I disagree with "loaded magazines doesn't weaken the spring"

[Mike.357]

.
Steel case ammo won’t hurt your rifle.

 

at what point does it hurt the rifle?

[Oh Shoot]

at what point does it hurt the rifle?

 

Bimetal steel bullets vs. brass through AR, epic torture test:

 

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#bookmark1

 

Barrels essentially shot out at 6K rounds with Wolf and Brown Bear.

 

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#erosion

 

- OS

[mikegideon]

Bimetal steel bullets vs. brass through AR, epic torture test:

 

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#bookmark1

 

Barrels essentially shot out at 6K rounds with Wolf and Brown Bear.

 

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#erosion

 

- OS

 

Yep. It's not the steel cases. It's the steel jackets on the bullets.

[Mike.357]

Dang Mac, now I gotta do my own research.

 

I will say from my own personal experience that steel case is harder on a M1 Carbine.  It ran great for near seventy years.  ( an assumption, given).  But In a little over 1000 rounds, half steel the extractor broke.  Dunno if it would have happened anyway due to age,

 

But in well over 2K rounds through the AK it has not mattered.   And I wager that AK will not see 2k rounds through it again.   

 

So the crux is, why worry about it.

 

How may rounds you putting through the Glock that are life and death?  Who cares about spring life?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Mike.357

[TMF]

Since we are on the subject of magazines I know there are a number of folks that served in Nam and other theaters of war both then and even now. Back when I was in Nam we always smacked our loaded magazines against our helmets before reloading into the gun to prime the magazine. How many guys still do that today while at the range regardless of what Semi Auto your shooting. I know your not wearing helmets but I will tap mine on the gun rest plate in front of me to prime the magazine before putting it in the gun. If shooting out doors I will bang it on heal of my boot. It is a habit I got into and I am just curious how many folks still do that today with their magazines? That may answer one of the questions being raise here. Do folks here think magazines that have been loaded for a long period of time may just need to be primed before loading in gun?...........just curious

That is done in order to seat the rear of the cartridge against the rear of the mag housing. It's because when you're carrying your mags in your web gear, it can get knocked around quite a bit and the first round in the mag may shift forward, which will prevent proper seating of the mag when loading, as the front tip of the round is getting caught on the mag well. Not something you want to deal with when you're doing a mag change for real. Has nothing to do with springs though.


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[Oh Shoot]

.....But in well over 2K rounds through the AK it has not mattered.   And I wager that AK will not see 2k rounds through it again.   

 

Well, you know, a shot out AR barrel is about as accurate as what an AK begins with , so it doesn't much matter so much with that platform. ;)

[Mike.357]

that and after 100 yards it is a pot shot anyway with either. LOL

[wileecoyote]

Props to peejman and others for their very insightful and accurate replies. Let me offer some practical advice, coming from someone who has inspected and worked on literally thousands of guns over 30+ years... As peejman explained, a "properly designed" spring will not lose function if it was also properly manufactured and maintained, assuming it was designed for a high-stress, high-quality application over a specified lifetime. The trouble for firearms owners is that every manufacturer uses different criteria for the design, manufacturing, and expected service life of their factory magazines... and even when they "get it right" there are variances introduced by the actual manufacturers of the parts (often subcontracted) and by the owners / operators of the firearm in question. So when it comes to the question of ultimate reliability, such as in personal defense, the firearm owner is well advised to let caution rule the day, and frequently cycle loaded magazines on a rotation basis over time, and replace any suspect magazines as needed. I do this myself by rotating my loaded mags once a month, and replacing my "used" mags every few years or sooner if warranted based on actual usage and inspection results. Bottom line: when your life is on the line, don't rely on the cheap way out or third party advice. Inspect, test, rotate, and replace as needed to ensure optimum results.

[peejman]

I'm just not sure it's as simple as the "quality" of the spring. I'm pretty sure Glock puts a hell of a spring in their magazines, or they wouldn't be as reliable as they are. This still does not explain why even a good quality spring will be easier to compress after only a few days.

 

 

Could be that the spring is supposed to be that way.   Fully compressing the spring causes the metal to yield slightly.  Repeating that a few times causes the metal to work harden and "take a set", so it is different from when it was new.  A thoughtful designer would know that's what's going to happen and compensate for it in other ways.   I had an application in a previous life where this was exactly the case.  The act of installing the spring in it's assembly over stressed the spring and caused it to yield. 

 

 

 

unload it, then load and reload it thirty times.  If an old ass spring is a problem this should show it.

 

Personally I believe dryness of the metal is the issue.  If it had a light coating of oil the whole time it would not be as affected.  I dunno what the truth is but this is my theory.

