Had to bite my tongue on this one....

[TMF]

So the other day I had a co-worker of mine walk by and see me looking at some 9mm ammo online. Then he stated that I should get a .40 because that's the best. He started rambling about this and that..blah... blah. Then he said that it's the best because the local Police use it. He said, " The PD uses .40 because it can shoot through an engine block and stop a car and a 9mm can't do that." And I had to just keep my mouth shut on at that point. Any further conversation would be useless! I don't dislike .40, just thought the whole engine block thing was hilarious!

 

You should have explained to him that you carry those sooper dooper armor piercing 9mm rounds from Lethal Weapon 3.  Then go on to tell him that your buddy's cousin's uncle read a story once about how a guy was hit in the shoulder once with one of those bullets and it tore is whole arm off and that they're banned by the Geneva Conventions.

 

But seriously, I'm assuming that a basic understanding of physics wasn't a prerequisite for your coworker's position?

Edited March 5, 2014 by TMF

[TMF]

I think if you research the 357Sig and why some PD have moved away from 40 to 357Sig, the engine block theory will be debunked.

 

BTW I did lose respect over 9mm based upon this story from Knoxville in 1995, I think this guy took 5 shots of 9mm by TBI agents and lived:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1842&dat=19940709&id=vgMiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7scEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6344,1082795

 

And I saw an 8 year old kid who took an 7.62 x 39 right through the chest and he was able to get up and run to cover and ended up surviving.

 

I also know of a dude down in Florida who fired a single shot into an assailant with his 9mm Keltec which resulted in the near-immediate death of the person shot.  There were a couple of threads here about it.

 

I'll agree that bigger diameters normally mean bigger holes, which would translate to more chance to hit vital areas to incapacitate, but shot placement is still key.  I don't care what caliber you get shot with, if it isn't in a vital area it won't matter.  It has nothing to do with the round.  9mm has killed a lot of folks.  There is more to stopping/killing a threat than the diameter of the bullet used.

[K191145]

You should have explained to him that you carry those sooper dooper armor piercing 9mm rounds from Lethal Weapon 3. 

 

Ahh I remember those, those are the 9mm's that can punch holes through a 1" thick hardened steel bull dozier blade.

My guess is that the OP's co-worker watches a little too much TV. Everybody i've talked to about guns that knows little about them, I always tell them to forget everything they have seen on TV and movies, and the news.

[Guest Lowbuster]

I seen a show where prisoners were being interviewed and how their lives were risked for stupid things. One of the prisoners said they all bragged about being shot with a 9, but none bragged about being shot with .357 .40 or .45 because they all died.

[runco]

And I saw an 8 year old kid who took an 7.62 x 39 right through the chest and he was able to get up and run to cover and ended up surviving.

 

I also know of a dude down in Florida who fired a single shot into an assailant with his 9mm Keltec which resulted in the near-immediate death of the person shot.  There were a couple of threads here about it.

 

I'll agree that bigger diameters normally mean bigger holes, which would translate to more chance to hit vital areas to incapacitate, but shot placement is still key.  I don't care what caliber you get shot with, if it isn't in a vital area it won't matter.  It has nothing to do with the round.  9mm has killed a lot of folks.  There is more to stopping/killing a threat than the diameter of the bullet used.

First, I can't argue against bigger holes, and hitting vital areas, even a stick or other object can be impaled into ones vital area, and cause immediate loss of life.  Not going to question what you witnessed, its your witness.  However I did provide a link to my story, in case there were a doubting Thomas out there. 

 

A couple of things you are leaving out for others to read, the law of physics can not be ignored.  Example, Newtons's 2nd Law,  Force = mass x acceleration applies even with little bullets as well.  Do the math of a 22LR 40 gr @ 1,400 fps vs. 9mm 115gr @ 1,200 fps vs. 40S&W 180gr @ 1,000 fps vs. 357Sig 125gr @ 1350 fps, which round has more force upon impact?  Force does matter when the assailant is in full charge towards you in a threatening matter.  2nd, can you logically explain why 20 years ago, most LEO had just switched from 38 or 357 to 9mm, but today a very low percentage have 9mm, with the majority having 40S&W?  I don't think the move was to save tax dollars, but rather on the job experience and expectations!  Finally, using your argument, it doesn't matter what caliber you use, then why doesn't LEO carry Smith 41 or Ruger Mark III 22LR to save the tax payer money?   Finally, why do hunters of big game, I mean really big game, use larger caliber guns?  Is it due to their ego?  I don't think so!  Stopping power and instant death, but it does mean proper shot placement!

