Mid-Tenn October Meet & Shoot -- Sunday, Oct 19th, 2008.

[Oh Shoot]

Sooo... whats the difference? Both of them are fired into the air and come back down... I don't think John Doe is going to care if the momentum from the bullet is from the charge or from gravity when it kills him.

Well the point is, that at Owl Hollow, a shot pretty much straight up in the air ain't gonna kill anybody when it comes down, as opposed to a shot of say 10 degrees over the horizon, which certainly could.

- OS

[Guest bkelm18]

Well the point is, that at Owl Hollow, a shot pretty much straight up in the air ain't gonna kill anybody when it comes down, as opposed to a shot of say 10 degrees over the horizon, which certainly could.

- OS

I've never been to Owl Hollow so I don't know how high the berm is but I wouldn't think it's that much higher than 10 degrees over the horizon. I agree that this depends on many many variable, but simple saying a shot fired into the air can't kill someone when it comes back down is too much of a blanket statement.

[Oh Shoot]

Since I'm reading what you have written on the Internet, can I likewise discard it as being erroneous? Dismissing information because of how it was found is a pretty silly way to argue a point.

Forget that then. Just read the article.

There is no proof offered that mass and gravity of bullets alone can kill anyone.

Shooting "into the air" is different from "shooting into the air with sufficient angle that all propulsion from original charge is dissipated before descent".

The former can be lethal, the latter, almost certainly not.

- OS

[TGO David]

Well the point is, that at Owl Hollow, a shot pretty much straight up in the air ain't gonna kill anybody when it comes down, as opposed to a shot of say 10 degrees over the horizon, which certainly could.

- OS

Can you guarantee that a rifle being held with the muzzle straight into the sky will be held at precisely a 90 degree angle to flat ground and that the trajectory will not deviate into the "10 degrees above the horizon" realm that you threw out?

I can't.

I can, however, guarantee that the muzzle will remain pointed at the ground within a safe arc immediately in front of me if I carry it in such a manner. The margin for disaster is significantly reduced.

Are you debating that or are you just debating that an aerial shot carries much risk for those on the ground?

[Guest RISC777]

well i still had a good time. george told me not to leave my pistol in my holster after i was done shooting it and that we couldn't smoke near the line because we could set off the powder 15 to 20 yards away.

Mine was holstered, Hot and Cold range. Maybe that's partly why he always was staring at me every time I saw him. Or because I smoked on the line (the butts did go into the handy trash can though). Since he jumped me within the first ten minutes of being there he felt he's already put me in my place or something. Even my 16 year old was shaking his head at the guy.

[Oh Shoot]

I've never been to Owl Hollow so I don't know how high the berm is but I wouldn't think it's that much higher than 10 degrees over the horizon. I agree that this depends on many many variable, but simple saying a shot fired into the air can't kill someone when it comes back down is too much of a blanket statement.

All these stories imply that the weight and gravity of a bullet falling are lethal.

They are not. To kill, a bullet must still be under the influence of the original powder charge to the extent of penetration of the person's body.

That's all I'm saying.

In one case, you are killed because the bullet is still moving fast enough to penetrate you (by the original impetus of gunpowder). In the other case, the bullet is moving only with its own mass and gravity, and will not penetrate you.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Can you guarantee that a rifle being held with the muzzle straight into the sky will be held at precisely a 90 degree angle to flat ground and that the trajectory will not deviate into the "10 degrees above the horizon" realm that you threw out?

I can't.

I can, however, guarantee that the muzzle will remain pointed at the ground within a safe arc immediately in front of me if I carry it in such a manner. The margin for disaster is significantly reduced.

Are you debating that or are you just debating that an aerial shot carries much risk for those on the ground?

Oh, it's MUCH preferable for any errant shot to go directly into the ground.

Always. Any caliber. Any time.

Forgive me if you thought I was debating the OH safety "policy" vs. yours, as I was not.

I was only reacting to the urban legendry of 70 people dying from "shots falling from the sky" in one day in Iraq. Those shots were not "bullets returning to the ground after celebratory gunfire" as per the OP, as in "falling from the sky", they were still under load from from the original gunpowder blasts of all the locals shooting every which way, including too shallow arcs "into the air".

