Defensive shotgun- Do you have one? What do you load it with?

[CQB Elite]

[quote name="Monkeyman2500" post="1124406" timestamp="1394772269"]I feel so left out. I dont have a shotgun. :([/quote] Everyone needs at least 1 shotgun, even if it's a single shot .410!

[TNMTBik3r]

Everyone needs at least 1 shotgun, even if it's a single shot .410!

 

I love my single shot .410!  Seriously, old Sears & Roebuck .410 bolt action, not very valuable but worth a fortune to me as it was from a very close family member.

[RobertNashville]

I love my single shot .410!  Seriously, old Sears & Roebuck .410 bolt action, not very valuable but worth a fortune to me as it was from a very close family member.

The first shotgun I hunted with was a 410...I wish I still had it but it's long gone. The first shotgun my dad bought for me was a single shot 12 ga that was a breach load (much like my sheet gun today).  I don't have it either unfortunately.

[Chucktshoes]

[quote name="Monkeyman2500" post="1124406" timestamp="1394772269"]I feel so left out. I dont have a shotgun. :([/quote] I got rid of mine. It only collected dust. I use my AR as my primary home defense weapon.

[CQB Elite]

[quote name="Chucktshoes" post="1124720" timestamp="1394838570"]I got rid of mine. It only collected dust. I use my AR as my primary home defense weapon.[/quote] Does Classic Arms have any 870 Tactical in stock?

[CQB Elite]

[quote name="RobertNashville" post="1124510" timestamp="1394809183"]The first shotgun I hunted with was a 410...I wish I still had it but it's long gone. The first shotgun my dad bought for me was a single shot 12 ga that was a breach load (much like my sheet gun today). I don't have it either unfortunately.[/quote] My first gun ever was a bolt action .410. I dispatched a to of squirrels with that bad boy. Wish I still had it but it went "missing" from my mother-in-laws house. My Grandfather had a turkey roasting pan that he would throw his loose pocket change in. One weekend he rolled the change and had enough to buy me a 20 ga Remington 1100. I shot a lot of quail & dove with it.

[xjsnake]

Shotgun isn't a primary option for me as the only one I have is a 28" barrel, but it's got Winchester 00 Buck in it

[z0mbies fear me]

I don't keep my shotgun loaded. However my wife keeps her 12ga. loaded with Hornady TAP 00 buck.

[RobertNashville]

To me, a good shotgun is just something anyone who is serious about owning firearms should have...it's kind of like having at least "something" in a .22LR like a 10/22. 

 

Whether it's a double barrel, over/under, pump, auto loader, in 10, 12, 16, or 20 ga doesn't matter -- you just ought to have one. :)

 

A lot of people mistakenly think it was the lever action rifle (1873 Winchester) that won the west or perhaps the Colt Peacemaker or but in actuality; it was the good 'old shotgun that most of the folks had and it's hard to get any more "American" than that!

 

I currently have three shotguns in my possession; the 12 ga pump I mentioned above (a Bnelli Super Nova Tactical); a Browning Cetori XS Pro Comp (over/under 12 ga) and, my unicorn; a 1965 Browning Sweet 16 that is almost as perfect as the day it left Belgium. My Benelli, while a terrific SD shotgun is not my primary SD weapon; I use a SCAR light for those duties but my Benelli is my back-up SD weapon depending on exactly where I am when I need one! My Over/under is my skeet gun and the Sweet 16...well...I'm just happy to have it.

 

The Sweet 16 was my unicorn because when my dad, uncle and I would go hunting my dad would take his beautiful Browning Auto Five (12 ga) and I was absolutely fascinated with that beautiful piece of firearm and mechanical art. Much to my dismay, he sold that gun to my uncle and it's now in the possession of my cousin (at least it's still in the family!). For many years I searched for an Auto Five but never found one in the condition I wanted. Then, about 10 years ago I had a chance to do some skeet shooting with a friend's Sweet 16 and I was hooked and was finally lucky enough (thanks to a great member here) to pick up the Sweet 16 his dad had owned but had barely shot.  So...now I have my "Auto Five", not exactly like the one dad had but close enough...not the most valuable firearm I own but easily the most valuable to me.

