Malaysian Plane Missing After Take Off

[Guest TankerHC]

Yeah, I know. It just seems hard to believe when there are third world countries that have that capability installed into a crappy Cessna bush plane. Perhaps why I only fly domestic carriers when I fly internationally regardless of cost. I realize their operated by people who have zero standards for safety. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Im guessing you have never flown Tower Air from a military runway?  :D

[Guest TankerHC]

Me after one too many cups of coffee....

 

 

 

If I saw a Pilot with that face while coming off the Jetway, I think I might have to just turn around and walk back into the terminal. 

[TerryW]

Tanker, it's the bus or us!

[TMF]

[quote name="TankerHC" post="1122722" timestamp="1394470318"]Im guessing you have never flown Tower Air from a military runway? :D[/quote] I can tell you that every military aircraft has this capability, along with every new armored vehicle overseas and most other militate vehicles. The stuff they have costs far more than the cheap commercial stuff available to airliners. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TMF]

[quote name="peejman" post="1122711" timestamp="1394469302"]Newer planes like the 777 also have a systems where the airplane sends satellite transmission of general data about the airplane (condition of the engines, etc.) I'm told that this system wasn't working and they don't know whether it was intentionally disabled or not yet. If satellite tracking and such were the norm, it wouldn't have taken 5 days to find the initial wreckage and another 2 years to find the black boxes from Air France 447. That one went down 20 minutes after it left radar coverage. [/quote] Well, then there are some serious issues with these airlines. There are 4-seater bush aircraft that have this technology and it costs nothing. There is no reason it couldn't be on an airplane that costs tens of millions of dollars. If they are using satcom to communicate there is no reason they couldn't use a device that regularly takes a GPS sample and transmits it. It uses less data to send coordinates with a date time stamp than it would to say "hello" over satcom, so this is why I don't believe it is possible that very smart people responsible for billions of dollars of aircraft and the lives of their passengers haven't figured this out. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tnguy]

I think the conclusion was that there were a lot of aircraft and this kind of incident is extremely rare. Of course, there are several other safety features about which the same could be said but there you go.

[TerryW]

Well, then there are some serious issues with these airlines. There are 4-seater bush aircraft that have this technology and it costs nothing. There is no reason it couldn't be on an airplane that costs tens of millions of dollars. If they are using satcom to communicate there is no reason they couldn't use a device that regularly takes a GPS sample and transmits it. It uses less data to send coordinates with a date time stamp than it would to say "hello" over satcom, so this is why I don't believe it is possible that very smart people responsible for billions of dollars of aircraft and the lives of their passengers haven't figured this out. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

 

There is nothing free, everything has a price.  Buying putting the technology in the 600+ airliners my company owns costs downtime or it has a weight that costs me in payload/gas to carry it around every day.  My company is going to iPads for our flight manuals.  We will pull the 10 manuals out of the airplane and those weigh about 50 pounds but carrying 50 pounds around on 600 airplanes on 4500 hundred flights a day will save my company millions in gas annually.

[NashvilleStage]

Remembering back a bit, the book that was written about Air Canada Flight 143 (the Gimli Glider) mentioned that one of the many profound strokes of luck they had was that they happened to be in an area where the primary radar had not yet been decommissioned. Otherwise, the flight would have disappeared entirely from ATC when the aircraft lost all power & the transponder stopped working.

 

Granted, this was in 1983, when the Boeing 767 was brand-new.

[TMF]

[quote name="TerryW" post="1122743" timestamp="1394472533"]There is nothing free, everything has a price. Buying putting the technology in the 600+ airliners my company owns costs downtime or it has a weight that costs me in payload/gas to carry it around every day. My company is going to iPads for our flight manuals. We will pull the 10 manuals out of the airplane and those weigh about 50 pounds but carrying 50 pounds around on 600 airplanes on 4500 hundred flights a day will save my company millions in gas annually.[/quote] A device that would give you the exact location of all their aircraft in the entire fleet would weigh less than 2 pounds and cost less than $500 annually. Yes, I agree that this is a rare enough event that it wouldn't seem like such a concern, but when it happens it is catastrophic, and for an airline to argue about industry standards when this is something that remote backpackers normally hump is just silly. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TMF]

And let me ask, how does a transponder work then? As I understand, that is something that could be turned on/off by the pilot but has been changed to make it automatic after what happened on 9/11. Is the transponder not a global device which communicates position? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[R_Bert]

I saw some news reports where cell phones on the plane were still ringing (as if connected to the cell tower)

 

Which bring the question, if so...I wonder if anyone is doing triangulation?

