"It's just foreign to me"

[A.J. Holst]

A quote I heard from a radio pastor.

 

The caller was asking about pastors carrying handguns and how it fits into scripture, "live by the sword, die by the sword" This is not to debate theology so let's not go there!

 

To paraphrase and edit to protect the innocent:

 

"I am not against guns, it's just I never grew up around them, my parents emigrated to the United States in 1960 when I was 10. Because they came from a "non-gun" European background, we were never exposed to guns in our home and didn't recreationally shoot guns. That people acquire, shoot and carry guns - it's just foreign to me."

 

Reminds me of another story of when my buddy was out and about and stopped to assist a family who appeared to tourists and lost in Pensacola.

 

Family was indeed on holiday from the UK and as they were going their separate ways, the pre-teen son asked Morgan, "can I see it?"

 

"See what?"

 

"Your gun."

 

"I don't have a gun."

 

The kid was crushed, from watching Hollywood, he really thought most all Americans carried a gat...

 

 

 

 

[Guest PapaB]

I would hope that pastor doesn't have a flock. If he does he's a poor minister to them imho. You can't effectively minister to people you don't understand and chances are he knows people that don't find guns to be so foreign. He needs to spend more time learning from them and less time proclaiming his ignorance. Had he said "That people acquire, shoot and carry guns - I've come to understand it, but it doesn't appeal to me." I'd at least respect his views.

[tnguy]

"I am not against guns, it's just I never grew up around them, my parents emigrated to the United States in 1960 when I was 10. Because they came from a "non-gun" European background, we were never exposed to guns in our home and didn't recreationally shoot guns. That people acquire, shoot and carry guns - it's just foreign to me."

 

I never grew up around guns. But I emigrated to the US when I was 30 and I acquire shoot and carry guns because I possess the power of critical thinking.

 

(I did get to recreationally shoot them a couple of times though. Enjoyed it a bunch though I had to swear an oath that I hadn't taken any empty brass with me when done (some of the people I shot with did anyway))

Edited March 4, 2014 by tnguy

[A.J. Holst]

I would hope that pastor doesn't have a flock. If he does he's a poor minister to them imho. You can't effectively minister to people you don't understand and chances are he knows people that don't find guns to be so foreign. He needs to spend more time learning from them and less time proclaiming his ignorance. Had he said "That people acquire, shoot and carry guns - I've come to understand it, but it doesn't appeal to me." I'd at least respect his views.

Papa, it may be semantics, he may have meant "appeal" TNguy definitely proves an open mind is critical to continously learning

[Caster]

Live by the sword, die by the sword....this is the stupidest argument people can try to leverage against another.
If I carry a gun, I could get shot? If I DON'T carry a gun I could get shot.
Times have changed, this scripture has been misinterpreted and living a peaceful life ain't as easy as it used to be.

[tnguy]

Whatever happened to "Sell your cloak and buy a sword" anyway?

[ttocswob]

"Living by the sword" in the Biblical context refers to the shedding of blood for fun and profit, not to carry for defense.

 

But, just like guns, context is apparently a foreigh concept to the good pastor.

[Jonnin]

 90% of our gun problems are caused by people that did not grow up with them and their only understanding of guns comes from public school and the leftist media combined with constant news of shootings in many places. 

 

This is where the NRA and others have failed us, is to push for mainstream tolerance and safety.  They tried, sort of, but it was still a failure for a number of reasons.  If people understood gun safety and how the machines worked, there would be less fear.  If everyone had shot one a few times, enough to understand them, there would be less fear.   Fear is, almost always, a lack of understanding the unknown.

[Guest PapaB]

Whatever happened to "Sell your cloak and buy a sword" anyway?

 

Evidently his bible is missing some pages, or he doesn't bother to read parts of what Jesus said to his disciples.

[Guest PapaB]

 90% of our gun problems are caused by people that did not grow up with them and their only understanding of guns comes from public school and the leftist media combined with constant news of shootings in many places. 

 

This is where the NRA and others have failed us, is to push for mainstream tolerance and safety.  They tried, sort of, but it was still a failure for a number of reasons.  If people understood gun safety and how the machines worked, there would be less fear.  If everyone had shot one a few times, enough to understand them, there would be less fear.   Fear is, almost always, a lack of understanding the unknown.

 

You can spend hundreds of millions of dollars providing info to those people but you can't make them pay attention to it or accept it. A large number simply doesn't want to know. Unless there is a catastrophic event that causes mankind to return to having to hunt for their own food and protect themselves from physical danger continually, most people won't understand. The sheep don't want to know what the sheepdog does and they don't want to see the violence sometimes required to protect them.

[TMF]

Live by the sword, die by the sword....this is the stupidest argument people can try to leverage against another.
If I carry a gun, I could get shot? If I DON'T carry a gun I could get shot.
Times have changed, this scripture has been misinterpreted and living a peaceful life ain't as easy as it used to be.

