Fed Judge Bans Evil HP Ammo

[gun sane]

The liberals finally went there.....the nitwit 9th Circus Court judge ruled that the Second Amendment doesn't apply to ammunition and
San Francisco can ban the sale of hollow point ammo.

 

 

The Second Amendment protects ‘arms,’ ‘weapons,’ and ‘firearms.’ It does not explicitly protect ammunition.....while the requirement [banning HP ammunition] may burden the core of the Second Amendment right of self-defense, it was a reasonable fit to achieve [San Francisco’s] goal of reducing the lethality of ammunition.

 

Sure SF wants to stop crime, but you've got to give the thugs a sporting chance.

 

http://www.guns.com/2014/03/26/federal-court-upholds-san-frans-tough-ammo-ban-gun-laws/

[TrickyNicky]

Tards.

[RichardR]

The continual, purposeful, intentional misinterpretation of the United States Constitution by ideologs is sort of their whole game plan, because then it makes their violating it "legal" ...

When ever they are able, they keep chipping away at it bit by bit, in this district & in that district until finally it suits their ideological agenda.

The Constitution was not written in some sort of secret code, to which only judges can decifer, it was written in plain english that almost every American can read & understand.

The question really is, how far will the American People allow this purposeful perversion of our nation's highest laws by our nation's highest officials to go?

See the problem is a substantial portion of the American People are in favor of this perversion, another substantial portion just doesn't care, and those who are offended by the corruption & perversion of our laws are labled "extremists" for believing in our nation's entire reason for existing in the first place.

I wonder what would Thomas Jefferson & George Washinton say about the 9th Circuit's decision, I'm guessing that they'd be super-pissed off.

[QuietDan]

When the government starts passing ignorant laws, then The People start ignoring them.

[sigmtnman]

start?  lol

[gun sane]

See the problem is a substantial portion of the American People are in favor of this perversion, another substantial portion just doesn't care, and those who are offended by the corruption & perversion of our laws are labled "extremists" for believing in our nation's entire reason for existing in the first place.

 

 

The scary part is that one judge can restrict a freedom that Americans have relied upon for hundreds of years.  How can the constitutional process which requires an accountable system of checks and balances give so much judicial weight to a single appointed judge? 

[jtmaze]

That is just it. It didn't. A city council voted on it and a judge ruled on it. This will I am sure go higher. I doubt it will stop there. JTM We the People of the United States, in order to form a more Perfect Union......

[leroy]

I think the deal here is that local government (...no matter how stupid...) has some leeway in "regulating some sorts of ammunition".... They cant ban it all...

 

The supremes have ruled that banning and restricting all ammunition is tantamount to banning arms... The bottom line is that if it is a legitimately passed ordinance or law by duly elected officials (...or bozos...), the local jurisdiction can do this sort of thing... The thing to remember is that it is local....

 

leroy

[RichardR]

I think the deal here is that local government (...no matter how stupid...) has some leeway in "regulating some sorts of ammunition".... They cant ban it all...

The supremes have ruled that banning and restricting all ammunition is tantamount to banning arms... The bottom line is that if it is a legitimately passed ordinance or law by duly elected officials (...or bozos...), the local jurisdiction can do this sort of thing... The thing to remember is that it is local....

leroy

For now it is local.

I am curious if their ban on hollow point ammunition also include the local police departments? Or is this yet another "one set of laws for us, another set of laws for you"?

[c.a.willard]

Let me preface this by stating that i think this is a stupid law.

 

However, with that said, the law does not prohibit the possession of defensive ammunition. What it does is regulate what businesses in that city can sale.  Residents of the city are still able to purchase defensive ammunition outside of the city and bring it in.  People passing through can still possess the ammunition.  

 

also, according to one of the articles i read, the city is going to have to create and maintain a list of all prohibited ammunition.  Good luck with that.  I bet Z max gets left off :)

[A.J. Holst]

So, knowing that FMJ is less effective than HP as a SD round, does this mean we will see more rounds expended per occurrance?

 

Did they remember to write in exemptions for active duty LEOs?

[Ted S.]

Judges sure do seem to hate freedom these days. Sent from somewhere in the cosmos using magic...and bacon.

[chances R]

Not only less effective, but more dangerous to the public in general.  More likely to 'shoot through'.  So, in a round-about-way, a ruling favorable for the law-breaking scumbags, and a more dangerous environment for the law-abiding citizens.  The whole freaking world is upside down.