Edited March 10, 2014 by R_Bert

[tnguy]

And let me ask, how does a transponder work then? As I understand, that is something that could be turned on/off by the pilot but has been changed to make it automatic after what happened on 9/11. Is the transponder not a global device which communicates position? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

A transponder is just a small device that transmits a coded signal. It has very limited range. and its location is determined by the ground equipment.

Edited March 10, 2014 by tnguy

[TMF]

[quote name="tnguy" post="1122762" timestamp="1394474664"]A transponder is just a small device that transmits a coded signal. It has very limited range. and its location is determined by the ground equipment.[/quote] Copy. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tnguy]

And bear in mind, the job of a transponder is (mostly) safety related, being used to manage air traffic in high density areas. In the cases of accidents (or whatever it is) like this one, more than likely, knowing where the plane was last located isn't going to do the dead bodies much good.

[teecro]

And bear in mind, the job of a transponder is (mostly) safety related, being used to manage air traffic in high density areas. In the cases of accidents (or whatever it is) like this one, more than likely, knowing where the plane was last located isn't going to do the dead bodies much good.

 

Can't help but think that what sounds so simple and cheap to us usually is no where near as simple or as cheap as we think it is.....

[Guest Lester Weevils]

In web photos of the control panel of spaceship one, which was very spartan-- There was a garmin little flight device I think made for private pilots, didn't look much more elaborate than an automobile unit. Now that little gadget wouldn't upload the position via satellite, but it was rather amazing to me that navigational instrumentation had got not only mass market and relatively cheap, but also that it was apparently good enough for an experimental high altitude manned rocket.

Read a SciAm article some years ago, said the USA traffic control will segue into a system where the individual planes "network" with each other to determine safe routes and anti collision, rather than so much central control from air towers. That was some years ago, wonder if they are still planning to implement a decentralized networking system?

[tnguy]

Yep. The GPS part is basically a done deal. The tricky part is long-range communications. That's basically a solved problem also but just trickier. You either need enough power to reach a long way, the ability to aim a signal at a moving LEO satellite from a platform travelling at a few hundred mph or aiming at a geosynchronous satellite even further away (again from a moving platform).

 

Edit: Iridium apparently does not utilize any kind of directional signal so I guess something along those lines would be an option.

Edited March 10, 2014 by tnguy

[Oh Shoot]

Watching entire hour devoted to it right now, it's really seeming more and more mysterious.

 

Iranian man bought two of the tickets used by the stolen passport owners? Chinese Martyr Brigade? Wreckage falling on Hong Kong?

 

I'm beginning to think twilight zone, it may have landed at an airport in the past or future!

 

- OS

Edited March 10, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[GlockSpock]

Watching entire hour devoted to it right now, it's really seeming more and more mysterious.
 
I'm beginning to think twilight zone, it may have landed at an airport in the past or future!
 
- OS

The Langoliers

[Wiljo05]

I saw some news reports where cell phones on the plane were still ringing (as if connected to the cell tower)
 
Which bring the question, if so...I wonder if anyone is doing triangulation?

If cell phones were still ringing, they would have to be at or below about 12k. Cell signal is gone by 12k ish ft.

[NashvilleStage]

That's got to be it! The plane crashed because someone didn't turn off their cell phone while in flight.   :panic: :hiding:

[NashvilleStage]

I'm beginning to think twilight zone, it may have landed at an airport in the past or future!

 

Twilight Zone, or maybe an 80's Kris Kristofferson movie...

 

[Guest TankerHC]

I can tell you that every military aircraft has this capability, along with every new armored vehicle overseas and most other militate vehicles. The stuff they have costs far more than the cheap commercial stuff available to airliners. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Oh, I wasnt talking about the gear, was talking about the safety part. Tower Air didnt fly military aircraft. They flew 747's. Let me tell you about a couple of experiences on Tower. 3 747'a packed with troops, gear, weapons, you name it,  on our way to Kuwait City. First we landed in France at Charles De Gaule. Took off, when we get to Kuwait City there were only two aircraft. On the way, and I am not making this up, parts of the interior of the aircraft were falling off. The planes looked so old that Orville probably rode in them. On the way from France one of the other planes engines had caught fire, the pilot turned around and took it back to France, they FIXED it and the next day flew to Kuwait City.