I'm pretty sure the world has always been pretty violent and full of evil. We've just reached the point where we demonize those who wish to defend themselves and apologize for those that commit violence against innocents. It used to be people defended their lives and their homes, and those that attacked them would hang from a tree. Now we give them free college.


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[Jonnin]

You can spend hundreds of millions of dollars providing info to those people but you can't make them pay attention to it or accept it. A large number simply doesn't want to know. Unless there is a catastrophic event that causes mankind to return to having to hunt for their own food and protect themselves from physical danger continually, most people won't understand. The sheep don't want to know what the sheepdog does and they don't want to see the violence sometimes required to protect them.

 

Agreed but I am not talking about that level here.  I am talking about every child having been taught the most basic gun safety and having fired at least a bb gun to demonstrate the concepts.  Just as we teach them the proper way to use a rubber and have sex and what drugs are available for fun and recreation.  Just add a 2 day gun safety basics to the "stuff your parents should have taught you" class that all kids are forced to take.   It won't happen, but that is the solution to a GREAT MANY of today's problems.  

[guyandarifle]

Live by the sword, die by the sword....this is the stupidest argument people can try to leverage against another.
If I carry a gun, I could get shot? If I DON'T carry a gun I could get shot.
Times have changed, this scripture has been misinterpreted and living a peaceful life ain't as easy as it used to be.

If you are a bad guy "living by the sword" and you are going to be "dying by the sword" the immediate question is...who is holding the other sword?

 

Answer: someone who is defending themselves from people that "live by the sword".

 

A movie quote from a similar vein; "Those without swords can still die upon them."

[Jonnin]

some strange ways to read that verse all around.   Not saying anyone else is wrong ... just very different from mine.

 

I took "those that live by the sword" to mean like a mercenary -- someone killing for money, without any ties to a cause. 

 

Carrying a weapon in defense of your life against robbers and thugs is nothing like living as a mercenary or professional killler/soldier/pirate or whatever else.    The first will almost never have to fight, the other seeks out fights constantly as a career opportunity.

[Caster]

 
A movie quote from a similar vein; "Those without swords can still die upon them."

That was a conversation between Eowyn and Aragorn from The Two Towers. A VERY moving speech that, despite it being from fictional fantasy work, is a very valid and intelligent rationale in this world.

Eowyn: The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them. I fear neither death nor pain.
Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?
Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

[tnguy]

some strange ways to read that verse all around.   Not saying anyone else is wrong ... just very different from mine.

 

I took "those that live by the sword" to mean like a mercenary -- someone killing for money, without any ties to a cause. 

 

Carrying a weapon in defense of your life against robbers and thugs is nothing like living as a mercenary or professional killler/soldier/pirate or whatever else.    The first will almost never have to fight, the other seeks out fights constantly as a career opportunity.

 

I always figured it was a bit more allegorical and covered anyone who lived a life of violence.

[Fallguy]

Long read....but saw this posted a while back.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

Should Christians Keep and Bear Arms
A Christian Viewpoint
Dr. Marshall C. St. John

The Constitution of the United States of
American contains this sentence:

“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the
security of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

Our Constitution is not part of the Bible, however
it is based on Biblical principles.

For example, the Constitution speaks of the
necessity of a militia for the security of a free
nation. “Militia” does not mean a professional
army. It means the citizens of the nation bearing
arms. It is the teaching of the Bible that citizens
MAY, and often MUST bear arms for the
defense of the nation. For example:

7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they
shall fall before you by the sword.
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and
an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to
flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by
the sword.
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make
you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my
covenant with you.
(Leviticus 26:7-9)

In order for God's people to accomplish the will
of God, it may sometimes be necessary for them
to bear arms and literally fight. King David
wrote in Psalm 18:34-39...

“He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of
steel is broken by mine arms...I have pursued
mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I
turn again till they were consumed. I have
wounded them that they were not able to rise:
they are fallen under my feet. For thou hast
girded me with strength unto the battle...”

LESSONS FROM NEHEMIAH

When Nehemiah was rebuilding the wall around
Jerusalem, it was necessary for him and the
other men to go armed for self-defense.

Nehemiah 4:16-18

“And it came to pass from that time forth, that
the half of my servants wrought in the work,
and the other half of them held both the
spears, the shields, and the bows, and the
habergeons; and the rulers were behind all the
house of Judah. They which builded on the wall,
and they that bare burdens, with those that
laded, every one with one of his hands
wrought in the work, and with the other hand
held a weapon. For the builders, every one
had his sword girded by his side, and so
builded. And he that sounded the trumpet was
by me.”