Sorry to ramble on...I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Edited March 15, 2014 by RobertNashville

[Guest ryates217]

12 ga. 3 1/2 inch magnum 00 buckshot

[ls3_kid]

00 Buck in the side by side. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[enfield]

There's always someone who recommends birdshot for home defense.  It's OK if you're invaded by birds.  If birdshot penetrated well, I wouldn’t have had to pick shot out of the pheasants I ate.  Anything bigger than birds requires buckshot.

[nightrunner]

12 ga. 3 1/2 inch magnum 00 buckshot

Thats what Im talking about.

What brand do you use?

[eRay]

I personally like Number 4 Buckshot better than 00. That being said, at inside the home ranges, I do not think it will make much difference what shot size was used if you get hit with a 12 Gauge.

[Guest ryates217]

[quote name="nightrunner" post="1125017" timestamp="1394908576"]Thats what Im talking about. What brand do you use?[/quote] Remington. I found them on sale a few years ago @ Outpost Armory. I keep them around for home defense because they are not fun just to go shoot. A few shells and you're felling it the next day.

[bersaguy]

I feel so left out. I dont have a shotgun. :(

 

I feel so left out. I dont have a shotgun. :(

I do to but I have been looking for one. I just need to find a semi auto because rotators cuffs in my shoulders won't allow me to operate a pump action any longer. I need that or a double barrel I can afford. Either one would be fine.

[Mark@Sea]

Bersaguy

This, a two inch section of picatinny rail (magpul - from Amazon), an O-light and remote switch for same (also Amazon) and bobs' yer uncle.

[CQB Elite]

[quote name="bersaguy" post="1125170" timestamp="1394931890"]I do to but I have been looking for one. I just need to find a semi auto because rotators cuffs in my shoulders won't allow me to operate a pump action any longer. I need that or a double barrel I can afford. Either one would be fine.[/quote] After years of shooting a pump during range quals, I've decided I'd rather have a semi-auto. The ones I've shot don't beat me up as much as an 870. I had a Benelli semi-auto turkey gun. That thing was soft shooting even with 3 1/2" turkey loads.

[MiddTennTaco]

Remington 870 12GA, 7+1 of 2 3/4" 00 Buckshot.

There is NO use for slugs inside of my home. If I go outside for some strange reason I'm sure I would use slugs. I'm not sure what ~~~defensive~~~ deadly force situation would lead me outside with my shotgun but I would much rather use an AR-15 for 20yds +. A shotgun is a much better defensive hunker-down-in-the-house weapon. Slugs have great application but be realistic with your particular usage. Don't pretend you are rambo and think you are going to lead a 1-mile long vigilante-like chase. In 99.99% of home defense situations you shouldn't be pursuing a fight outdoors and it probably wouldn't be wise to utilize a shotgun with slugs to do so.

With real and proper training, 00 reigns as the close quarters show-stopper. (Trauma, bleeding, and vitals destruction). End of story.

[TMF]

Remington 870 12GA, 7+1 of 2 3/4" 00 Buckshot.

There is NO use for slugs inside of my home. If I go outside for some strange reason I'm sure I would use slugs. I'm not sure what ~~~defensive~~~ deadly force situation would lead me outside with my shotgun but I would much rather use an AR-15 for 20yds +. A shotgun is a much better defensive hunker-down-in-the-house weapon. Slugs have great application but be realistic with your particular usage. Don't pretend you are rambo and think you are going to lead a 1-mile long vigilante-like chase. In 99.99% of home defense situations you shouldn't be pursuing a fight outdoors and it probably wouldn't be wise to utilize a shotgun with slugs to do so.

With real and proper training, 00 reigns as the close quarters show-stopper. (Trauma, bleeding, and vitals destruction). End of story.

 

Makes sense, but I figure that if I have to fire more than a couple 00 buck rounds through my 12 GA and I'm still shooting, perhaps it wouldn't hurt to follow up with a slug.  If I ever find myself in a situation where I'm taking out the shotgun, I'm certain I don't know what that situation is going to look like. 

 

We can say that we wouldn't get into a shootout in our front yard because of defense or whatever, but that's exactly where my uncle put rounds into a bad guy during his SD shoot.  A shotty allows for us to have a wide variety of ammo options.  I like having that diversity ready to go.  Then again, I do the same in my SD pistol.  First few rounds are hollowpoints, then a few rounds of FMJ.  Purpose being, if it can't be solved with three rounds of hollowpoint, I probably need more penetration.  I don't know what situation I'll be in if I have to defend myself.  I like knowing I've diversified my ammo to be prepared for most unknowns.