 

Not attacking you, just your argument since you jumped on my wagon about "why" I left 9mm!

[TMF]

First, I can't argue against bigger holes, and hitting vital areas, even a stick or other object can be impaled into ones vital area, and cause immediate loss of life.  Not going to question what you witnessed, its your witness.  However I did provide a link to my story, in case there were a doubting Thomas out there. 

 

A couple of things you are leaving out for others to read, the law of physics can not be ignored.  Example, Newtons's 2nd Law,  Force = mass x acceleration applies even with little bullets as well.  Do the math of a 22LR 40 gr @ 1,400 fps vs. 9mm 115gr @ 1,200 fps vs. 40S&W 180gr @ 1,000 fps vs. 357Sig 125gr @ 1350 fps, which round has more force upon impact?  Force does matter when the assailant is in full charge towards you in a threatening matter.  2nd, can you logically explain why 20 years ago, most LEO had just switched from 38 or 357 to 9mm, but today a very low percentage have 9mm, with the majority having 40S&W?  I don't think the move was to save tax dollars, but rather on the job experience and expectations!  Finally, using your argument, it doesn't matter what caliber you use, then why doesn't LEO carry Smith 41 or Ruger Mark III 22LR to save the tax payer money?   Finally, why do hunters of big game, I mean really big game, use larger caliber guns?  Is it due to their ego?  I don't think so!  Stopping power and instant death, but it does mean proper shot placement!

 

Not attacking you, just your argument since you jumped on my wagon about "why" I left 9mm!

 

I don't have an "argument" other than the silliness wrapped around how "ineffective" a particular round is.  It doesn't matter how big a bore you have, shot placement matters.  I understand all the physics behind it... a combination of mass and speed translating into more damage or the target.  It's a pretty simple concept.  I do think it is disingenous to compare 9mm to a pointy stick or a .22 LR to nullify my point of shot placement being a big part of it.  Obviously there is a line you draw where at some point you have taken something too far.... you can go too small or you can go too big.  If "stopping power" were the most important thing than all cops would carry a .500 magnum, right?  That argument is just as rediculous and disingenous as suggesting the use of .22 in regard to shot placement.  Clearly there is a tradeoff, and rather than simply dismissing a round because of anecdotal evidence, such as the story you linked, one could consider that the choice of round is based on a series of factors in order to find balance.

 

I guess what I'm getting at with my examples was that anectodal evidence can be dismissed with anectodal evidence.  You link a story where a guy got shot 5 times with 9mm and lived.  Well Zimmerman shot Trayvon once with a 9mm and dropped dead in seconds.  Arguments should be made in fact, and any argument made in anectodal stories should be immediately dismissed by reasonable folks.

 

  Is a .40 superior in inertia to a 9mm?  Sure.  Does that mean a 9mm isn't effective.  No.  I don't really care either way, I just find these threads rediculous when we start the "well I heard that 9mm never ever killed any one ever and one time at band camp..."  It is the kinda nonsense that perpetuates dumbass coworkers to talk about how .40 can shoot through car engines and makes people like me shake my head.  I have pistols in .32, .380, 9mm, .40 and .45.  I normally carry the .380, 9mm and .45 dependent upon where I'm going or how I'm dressed.  Of course, I carry my .45 with the knowledge that I'll never have to shoot anyone with it, because when I pull it out the bad guy will immediately evacuate his bowels and surrender.

[downtown]

You ready for the kicker in this story.....my co-worker is an ex-police officer!!! That's funny stuff, guess that's why he's an "ex".

On another note guys, let's don't get to bashing each other about which caliber is better than the other. I myself don't dislike .40 or.45 or what ever else, it's just I shoot SO much better with a 9mm. I've had pretty much all the handgun calibers available at some time and settled with the 9mm simply because I shoot better with it. The problem wasn't the gun or the rounds, it was me, as my brother shot them with no problem at all! I will say though, I had a Glock 38 once and that was the best shooting gun I have ever had! I sold it because it was just too hard to find .45GAP rounds.

