Defensive shotgun- Do you have one? What do you load it with?

[TMF]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/robert-farago/self-defense-tip-make-the-first-shot-count/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/self_defense_pistol.htm

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=129449

I am glad your uncle is okay.

 

Well that is good for all them.  I've actually been in gunfights before where I was close enough to spit on the bad guy.  I'll continue to carry as I carry, because I know that I won't know for sure what situations I'll face, so I'll try to remain as flexible as I reasonably can while still addressing the most likely scenario.

[MiddTennTaco]

Well that is good for all them. I've actually been in gunfights before where I was close enough to spit on the bad guy. I'll continue to carry as I carry, because I know that I won't know for sure what situations I'll face, so I'll try to remain as flexible as I reasonably can while still addressing the most likely scenario.

I'm not sure why you used your uncle as an example when you are such a wealth of information and experience. I never argued distance with you.

I was giving you statistical data of hit percentages like you asked for. I am also arguing the point that an FMJ is a bigger liability than it is of any tactical advantage. Much similar to Buckshot vs slugs. Carry what you like.

[TMF]

I'm not sure why you used your uncle as an example when you are such a wealth of information and experience. I never argued distance with you.

I was giving you statistical data of hit percentages like you asked for. I am also arguing the point that an FMJ is a bigger liability than it is of any tactical advantage. Much similar to Buckshot vs slugs. Carry what you like.

 

Because his was defensive.  Point I was making is that I don't know what scenario I'll find myself in.  I like to make sure that I'm diversified enough to handle most situations without denying the most likely threat.  Doesn't hurt anything to toss a slug in there a few rounds down.  If I'm cycling through several rounds out of a shotgun in and SD scenario, then things have already gotten into that sooper dooper unlikely situation that only one in a million might get into.  Plus, I have the ability to quickly shuck a couple rounds out if I need to use a slug.  Probably won't need that in a house SD situation, but like I said, how do I know that it will shake out like that?

[MiddTennTaco]

Because his was defensive. Point I was making is that I don't know what scenario I'll find myself in. I like to make sure that I'm diversified enough to handle most situations without denying the most likely threat. Doesn't hurt anything to toss a slug in there a few rounds down. If I'm cycling through several rounds out of a shotgun in and SD scenario, then things have already gotten into that sooper dooper unlikely situation that only one in a million might get into. Plus, I have the ability to quickly shuck a couple rounds out if I need to use a slug. Probably won't need that in a house SD situation, but like I said, how do I know that it will shake out like that?

I'm just playin man. We simply disagree and that's okay.

Edited March 18, 2014 by w0lfattack

[MiddTennTaco]

6.8 AR, on 18 Mar 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:
Sir, buckshot makes a significantly larger hole in those short distances = more trauma and more bleeding. All a slug is going to give you is penetration. If you need a slug in your home to defeat barriers you got to ask yourself why you have a half inch steel table that he's hiding behind or why you would risk putting your ear to the floor and start guess-shooting through walls, lol. I don't care if the intruder is wearing military style ceramic plate armor or holding a bullet proof riot shield - I would still prefer buckshot.

I am ALL about having some slugs but not in the tube. Think it through.

I'm still thinking it through and I think you missed my statement. I wasn't arguing one way or another which is better. All I was saying is
that there is probably little difference in the pattern spread. In other words you would have to aim about the same if you are using either,
from my experience at the range looking at results. I would more than likely rather use 00 buck inside the house, anyway, but my hand
is closer to the Glock, so it may be moot in my case, okay?

You said that slugs will do the same as as buck shot in those short distances. Apparently you meant accuracy? You are correct. I was disputing the idea that slugs and buckshot did the "same thing."

[MiddTennTaco]

I'd be willing to bet that 00 buck and a slug are going to do just
about the same inside a room, unless you live in a castle. Every
time I've shot slugs and buckshot at real close range, say 20-40
feet, spread is neglible on the buckshot. Essentially one hole.
That's using a light modified choke on the SLP and improved
cylinder on either Ithacas.