[Stegall Law Firm]

I keep slugs on the side not necessarily for human threats (though it works of course) but for animals.  I could see a situation where a feral dog comes onto my property and having to shoot at more than 25 yards.  I always think of the scene in To Kill a Mockingbird where the sheriff hands Atticus a rifle and he drops the dog with rabies at the end of the street with one shot.

 

More and more though I've been thinking of selling my shotgun and all the ammo and getting another AR.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The shotgun is one of the most misunderstood and misused weapons out there. Lets look at  a few issues.....

 

1. Hitting moving things. The shotgun , due to its expanding pattern of shot, is easier to hit with than a single projectile. As such they are typically easier to score hits with against a moving opponent than a rifle or pistol. 

 

2. Low Light engagements. Again due to the spreading pattern it is easier to hit with in low light.

 

3. Making people stop what they are doing. The typical service handgun round will deliver around 400 ft lbs of energy whether it is 9mm, 40sw, or 45acp. The 12ga 00 load will run more like 1500 ft lbs AND punch MULTIPLE holes in the target with each press of the trigger. People just do not tend to keep fighting much after taking torso hits with buckshot. Now yes I know, we can dig long enough and find a failure to stop with a shotgun...but they are FAR fewer and farther between than failures to stop with a pistol. 

 

These are things that would recommend the shotgun. Now lets look at some things that do not....

 

1. Heavier recoil. That energy you are delivering to the target comes at the price of more recoil being directed to your shoulder. Many people just do not like shooting shotguns and even fear the recoil.While proper technique will mitigate the recoil to some degree it will still always kick more than a .223. A gas operated semi auto (as opposed to inertia operated semi auto )  will kick less than a pump but it still kicks harder than a semi auto .223 , 7.62x39 or .308. 

 

2. Manual of arms is different than anything else. Unless you are an avid shotgun sport shooter the odds are you have never spent a lot of time loading , unloading, handling and clearing stoppages in a shotgun. They do NOT work anything like your AR or AK or pistol. They load differently , unload differently and the typical malfunctions in a shotgun are not the same as with a semi auto rifle or pistol. 

 

3. Longer than a rifle or pistol. A readily available to civilians 18" barrel pump (or semi auto) shotgun is as long as an M16A2 or M16A4. And nobody likes using a full length M16A2 or M16A4 for CQB unless it is all they have.  Your collapsible stock M4 with 16" barrel will be shorter and easier to handle in close quarters than an 18" shotgun. In fact a 16" rifle is as short as a 14" shotgun (which would require NFA registration). So if your mission is to search or clear a structure then a shotgun has some liabilities that shorter guns do not. 

 

Use of slugs.....

 

What are you actually using them for? To extend the range past where buckshot is effective? How far are you REALLY going to need to shoot in your house? The OP was talking about for home defense, not for patrol work. So if you are going to use it IN THE HOUSE then why are we even considering slugs. Now if you live in Alaska and big bears are a real concern then slug loaded shotguns make more sense due to the energy and penetration they deliver....but people are not bears and at the distances that most people would actually be shooting inside a house a buckshot load will only be about the size of a 5-6" plate and still be delivering more than enough power down range to get people's attention.

 

Use of birdshot....

 

At 3 yards or less birdshot will PROBABLY be fine ....maybe....The issue is penetration. Birdshot will leave a really nasty but largely superficial wound anywhere past 5 yards especailly if the target is wearing heavy clothing or leather. Not everyone stops from pain. Some people due to drugs, alcohol , or just being tough people do not stop immediately when they experience pain. In those cases we want something that will RELIABLY (over a wide range of circumstances) penetrate deeply enough to perforate vital organs. Birdshot does not do that past 5 yards. The pellets just do not have the mass to penetrate deeply enough to reliably do that. At less than 3 yards where it has not yet begun to spread and is still essentially a "single projectile" it is MORE likely to penetrate deeply enough, but currently there is no birdshot load that meets the FBI or IWBA test protocols for penetration.

 

 

 

Where shotguns rule....

 

Shotguns are probably at their best in civilian context as a "defending the stronghold" type weapon. If you can "bunker up " in a safe room or bedroom or bathroom or whatever and force them to come to you through a channeled area (like a doorway or hallway ) and you ideally being behind hard cover, then the shotgun loaded with buckshot is THE weapon to have. 