- OS

Edited October 21, 2008 by OhShoot
clarification

[Daniel]

lol. i was just telling you what i was told a couple of days after while in country. hell maybe it was AAA fire no one told me calibers of the bullets. they just said "remember all that gunfire the other night?"

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/01/america/LA-GEN-Brazil-New-Years-Shootings.php

A 29-year-old man died of a gunshot wound in the stomach, and a 63-year-old woman shot in the back and a 24-year-old man shot in the head were hospitalized in critical condition, the official Agencia Brasil news service reported.

Three other victims had injuries that were not life-threatening.

Police said the shots apparently came from revelers firing into the air in celebration.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Daniel

[Guest Verbal Kint]

lol. i was just telling you what i was told a couple of days after while in country.

Well there you have it... it must be true!

[TGO David]

Copy that. At one point I was one of those "muzzle in the air" guys too but along the way someone showed me a better way so I've been using it ever since.

I'll tell you, one of the worst parts about having a short barrel carbine and being told to sling it over your shoulder is that the sling position and length of the barrel combine to result in either the muzzle being pointed at the base of your own neck or at anyone / everyone behind and to the sides of you. REALLY not a smart idea.

I of course refused to comply with such an asinine command and attempted to explain the fallacy of the command to the RO in a very calm, very genuine manner. Suffice it to say that it didn't go very well from that point forward.

I would have rather been ejected from the range myself than be forced to transport my rifle in a manner unsafe to others present.

Somehow we just left it as a mutual disagreement and nothing else came of that, but the tone for the rest of the day was set.

[TGO David]

lol. i was just telling you what i was told a couple of days after while in country. hell maybe it was AAA fire no one told me calibers of the bullets. they just said "remember all that gunfire the other night?"

RPGs, man. RPGs. All the rave these days for celebratory fire. But they leave a heck of a mess when they come back down.

[Guest Loki]

I loved how I was told several times I couldn't smoke behind the line because there was black powder all around.

But they didn't seem to mind the muzzle flash from the AKM and Saiga right next to their boxes of powder. And I noticed more than once, one of the muzzleloader guys smoking on the line, next to guys loading their rifles. They didn't get a warning from Range Cop.

Guess since I was a TGO guy, I couldn't be trusted to smoke. I would be the one to flick a burning butt into the powder box on purpose.

[Guest themark712]

I of course refused to comply with such an asinine command and attempted to explain the fallacy of the command to the RO in a very calm, very genuine manner. Suffice it to say that it didn't go very well from that point forward.

I would have rather been ejected from the range myself than be forced to transport my rifle in a manner unsafe to others present.

Somehow we just left it as a mutual disagreement and nothing else came of that, but the tone for the rest of the day was set.

That seems to tell me that he knew perfectly well that you were 100% correct and he was just out to be an a$$hole. I mean, if he really, truely felt that you were being unsafe, why would he not ask you to leave? Probably because he knew he had no cause to and he knew he would have been wrong to do so. What an idiot.

[TGO David]

Mark, the reason he gave me was "perception". He stated that it looked as though I was carrying my firearm, ready to shoot someone. Those were his exact words. When I challenged him on the lack of safety in carrying the rifle muzzle-skyward, he said it boiled down to perception. When I asked who's perception we were talking about, he stated that it was "mine" (his).

I wish I was making this up but sadly it's the complete truth.

[Oh Shoot]

Apparently Myth Busters did a segment on shooting into the air a while back. They found that bullets typically return to earth at about 90% of their muzzle velocity....

Think you might wanna restudy what you think you heard re that.

Muzzle velocity on bullets are in the ballpark ranges of 1000 - 4000 fps which equates to apprx 680 to 2700 MPH.

Falling objects vary a little according to air resistance at various altitudes, but somewhere around 200 mph is pretty much max within last couple miles of earth's atmosphere.

If bullets fell by gravity at 900 - 3600 feet per second, the military would not need powder in the shells nor guns to fire them from planes and helicopters. They could just drop them!