[glowdotGlock]

My co-worker which happens to also be my neighbor says the dumbest things which make me want to hold my tongue but I usually don't. He owns several old shotguns and rifles and maybe shoots 3 rounds a year. He doesn't own any handguns so I let him shoot one of my Glocks every now and then. Anyway, after handling my G19 he stated that he must get one. He started to tell me that he doesn't want the little ol' "baby" 9mm Glock 19's though. That's fine. Then he goes on to say he wants a gun like Shelby on Ax Men... which I believe is a .44 magnum single action with about a 10"-12" barrel. He went on to tell me about how when you have a gun like that when you pull it out and "click" it everyone just stops in their tracks. He also stated that he wanted bullets that just blow holes in a person and exit out the back.... After explaining to him why all of that is wrong he still sticks to what Hollywood has taught him. So in my mind he thinks he wants to carry a 10" stainless SA .44 magnum in his pants in case he encounters a situation where everyone needs to freeze in their tracks without firing a shot. I used to enjoy a drink or 2 with this fella but the bullsh!t gets too deep for me too handle. Edited March 6, 2014 by glowdotGlock

[Guest Bolt_Overide]

The amount of sheer stupidity that people parrot regarding firearms is staggering. I saw it on the interwebs or heard it in a gun shop or at a gun range so it must be true!

[ls3_kid]

I run into stuff like this at work as well.  One of my co-workers was saying he wanted a Desert Eagle like I just purchased to carry... in .50AE.  I simply stated, "The gun is a little much for me to carry and it weighs too much for an EDC".  My co-worker stated he wanted it just incase somebody was trying to run him over and he could shoot through the front of the car, through the engine block, the firewall and probably out the trunk. 

 

Carry a Desert Eagle blows my mind, unless you shop at bigger and taller.  Really kidding, to carry a Desert Eagle seems pointless in any situation. 

Edited March 5, 2014 by ls3_kid

[tbenedict]

Never had a 40, but I always thought a hollow point would even things out a bit as far as takedown.

[KKing]

Whut r u fellers talkin bout? Fotay calibah is da best! If youins caint carry wif da big dawgs u needs tah stay on da porch. That's what I hear when fanboys talk Edited March 5, 2014 by KKing

[runco]

I don't have an "argument" other than the silliness wrapped around how "ineffective" a particular round is.  It doesn't matter how big a bore you have, shot placement matters.  I understand all the physics behind it... a combination of mass and speed translating into more damage or the target.  It's a pretty simple concept.  I do think it is disingenous to compare 9mm to a pointy stick or a .22 LR to nullify my point of shot placement being a big part of it.  Obviously there is a line you draw where at some point you have taken something too far.... you can go too small or you can go too big.  If "stopping power" were the most important thing than all cops would carry a .500 magnum, right?  That argument is just as rediculous and disingenous as suggesting the use of .22 in regard to shot placement.  Clearly there is a tradeoff, and rather than simply dismissing a round because of anecdotal evidence, such as the story you linked, one could consider that the choice of round is based on a series of factors in order to find balance.

 

I guess what I'm getting at with my examples was that anectodal evidence can be dismissed with anectodal evidence.  You link a story where a guy got shot 5 times with 9mm and lived.  Well Zimmerman shot Trayvon once with a 9mm and dropped dead in seconds.  Arguments should be made in fact, and any argument made in anectodal stories should be immediately dismissed by reasonable folks.

 

  Is a .40 superior in inertia to a 9mm?  Sure.  Does that mean a 9mm isn't effective.  No.  I don't really care either way, I just find these threads rediculous when we start the "well I heard that 9mm never ever killed any one ever and one time at band camp..."  It is the kinda nonsense that perpetuates dumbass coworkers to talk about how .40 can shoot through car engines and makes people like me shake my head.  I have pistols in .32, .380, 9mm, .40 and .45.  I normally carry the .380, 9mm and .45 dependent upon where I'm going or how I'm dressed.  Of course, I carry my .45 with the knowledge that I'll never have to shoot anyone with it, because when I pull it out the bad guy will immediately evacuate his bowels and surrender.

This is fun.  Just so that we are aligned with our terms, define "effective"?  And do you care theorize why many PD have the 40 and not the 9mm, or is that silly? 

[10-Ring]

I run into stuff like this at work as well.  One of my co-workers was saying he wanted a Desert Eagle like I just purchased to carry... in .50AE.  I simply stated, "The gun is a little much for me to carry and it weighs too much for an EDC".  My co-worker stated he wanted it just incase somebody was trying to run him over and he could shoot through the front of the car, through the engine block, the firewall and probably out the trunk. 

 

Carry a Desert Eagle blows my mind, unless you shop at bigger and taller.  Really kidding, to carry a Desert Eagle seems pointless in any situation. 

Can't say that I've never heard of someone carrying a Desert Eagle, however I've never heard of anyone doing it for very long.