 

Tower Air again, flying from Peterson Air Force base to Schilpol Holland for a REFORGER. Over the Atlantic the pilot says if anyone wants to check out the cockpit, come on up, so a bunch of guy were lined up down the aisle, this plane was also loaded with troops and gear. The plane starts FALLING OUT OF THE AIR. Those photos you see of planes having problems and people all relaxed and snapping photos and whatnot. BS! Thats not what happens on a plane load of Grunts and Tankers. Crap was flying everywhere, people were flying everywhere. People were yelling and hollering. My buddy Chuck Jacoby (passed away now) grabbed my hand and squeezed so hard I thought he was gonna kiss me. When the plane finally leveled out the pilot came on and said everyone needed to stay in their seats with seatbelts on the rest of the flight, they didnt know what caused that but told us the plane had dropped 15,000 feet. Then we get over Germany and the Pilot comes on again, says we need to land because were about out of fuel. Rhein Main wanted to put him in a pattern but he comes on and tells us they might get mad but he has no choice, he is landing the plane. We land and the US Air Force stormed the plane. I dont mean they got on to see what was happening, they STORMED the plane, with weapons, running up and down the aisles, some LTC was screaming and yelling at the pilots, they were screaming and yelling right back. Then on the way back, we passed Greenland and the same pilot on the same aircraft comes on and tells us we have to make an emergency landing. They were losing fuel. But the problem was the nearest airport was Bangor, Maine and he needed 12000 foot of runway and they only had 7000 foot. "But no worries, we will get her down OK". And he did. We get off the plane, and they rush 300+ troops into the tiny Bangor terminal. No food, nothing to drink all day. But the VFW came through, a bunch of those old vets showed up with enough Baloney sandwiches and Cokes to feed 400 people. We watched out the glass front, fuel was pouring out of that plane. The fire trucks came over and cleaned it all up. Then they told us they had to RTV a crack. Everyone was like WTF? Thats what we use on Tank fuel tank cracks, and half the time it doesnt work. But, they did it, we had to wait 6 hours, the FAA inspectors came out, inspected the plane, we loaded up and went on.

 

Thats only TWO of the Tower flights out of many, and there was always something. But I can say, I appreciate the professionalism of those Pilots, because if they didn't know what they were doing I wouldn't be sitting here typing this right now. The only flight I have even been on worse than a Tower Military Charter was in 1981, Flying Tiger Airlines. 

 

But I have never been afraid to fly, simply because of the Professionalism of the Pilots. The only time I decided not to board a flight was on a Flight back from Korea. Getting on the plane in LAX (Stopover) the pilot was a black female and there is absolutely no doubt that she was drunk. Not tired either, her eyes were bloodshot, she was staggering, talking stupid crap and even the 2 flight attendants at the door were staring at her like she was crazy. I walked right back and reported her and took a train to Denver because of that, took me 48 hours to get there.

 

And Ill tell you something else, I personally witnessed (Me and my wife and a lot of other people) a 737 with 20 something people and one deceased person on board crash. I bought a house in Widefield, Colorado outside of Fort Carson in 1990. My wife at the time, of 18 years, was German and had a lot of German friends in the area. When I got back in 91 we went to visit one of her friends and her husband. She had a house that skirted a small park. We were driving over there and this plane comes in so low I told my wife it looked like he was going to crash and she said he was just close to the airport. Which he was. We were about an 1/8th of a mile away and I didnt hear a sound, but over the houses saw smoke and panicked because the smoke was coming right over our friends house. I parked, told the wife to wait here and took off running thinking "oh my god, oh my god oh my god", I didnt know what I was going to see. A lot of other troops were also running up the road. When I got there and a lot of other people, there was nothing anyone was going to do. Within minutes first responders of every type imaginable were on the scene, couldnt do anything except check on the neighbors, I stayed there and the FAA showed up and began putting up small red and blue triangular shaped flags. Tons of them, I asked one of the FAA guys what they were doing and was told the red flags are body parts and the blue flags are aircraft parts, so they could photograph the scene of the crash. There were only two parts left of the aircraft that resembled an aircraft. When I got there I was standing a few feet away from a section of the body that was about 15 feet long and had 6 or 7 windows still in it and the landing gear was half buried on the other end of the park with the wheels sticking up out of the ground. Other than the red flags there was no sign that there was even a human being there. Just small burned parts all over the place. Had not been and have not been that shaken up since. My knees were literally shaking. It was a pretty horrible scene and to make it ten times more horrible my wifes friend said she was in the back yard and that plane had come over once before really low before crashing the second time and she could see the people in the windows and thought they were waving so she waved back to them. I still have dreams about that plane from time to time. The deceased guy on board as I remember had died in a car accident in California and they were bringing his body home. I believe, and still believe to this day, regardless of what the FAA said a few years ago, that we witnessed heroism that day. And it was unfortunate for the passengers, but anyone actually standing there knows that if that pilot would have put that plane down anywhere else, he would have taken out a bunch of people on the ground. I have never seen a photo of him, but that Pilot I believe was Captain Green. 