 

If anyone is interested I will conducting our 1 day Defensive Shotgun class in Knoxville April 26. Info can be found here.....http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/140426-defensive-shotgun-knoxville-tn.aspx#.UyhUvPldUat

 

and on Sunday we'll be doing Defensive Pistol Marksmanship http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/140427-defensive-pistol-marksmanship-knoxville-tn.aspx#.UyhVAvldUat

 

TGO thread about the classes is here.....http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/75954-knoxville-shotgun-pistol-april-26-27/

[MiddTennTaco]

Makes sense, but I figure that if I have to fire more than a couple 00 buck rounds through my 12 GA and I'm still shooting, perhaps it wouldn't hurt to follow up with a slug. If I ever find myself in a situation where I'm taking out the shotgun, I'm certain I don't know what that situation is going to look like.

We can say that we wouldn't get into a shootout in our front yard because of defense or whatever, but that's exactly where my uncle put rounds into a bad guy during his SD shoot. A shotty allows for us to have a wide variety of ammo options. I like having that diversity ready to go. Then again, I do the same in my SD pistol. First few rounds are hollowpoints, then a few rounds of FMJ. Purpose being, if it can't be solved with three rounds of hollowpoint, I probably need more penetration. I don't know what situation I'll be in if I have to defend myself. I like knowing I've diversified my ammo to be prepared for most unknowns.

Buddy I was right there with you until the second half of your second paragraph. Three hollow points? I never thought about it before but I could MAYBE understand the LAST few rounds of a magazine loaded with FMJ. Chances are your first three shots are going to miss and if your hollow points can't defeat whatever your shooting at (body armor?) then FMJ's are REALLY not going to help you anyway.

I keep slugs on the side not necessarily for human threats (though it works of course) but for animals. I could see a situation where a feral dog comes onto my property and having to shoot at more than 25 yards. I always think of the scene in To Kill a Mockingbird where the sheriff hands Atticus a rifle and he drops the dog with rabies at the end of the street with one shot.

More and more though I've been thinking of selling my shotgun and all the ammo and getting another AR.

Yes, if I'm going to have slugs they will be in that side saddle in the odd chance I might need them.

I'd be willing to bet that 00 buck and a slug are going to do just
about the same inside a room, unless you live in a castle. Every
time I've shot slugs and buckshot at real close range, say 20-40
feet, spread is neglible on the buckshot. Essentially one hole.
That's using a light modified choke on the SLP and improved
cylinder on either Ithacas.

Sir, buckshot makes a significantly larger hole in those short distances = more trauma and more bleeding. All a slug is going to give you is penetration. If you need a slug in your home to defeat barriers you got to ask yourself why you have a half inch steel table that he's hiding behind or why you would risk putting your ear to the floor and start guess-shooting through walls, lol. I don't care if the intruder is wearing military style ceramic plate armor or holding a bullet proof riot shield - I would still prefer buckshot.

I am ALL about having some slugs but not in the tube. Think it through.

[TMF]

Buddy I was right there with you until the second half of your second paragraph. Three hollow points? I never thought about it before but I could MAYBE understand the LAST few rounds of a magazine loaded with FMJ. Chances are your first three shots are going to miss and if your hollow points can't defeat whatever your shooting at (body armor?) then FMJ's are REALLY not going to help you anyway.
 

 

My first three shots are gonna miss?  Okay, could you please tell me where you get that data from.  Let me go back to the SD shoot I was referencing my previous post.  My uncle fired exactly three rounds from his Taurus 92 series knockoff; all rounds struck the bad guy in areas vital enough to stop the attack.  I'm not sure where you go from my alternating of ammo to an assailant in body armor, but that's not where I was going with that.  The idea was that if there was an issue of penetration the FMJs would solve it, or at least not hurt the situation.  FMJs will still hurt people.

[MiddTennTaco]

My first three shots are gonna miss? Okay, could you please tell me where you get that data from. Let me go back to the SD shoot I was referencing my previous post. My uncle fired exactly three rounds from his Taurus 92 series knockoff; all rounds struck the bad guy in areas vital enough to stop the attack. I'm not sure where you go from my alternating of ammo to an assailant in body armor, but that's not where I was going with that. The idea was that if there was an issue of penetration the FMJs would solve it, or at least not hurt the situation. FMJs will still hurt people.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/robert-farago/self-defense-tip-make-the-first-shot-count/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/self_defense_pistol.htm

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=129449

I am glad your uncle is okay.