[ncldwell]

I don't buy the "caliber must start with a 4" mentality for handguns.  Like many of us TGOers I own all calibers and have my preferences but my Grandfather's preferred gun was a 22 long barrel revolver.  When he was a toddler he pulled a pot of boiling water off of a pot belly stove and crippled his right hand.  He could shoot a rifle right handed but not a handgun.  He grew up perfecting his aim shooting a handgun with his left hand and was one of the best shots I've ever seen.  I asked him more than once why he relied upon that 22 revolver over a larger bullet and he always responded that it ain't the size of the bullet but where you put it that matters.  

[TMF]

This is fun. Just so that we are aligned with our terms, define "effective"? And do you care theorize why many PD have the 40 and not the 9mm, or is that silly?

Entire militaries have 9mm pistols. Most of them in the world do. In fact, there are more 9mm pistols in the US military than there are badged law enforcement in the US. So does that make the caliber more or less legitimate or effective? I would argue that it doesn't mean anything. Just trying, once again, to dismiss anecdotal nonsense with anecdotal nonsense.

Like I keep saying, I don't care about calibers. I carry a few different ones and have no emotional attachment to a bullet diameter. That would be stupid. My issue is folks perpetuating nonsense because "they heard this once" or "read this somewhere".

Isn't there a sticky or something on this?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited March 6, 2014 by TMF

[StPatrick]

Isn't there a sticky or something on this?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I believe David wrote something along the lines of "Why we want expansion, but need penetration" many moons ago.  It was well-written, and he laid his argument out in such a way that by the end of it it would be hard not to agree.

[Rowdy]

Entire militaries have 9mm pistols. Most of them in the world do. In fact, there are more 9mm pistols in the US military than there are badged law enforcement in the US. So does that make the caliber more or less legitimate or effective. I would argue that it doesn't mean anything. Just trying, once again, to dismiss anecdotal nonsense with anecdotal nonsense.
Like I keep saying, I don't care about calibers. I carry a few different ones and have no emotional attachment to a bullet diameter. That would be stupid. My issue is folks perpetrating nonsense because "they heard this once" or "read this somewhere".
Isn't there a sticky or something on this?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yep, here it is. And, after reading it most honest people will have to agree that "any gun will do if you will do".

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/32380-read-this-before-posting-nonsense-about-the-efficiency-of-handgun-calibers/

[TMF]

Yep, here it is. And, after reading it most honest people will have to agree that "any gun will do if you will do".

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/32380-read-this-before-posting-nonsense-about-the-efficiency-of-handgun-calibers/

Purdy much. I know my abilities and limitations more than most shooters. With my Glock I can get two hits in a 3 inch dot at 7m in 2.2 seconds from the holster. I have done better, but this is the standard I've qualified at and can achieve consistently. I can't do the same with my 1911, however I can get a first round hit in about the same amount of time as my Glock (and that is with having to manipulate a safety).

I don't doubt there are plenty of good shooters out there who can do better than that with a .45, but there aren't a high percentage amongst the everyday pistol carrier. Recoil management is a huge thing when it comes to accurately engaging with follow up rounds. I manage recoil pretty well. I've been to the range enough times to know that this isn't a skill (recoil management and quick follow up shots/sight acquisition) that the average shooter has. So no, I wouldn't suggest a person go out and choose their caliber based on gel tests alone. A lot more to it. I certainly don't condone shooters trying to convince novice shooters that 9mm shouldn't be considered over more damaging calibers. That is misinformation and irresponsible to do.

But I still carry my .45 sometimes. You won't hear me say that it is silly to carry a .40 when a .45 is bigger and better. So I don't understand folks who insist that carrying a 9mm instead of a .40 is wrong. Much more goes into it than that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited March 6, 2014 by TMF

[ls3_kid]

Can't say that I've never heard of someone carrying a Desert Eagle, however I've never heard of anyone doing it for very long.

 

I've heard of people carrying one but more as a "show piece" or something along those lines.  Seems dumb.  Plus I don't own a strong enough belt to carry it hahaha.

[Patton]

I think if you research the 357Sig and why some PD have moved away from 40 to 357Sig, the engine block theory will be debunked.

BTW I did lose respect over 9mm based upon this story from Knoxville in 1995, I think this guy took 5 shots of 9mm by TBI agents and lived:

To be fair there are stories out there of people taking hits with 40s, 45s, and just about everything else to vital areas just to walk away. I have seen a homicide with a 22lr and witnessed a guy not even go into shock after shooting himself with a 44mag. THP shot a guy in the face with a 40S&W and he lived , Norfolk Beach PD shot a guy several times including in the face with a 9mm and he lived.