 

But seeing that crash actually made me LESS afraid of flying. Whatever happened on that plane the other day, if it was instantaneous and catastrophic, the passengers never knew what hit them, it would have been that fast. The way I see it, if we are going down, make peace, because on impact your not going to feel a thing, in the air if the plane comes apart, you aren't going to feel a thing either. 

[TerryW]

A device that would give you the exact location of all their aircraft in the entire fleet would weigh less than 2 pounds and cost less than $500 annually. Yes, I agree that this is a rare enough event that it wouldn't seem like such a concern, but when it happens it is catastrophic, and for an airline to argue about industry standards when this is something that remote backpackers normally hump is just silly. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

 

TMF, I can't argue, you're right and I am on your side.

How an aircraft is equipt isn't always decided based on what is the "latest greatest", it is decided by people that look for .0001 pennies in the cost and what will it return in whole dollars. 

 

 

 

And let me ask, how does a transponder work then? As I understand, that is something that could be turned on/off by the pilot but has been changed to make it automatic after what happened on 9/11. Is the transponder not a global device which communicates position? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

 

  I can't speak for other airlines but my transponder operation hasn't changed one bit since 9/11.  I have friends at just about all the other carriers and don't know if the others procedures have changed but I doubt it.  We turn the transponder on and off based on the phase of flight.  It is used on the ground during taxi because most airports have ground based radar and they track us at all times during taxi, especially during low visibility conditions.  We don't leave the transponder on at the gate as it has a very high output and is more damaging to humans than the aircraft's airborne radar.  It has the several modes one of which is STBY.  The way our transponders work is we have a discreet code assigned to our flight by Air Traffic Control. Their ground based radar sweeps the sky(queries) and our transponder replies with our assigned code and our altitude in order to differentiate us from others.  I am not aware of a transponder that communicates globally ie in non radar environment.  I think what would be used to give position would be a separate radio device.   

Edited March 10, 2014 by TerryW

[Guest TankerHC]

TMF, I can't argue, you're right and I am on your side.
How an aircraft is equipt isn't always decided based on what is the "latest greatest", it is decided by people that look for .0001 pennies in the cost and what will it return in whole dollars.





I can't speak for other airlines but my transponder operation hasn't changed one bit since 9/11. I have friends at just about all the other carriers and don't know if the others procedures have changed but I doubt it. We turn the transponder on and off based on the phase of flight. It is used on the ground during taxi because most airports have ground based radar and they track us at all times during taxi, especially during low visibility conditions. We don't leave the transponder on at the gate as it has a very high output and is more damaging to humans than the aircraft's airborne radar. It has the several modes one of which is STBY. The way our transponders work is we have a discreet code assigned to our flight by Air Traffic Control. Their ground based radar sweeps the sky(queries) and our transponder replies with our assigned code and our altitude in order to differentiate us from others. I am not aware of a transponder that communicates globally ie in non radar environment. I think what would be used to give position would be a separate radio device.

Speaking of this there is something i always wondered about. I once went to get a procedure that I can't remember exactly what it was but required a level of radiation a little higher than normal. I asked about it and the doc said no worries you get 10 times this much on a plane. So are commercial pilots tested for radiation? Do pilots have abnormal rates of cancer among their ranks? How do pilots monitor that or is their no reason to monitor?

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2