 

 

We're close enough. :D But I never said they did the same, just pattern spread. In a 10-12ft distance, which is what you'll find in

most houses when you discover your assailant, the point is whichever is in the chamber won't be enough to matter, including

pistols. Nothing scientific there, though. The room sizes in my house is much larger than most modern houses and they still boil

down to being in a very close proximity. Buck shot is what I would most likely be using, unless I just forgot to change loads after

playing at the range.

 

It only makes sense what you say about buck vs slug because buck is more like a frangible piece of lead and a slug would only

mushroom. No disagreement, here.

 

That is what I was referring to. Simple miscommunication I presume.

 

Now, from what I understand, slugs will almost always pass through a human and not transfer anywhere near as much energy as buckshot.

 

 

 

What I saw in the ER. A man was shot with a slug through a car door. It penetrated left to right at about nipple line. It shattered his left arm, and destroyed both lungs, his heart and stopped on the right side. He was DOA.

 

Buckshot is much more likely to stop in the body and cause a sudden dump of energy resulting in debilitating massive trauma. Besides instant organ destruction, the trauma will be the main contributor to stopping the threat and this is completely separate from the fact that the larger hole created will cause more bleeding. 

 

And for those still considering birdshot...

 

 

 

My platoon had a few shotguns during the battle of Fallujah (winter '04-05). We mostly used them to bust open doors but on a few occasions we used them during some tough house to house fighting. There won't be much left of your foe after they've been hit with a slug or 00. 

After a week my battalion ran out of all 12ga except for birdshot. Why the military has bird shot I don't know. Well, one day we were clearing a neighborhood house to house and one of my Marines came around the corner and was face to face with a bad guy. The Marine was faster and shot the bad guy in the face, with the bird shot, the guy fell down then got up and ran back around the corner where my machine gun team caught him with our M240G.

 

After some research it turns out our marines at some point in time were using birdshot as door breaching rounds.  :rofl:

[bersaguy]

I have ben shooting a shotgun of some form or fashion most of my life and I have used about every size shot available at one time or another. every time i bought another shotgun new or used I would pattern the gun with every shot load from # 8 shot to 00 Buck. Both high brass and low brass. I would shoot at 25 feet , 15 feet and 10 feet and then at 25 yards. Of all the ammo I found to be the most effective in 2 3/4 inch version was # 4 high brass duck hunting loads. For some reason it didn't matter what type of gun with a barrel of 25 inches or more it was the most consistent pattern available. Then as I increased to the 3 inch magnums I found that at the same ranges the BB high brass was the most dependable at holding a true proven pattern. I used that for my duck hunting and goose hunting until they outlawed lead and went to bismuth and that was about the time I had to quit hunting because of my shoulders. Now with that said. If I am able to find a shotgun in semi auto or double barrel chambered in 2 3/4 I could afford I will have high brass number 4 shot in the gun and maybe a few 00 buck shot as back up in stock sleeve.................jmho

[dcloudy777]

If you are going to settle for the shotgun for defensive purposes (the autoloading rifle is a better choice by a fair margin, but that's for another thread), at least use ammunition that is sufficient for the task.  No shot smaller than #1 buckshot, or slugs. 

 

Learn how your chosen load patterns out of the gun at 3, 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. Learn the POI for your chosen slug (with your chosen choke tube, if applicable) at 7, 25, 50, and 100 yards. 

 

Practice reloading.  A lot.  The shotgun is always low on ammo... if you aren't actively engaging targets, you should be shoving shells in. 

[JWKilgore]

I love my single shot .410!  Seriously, old Sears & Roebuck .410 bolt action, not very valuable but worth a fortune to me as it was from a very close family member.

Cool... I thought I was the only one with one of these left over from my childhood. My 8-yr-old used it to shoot at skeet a few times last fall, but the extremely tight choke was too much of a handicap. My brother's shorter barrel cylinder-bore break-action .410 was much more suited to the skill level. 