Many of the heros of the Bible were men at
arms: Joshua, Gideon, Samson, etc.

lessons from God’s Law

The first five books of the Bible are sometimes
called the “Torah,” which means “The Law.” In
these books we find the Ten Commandments,
and many other laws God gave to His people to
order their lives. In Exodus 22:2-3 we read:

“If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten
that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood
shed for him; for he should make full restitution;
if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his
theft.”

In other words, homeowners are allowed by
God’s Law to defend themselves against
burglars who break in at night.

lessons from Jesus

In Luke 22:36 Jesus commanded His disciples
to be armed for self-defense.

“Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a
purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and
he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment,
and buy one.”

Jesus commanded his disciples to buy swords, if
they had none. They said they already had two,
and Jesus said that would be enough. As a band
of a dozen able-bodied men, they were quite
safe from roving bandits, even if every man in
the group was not carrying a weapon. The
application is that Jesus commands us to be
armed for self-defense, but He does not
recommend that we go overboard with our
weapons. Jesus said in another place, “He who
lives by the sword shall die by the sword.”
Jesus encourages his followers to defend
themselves, but He does not encourage us to
be eager for battle and bloodshed.
Self-defense may be necessary as a last resort,
but violence should not be sought after and
relished. God’s people are supposed to be
peacemakers, not ruffians. Neither are we
allowed to spread the Gospel by means of
violence or military aggression.

LESSONS FROM PAUL

“But if any provide not for his own, and specially
for those of his own house, he hath denied the
faith, and is worse than an infidel.”
I Timothy 5:8

We must provide food and shelter for our
families. It is also our duty to provide protection
from criminals. The most effective way to do this
is to move your family to a safe neighborhood.
Also, we should make sure our communities
have effective law enforcement officers. But
what would you do if a criminal broke into your
home? Are you prepared to defend your family?

We pray for God to provide for us; but that does
not excuse us from earning money, buying food
and building houses. We pray for God to defend
us from criminals, but that does not excuse us
from taking steps to protect our families.

Preserving Your Right to
Keep and Bear Arms

The importance of preserving your right to keep
and bear arms is illustrated in I Samuel
13:19-22.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all
the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest
the Hebrews make them swords or spears: But
all the Israelites went down to the Philistines, to
sharpen every man his share, and his coulter,
and his ax, and his mattock. Yet they had a file
for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the
forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the
goads. So it came to pass in the day of battle,
that there was neither sword nor spear found in
the hand of any of the people that were with Saul
and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan
his son was there found.”

The Philistines conquered and dis-armed the
Israelites. They even took away the means of
weapons production, in order to enslave them.
In order to revolt, the few Israelites who had
weapons attacked some Philistines and took
their weapons. This process continued until
many Israelites had arms. In modern times, It
is impossible to overthrow tyrants and have
a free society unless the citizens have
firearms, and know how to use them.

RIGHTS COME FROM GOD

It is vital for every Christian to realize that all
our rights actually come from God. The
government never gives you rights, but only
recognizes rights you already have, or tries
to take your rights away from you, to
increase its power. It is clearly obvious that
as government grows larger, our liberties are
gradually being taken away.

The second Amendment of the Constitution, the
second right enumerated in the Bill of Rights, is
the right to “keep and bear arms.” As we have
seen from the scriptures quoted above, this right
is rooted in the Bible, because the right to
self-defense, and the obligation to protect the
weak, is rooted in the Bible.

An Objection Answered

Someone may ask: “But what about turning the
other cheek and not resisting evil? Aren’t
Christians supposed to act like that? Aren’t we
supposed to be pacifists?”

The answer is simple: In those verses Jesus
was telling Christians how to react to minor
insults: a slap on the cheek, the loss of a coat,
and so on. He was not addressing the
Christian’s response to criminal activity or a
tyrannical government. He did that when He
said, “Do unto others as you would have them do
unto you.” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

If we love our neighbors, we will take steps to
keep them safe from criminals. That may mean
that we will personally need to use weapons to
help our neighbors. It also means that we will
support our local police in the apprehension of
criminals. It also means that we will do whatever
we can to make our government one that honors
individual rights and liberties.

Instead of taking vengeance on criminals
personally, we will call on the police to find and
arrest them, and bring them to justice. But
when criminals attack us or our neighbors, and
the police are not present, we will do what it
takes, not just for our own sake, but for the
Christian love we have for our families and
communities. To dis-arm and to allow criminals
to attack us and our neighbors unopposed is to
be negligent about our Christian duty.

Presbyterians thought this out a long time ago.
In our official doctrinal statement, the
Westminster Larger Catechism, Answer # 135
we read:

“The duties required in the sixth commandment”
include “just defense against violence.”

Self-defense, and that involves keeping and
bearing arms, is not only your privilege as an
American Christian, it is your duty.

Wayside Presbyterian Church
2502 Fairmount Pike
Signal Mountain, TN 37377
www.waysidechurch.org

__________________
Dr. M. St. John
www.waysidechurch.org