designed for the lowest common denominator Austrian conscript who might fire 24 rounds a year for

familiarzation. The Glock solved 2 problems for US Police Departments, training and cost issues. The M&P's are

pretty much like Glocks and the same reasoning applies. 

 

Yep. If I were asked to suggest a handgun for a department or agency, I would not suggest the 1911 for two reasons. 1. As said here, too many officers only touch their guns during qualification and a thumb safety would probably get them killed. 2. I simply do not trust most factory built 1911 to be in spec nor do I trust department armorers to know nearly enough to address things. And I've fixed more than my share of issues when the particular gun has been back to the factory several times. So, I don't even trust the manufacturer often.

 

I feel the majority of 1911s come out fine, but too often I'm working on guns where I'm wondering how this gun ever left the factory. You can't blame the platform for someone building them wrong. This is where glock and S&W have an advantage. While there are tons of companies building 1911's, glock and S&W are the only ones building their guns. Plus those guns were designed with modern manufacturing in mind. The 1911 requires skilled hands, and most factories seem to trust their CNC to compensate for the lack of man hours.

Edited March 29, 2014 by timcalhoun

[Guest TresOsos]

Yep. If I were asked to suggest a handgun for a department or agency, I would not suggest the 1911 for two reasons. 1. As said here, too many officers only touch their guns during qualification and a thumb safety would probably get them killed. 2. I simply do not trust most factory built 1911 to be in spec nor do I trust department armorers to know nearly enough to address things. And I've fixed more than my share of issues when the particular gun has been back to the factory several times. So, I don't even trust the manufacturer often.

 

I feel the majority of 1911s come out fine, but too often I'm working on guns where I'm wondering how this gun ever left the factory. You can't blame the platform for someone building them wrong. This is where glock and S&W have an advantage. While there are tons of companies building 1911's, glock and S&W are the only ones building their guns. Plus those guns were designed with modern manufacturing in mind. The 1911 requires skilled hands, and most factories seem to trust their CNC to compensate for the lack of man hours.

 

Another thing a 73% failure rate on a department issuing Kimbers should reflect on the manufacturer and the quality of their product, not the design of the 1911.

I would not buy or carry a Kimber under any circumstance, I don't care how many people who have them and say they run.

Edited March 29, 2014 by TresOsos

[Will Carry]

Well your friend did the right thing by trading his Kimber for a Colt.If you ever get down my way shoot me a PM and we can meet at one of the indoor ranges and I'll bring the ammo and the 1911's I own and you can shoot any of them you want to. I apologize if I said anything out of the way but I've owned just about everything from Glocks to H&K's and sold everyone of them because I just prefer the 1911 platform, it works for me but might not work for others.

 

You didn't say anything offensive brother.  A man should be proud of his fine weaponry.

[hipower]

Good points on both sides of this situation. And neither side is wrong as far as I'm concerned.

 

I got into the 1911 platform later in my shooting and gun mania, always seemed to prefer the revolvers or DA pistols. But once I started with my first one, it became a bit of an attraction all its own.

 

I really enjoy shooting the 1911, but don't personally use it for carry or primary defensive pistol. Nothing against it all, I just think that it requires a lot more experience with before I change over.

 

JMO

[RichardR]

The advancement of technology doesn't preclude the older technology that had worked well (in the role that it filled), from suddenly no longer working in that role.

It simply means that advancements have been made, double stack magazines are really the largest most important advancement IMHO, material construction (steel vs aluminum vs poly) is a lesser issue, even as nice as a lighter duty weapon is, so long as the weapon preforms as expected when it is needed.

Granted I like 1911's, but I also transitioned to Glocks a long time ago for many as the same reasons as the feller who wrote the article opined about.

Revolvers are still just as good as they ever was, but the advancement of weapon technology has essentially made them obsolete for general issue purposes.

That's just my .02

[dunndw]

If  I were outfitting a .gov agency I'd choose Sigs or HKs as primary sidearms. If I were outfitting a small group of people who were going to be very proficient with their sidearms, I'd look at higher end 1911s.

 

The 1911 is not a gun for non guy people. Equipping a police dept with 1911s is like giving them classic cars for patrol cars. There WILL be problems, a ton of them due to lack of maintenance.

 

I have complete faith in the Nighthawk 1911 riding on my hip today. I carry it pretty much every day, and I run the occasional IDPA match with it.

[mikegideon]

In the famous words of the long haired bad guy in that cinema classic "Pecos Bill": "...Ya cant stop progress boy...."... Gaston Glock and his sincere copiers moved gun design ahead over the world... John Moses Browning wuz a great (...possibly the greatest...) firearms designer ever...

 

Gaston Glock is the next generation... Pick the one you like and shoot it... I like all of em...

 

leroy

 

I'm pretty sure John Moses would approve of the Glock. If JMB would have lived another 20 years, do you think that design would have remained static?