[c.a.willard]

Honestly, penetration causing additional danger is almost a non issue.  We seem to spend a lot of time asking what happens when that round travels through someone without ever asking what happens when you miss.  And if anyone thinks they will never miss in an adrenalin fueled encounter you are likely mistaken.  

 

And again this ruling does not prevent anyone from owning or using HP rounds.  It prevents the selling of them within the city.  Realistically this ban is likely to only significantly impact one store.  It happens to be the only gun store left in San Francisco. 

[RichardR]

Honestly, penetration causing additional danger is almost a non issue. We seem to spend a lot of time asking what happens when that round travels through someone without ever asking what happens when you miss. And if anyone thinks they will never miss in an adrenalin fueled encounter you are likely mistaken.

And again this ruling does not prevent anyone from owning or using HP rounds. It prevents the selling of them within the city. Realistically this ban is likely to only significantly impact one store. It happens to be the only gun store left in San Francisco.

Agreed, at least for now.

This ruling does however set a legal precident which could be followed by other locations & in other rulings, meaning that it has the potential to spread like a cancer.

Much like many of the other ideological-leftist asshattery which comes out of California & the 9th Circus.

[Oh Shoot]

....

This ruling does however set a legal precident which could be followed by other locations & in other rulings, meaning that it has the potential to spread like a cancer.

 

Doesn't need this as precedent: NJ has had much more stringent hollow point ban in place for many years.

 

- OS

[RichardR]

Doesn't need this as precedent: NJ has had much more stringent hollow point ban in place for many years.

- OS

Interesting OS, so maybe it was a NJ based case that was the one who set the precedent that the 9th Circus followed ... I am assuming that the NJ ban was challanged in & affirmed in a court right? Would you happen to know if it was decided at the State or Federal level?

[Oh Shoot]

Interesting OS, so maybe it was a NJ based case that was the one who set the precedent that the 9th Circus followed ... I am assuming that the NJ ban was challanged in & affirmed in a court right? Would you happen to know if it was decided at the State or Federal level?

 

I don't know of any federal appeals or even if it were ever challenged legally within the state.

 

Only thing I note with quick looksee is that there was a state suit regarding transporting them between old and new residence, which was upheld as illegal. (you can own them, but can only transport them between range and home -- can't carry them even if you have a gun carry permit, which of course hardly anyone does there).

 

- OS

Edited March 28, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[chances R]

Honestly, penetration causing additional danger is almost a non issue.  We seem to spend a lot of time asking what happens when that round travels through someone without ever asking what happens when you miss.  And if anyone thinks they will never miss in an adrenalin fueled encounter you are likely mistaken.  

 

And again this ruling does not prevent anyone from owning or using HP rounds.  It prevents the selling of them within the city.  Realistically this ban is likely to only significantly impact one store.  It happens to be the only gun store left in San Francisco. 

I have to strongly disagree about ignoring the penetration issue.  Several studies in NY and elsewhere were used to move toward HP ammo.  In fact, some experts in court have brought up the issue of negligence if one ignores this issue.  Just recently saw a 45 FMJ shatter a bone, exit, and went who knows where.  But not saying HP wouldn't, but I bet it slows down more, and weighs less on exit.  In this case, good for the good guy as he was the one shot.  Missing with any round will not help your legal standing,......over penetration is another issue and always a consideration in weapon and ammo choices.

[c.a.willard]

I have to strongly disagree about ignoring the penetration issue.  Several studies in NY and elsewhere were used to move toward HP ammo.  In fact, some experts in court have brought up the issue of negligence if one ignores this issue.  Just recently saw a 45 FMJ shatter a bone, exit, and went who knows where.  But not saying HP wouldn't, but I bet it slows down more, and weighs less on exit.  In this case, good for the good guy as he was the one shot.  Missing with any round will not help your legal standing,......over penetration is another issue and always a consideration in weapon and ammo choices.

The key to what i said is over penetration causing "additional danger."  Missing in a SD shooting are a frequent occurrence. The risks to bystanders comes primarily from those misses not over penetration.  The most recent survey i am aware of has hit rates for self defense shootings at a little over 50 percent (still well above the LE average).  The numbers of rounds fired in self defense shootings are all over the place, any where from one to well over 15 per instance.  Half of those rounds are missing the intended target.  In comparison i'm not that concerned about over penetration as a risk to bystanders.  

 

Interesting anecdote-There is one famous encounter in which a man fired over a hundred rounds against multiple burglars.  

 

Now if you want to include effectiveness in stopping the fight, then it is an entirely different conversation.  I simply stated that over penetration does not increase the danger 

Edited March 29, 2014 by c.a.willard