- OS

Edited October 21, 2008 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

...I agree that this depends on many many variable, but simple saying a shot fired into the air can't kill someone when it comes back down is too much of a blanket statement.

Okay, let's put it this way: a shot that has no more forward impetus, only vertical motion by falling, can't kill anyone. How's that?

Point is, sure you can "shoot in the air", and kill somebody on a balcony, a rooftop, whatever. You can also kill someone as your bullet arcs downward within lethal range of your firearm, whatever that may be. Bullet is still moving forward.

But a bullet falling down by gravity alone ain't "shooting" anybody.

Now, I don't know an exact formula to predict at what angle a given bullet will "run out of steam" and fall down. I'm sure it depends on many factors, bullet weight, relative powder load, etc, but postulating straight up as 0° and straight out (level ground/horizon) as 45°, I'd guesstimate that somewhere at around 20° angle most bullets become "safe" by the time they hit the ground -- i.e., they have run out of lethal forward motion and are now only controlled by gravity and air resistance.

Assuming you don't hit something first, like a helicopter, cell tower, hot air balloon, etc

I've thought about your expanded hollow points that you found around the zoo. I don't know enough to declare, but seems like those babies must have been going a lot faster than the 200 mph or so that they would have been doing if they fell only by gravity. I'd suspect lower shots that still hit something there with forward motion. Maybe there are just that many shoot outs there around Park City, and that many missed shots. Scary.

- OS

[Fallguy]

I think what the Myth Busters found out was..

If a bullet is fired 100% straight up (90 degrees) and all of its energy is expeneded...and it free falls to earth it can not kill you.

But...they also said that it would be unlikely that a shot would be 100% straight up...and if it is fired at an angle, it could still have enough velocity to be fatal.

They also referred to the many media reports of people being killed from bullets "fired into the air".

[Daniel]

yeah this was what i found out looking for the answer and i did see the mythbusters in question

Wow, what a guy! My mistake about the Navy Seal thing. Maybe that was Adam joking about it.

Viol8r, they determined a bullet shot straight up will fall back down the same as if you dropped it from a high place. It may hurt like hell, but it falls tumbling sideways so it will not exceed terminal velocity.

However, a bullet shot in a high arc will maintain it's ballistic stability and can definitely kill you. There have been several cases of people killed by bullets on the 4th of July, fired in the air at a high angle by celebrators miles away.

they went out into the desert.

we do the arc type firing to hit targets with the m240b and m249 in an indirect manner much like a mortar.

[Oh Shoot]

Methinks that the "high arc" is much lower arc than one would assume.

And the mortar analogy isn't all that pertinent, the weight of a mortar shell falling by gravity alone COULD kill you.

Not to mention the explosion.

- OS

[BimmerFreak]

yeah this was what i found out looking for the answer and i did see the mythbusters in question

they went out into the desert.

we do the arc type firing to hit targets with the m240b and m249 in an indirect manner much like a mortar.

The correct term for this is Plunging Fire.

[Daniel]

^___-

[strickj]

I loved how I was told several times I couldn't smoke behind the line because there was black powder all around.

Maybe they just didn't want to smell it.

As both a smoker,and a non-smoker I can tell you that stuff really stinks to nonsmokers.

[TGO David]

Think you might wanna restudy what you think you heard re that.

Muzzle velocity on bullets are in the ballpark ranges of 1000 - 4000 fps which equates to apprx 680 to 2700 MPH.

Falling objects vary a little according to air resistance at various altitudes, but somewhere around 200 mph is pretty much max within last couple miles of earth's atmosphere.

If bullets fell by gravity at 900 - 3600 feet per second, the military would not need powder in the shells nor guns to fire them from planes and helicopters. They could just drop them!

- OS

Sorry, I mistyped. What I meant to say is that they lose about 90% of their muzzle velocity when fired straight up and return straight down, according to the Myth Busters report. Again, that's assuming a 90* trajectory for both launch and return.

[TripleDigitRide]

So, can a penny dropped from the top of the Sears Tower actually kill someone or drill a whole in the pavement?

[strickj]

So, can a penny dropped from the top of the Sears Tower actually kill someone or drill a whole in the pavement?

Only if you tape it to a sledgehammer first