 

 

The standard go-to shotgun caliber for the military is 00 Buck, but they need the longer range and penetration of the larger shot. Recent studies say that #1 is the better choice for closer ranges, and lots of LE agencies are switching. As for me, based on the data from these tests, the fact that I live in a subdivision with relatively close neighbors, and I have kids in the house 50% of the time who may or may not be in their bed in the middle of the night, I can't imagine putting anything with as much penetrating potential as 00 Buck into an in-home self-defense shotgun. Slugs aren't even the remotest consideration. My go-to is #2 Lead Bird shot or lead-free BB shot in a 12-ga for all but the last shell, which is #4 buck. The wife's 20-ga gets #4 Federal "Personal Defense" buckshot because if she is armed it means she's either at home alone or is backing me up.

 

If I ever change situations such that I don't have to worry about wall penetration I'll switch to #1 buck for in-home defense. 

[TMF]

[quote name="w0lfattack" post="1126457" timestamp="1395166459"] After some research it turns out our marines at some point in time were using birdshot as door breaching rounds. :rofl:[/quote] We used to use bird shot for breaching training on wood facades. Never used it in Iraq because 95% of the doors and door frames were made of sheet metal and angle iron. Bird shot would be purdy dangerous in regards to getting hit with ricochet from those tiny pellets going into metal. But we did use bird shot for dove hunting there. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gl19gobang]

Remington 2 3/4" 00 buck

[enfield]

A Combat Engineer I know breached doors in Iraq with explosives, not a shotgun.  A shotgun would have been safer for the occupants, but ineffective for the Marines.

[TMF]

A Combat Engineer I know breached doors in Iraq with explosives, not a shotgun.  A shotgun would have been safer for the occupants, but ineffective for the Marines.

 

After encounter the first house bourne IED we blew the doors on everything.  Watching a 2 story concrete structure collapse and kill nearly a dozen guys will make you take precautions. 

[molonlabetn]

Benelli M4, six 000 3" Remington Buckshot in the tube, one ghost-loaded on the carrier, one in the chamber, and six more on the side-saddle.

[daddyo]

00 buckshot, chambered and running full capacity in the tube. Five extras in a saddle riding on the stock.

[that_guy]

Right now. my only shotgun is a Remington 870 with a 26" hunting barrel. I have a  cases of slugs, 3" 00 buckshot, and #9 birdshot. As of right now it does not have a defensive role, but when I get a new 18" "tactical" barrel and bayonet lug, THAT will be my go-to shotgun. I pan to keep it loaded with a slug in the chamber and the rest 00 Buck, except for the last one. The last shell will be a wax flechette slug. If they don't go down by then, I guess I'm not in for the best of days...

Edited April 6, 2014 by that_guy

[Randall53]

I have one in 20 ga for the wife since that is her gauge of choice and what she is used to (skeet). Research tells me that 000 buck in 20 ga had best penetration and the best load for home defense. So, that's how we are set up.

[musicman]

Mossy 500 7+1... all 2 3/4" 00 buck. Cheap stuff. Honestly, I simply can't imagine that letting me down in any situation where I might actually have a chance.

To be honest though, the couple times I've heard what I thought might be a terrible "bump in the night" I have always grabbed the full size M&P 40 (now an M&P 40 Pro) in my nightstand to investigate. If I am wearing something with pockets, a spare mag goes with me. I have a lot of tight corners, and I don't believe the "rack a shotgun and they'll pee their pants and run away" hooey the Bubba brigade always spouts off. They've already chosen to break into an occupied home... they have proven they are incapable of rational decision making.

I know my house. I know where the creaky hardwood boards are, and which two steps to skip on my staircase. I know where the streetlight shines through the windows. I prefer to be as silent as possible and make as small of a visual impact as a 315lb man in his underwear (or not) at 3am can make. My already-chambered pistol does that better than any of my shotguns or rifles. My last IDPA style zombie shoot showed me that I've got rapid fire triple taps down pretty well. I'm cool wit dat.