 

Keeping a little oil on a steel spring is always a good idea simply because it helps prevent corrosion.  It only takes a little corrosion pit to start a crack and kill a spring in short order.  Spray your garage door springs with WD-40 once or twice per year and they'll last longer. 

[Motasyco]

I do this as well; never served and haven't been trained. Not sure where it came from... Hollywood, perhaps?

It helps prevent rim lock where two cartridges lock together when the rim of one becomes locked in the extractor groove of the next.  Two cartridges locked will not load.

[enfield]

As I've been saying for years, follow the manufacturer's recommendation.  They should know about the quality of the spring and the system it functions in.  If the spring will become a problem during normal use, including keeping it compressed for years, they should know that and tell you.  If they don't have a recommendation, then I'd keep the springs compressed and learn for myself.  I'd rather have them fail in the safe than in combat.  Failure is not a bad thing in itself.  It only become a problem when it happens at the wrong time.  Springs are cheap.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Got some factory beretta 92 20 rd mags (mostly for use with cx4 rifle). Brand new they were so stiff that not even king kong could fill em up without a mag loader. After letting em sit loaded up awhile, they loosened to the point that it is NOW POSSIBLE for king kong to fill em up without a mag loader. But still rather stiff. Probably beretta designed it thataway. They seem quite reliable.

But when will they ever come up with a truly reliable, heavy duty slinky? Slinky's are way too easy to tear up. Edited February 28, 2014 by Lester Weevils

[wileecoyote]

[quote name="enfield" post="1117934" timestamp="1393597403"]As I've been saying for years, follow the manufacturer's recommendation. They should know about the quality of the spring and the system it functions in. If the spring will become a problem during normal use, including keeping it compressed for years, they should know that and tell you. If they don't have a recommendation, then I'd keep the springs compressed and learn for myself. I'd rather have them fail in the safe than in combat. Failure is not a bad thing in itself. It only become a problem when it happens at the wrong time. Springs are cheap.[/quote] Good points, however keep in mind that most manufacturers are not going to state an opinion in writing either way, and calling to ask will get you an uninformed operator who doesn't know the engineering details or only guesses. And more than a few manufacturers (especially the cheaper guns or aftermarket mags) will deliberately use lower quality parts to keep costs down, without necessarily admitting it, so buyer beware. When in doubt (or at all times when you may rely on the gun for your life), you should not keep them loaded forever... rather you should unload and rotate them, test and inspect them periodically, otherwise they will very likely fail when you least expect it. As you say, mags and springs are relatively cheap so why chance it?

[BigK]

I'm just not sure it's as simple as the "quality" of the spring. I'm pretty sure Glock puts a hell of a spring in their magazines, or they wouldn't be as reliable as they are. This still does not explain why even a good quality spring will be easier to compress after only a few days.

 

If I were a quality magazine manufacturer, who also wants to make my products affordable, I would know what the optimal tolerance range is for my springs. Let's say that to get acceptible pressure against the follower and still come in under cost, the spring I use has to be 7" or more in length. I would also know that after reasonable use the quality of the spring I use in my magazines may compress by 1". Therefore, I would use springs with an initial length greater than 8" to ensure that after initial settling my spring was still longer than 7". 

[Oh Shoot]

Got some factory beretta 92 20 rd mags (mostly for use with cx4 rifle). Brand new they were so stiff that not even king kong could fill em up without a mag loader. After letting em sit loaded up awhile, they loosened to the point that it is NOW POSSIBLE for king kong to fill em up without a mag loader. But still rather stiff. Probably beretta designed it thataway. They seem quite reliable....

 

I have two 30 rounders, maybe two years now, sit loaded all the time. Seems I'll always need to use UpLula to fill them up completely.

 

- OS

[NashvilleStage]

UpLula. One of those "Why didn't *I* think of that?" items.  :doh:

[Jonnin]

There is enough engineer in my background to say that if the spring is of the proper material and never ruined by over compression or over extension,  it will not be significantly harmed by being stored compressed. 

 

Not every spring is well chosen for the application, and these break or fatigue and wear out long before they should.    This is true in any manufacturing including guns and gun magazines.   There have been a few stellar examples of recoil springs that go bad within 500 rounds or less,  and then there is my makarov which is still going on the orig spring after many thousands of rounds, over 5 and I lost count around there years ago.   I do have a replacement, but have not yet needed it!   The mag springs also still work in that gun, and they have been compressed since '93 or so apart from when it was being shot.  

[Grunt67]

Since we are on the subject of magazines I know there are a number of folks that served in Nam and other theaters of war both then and even now. Back when I was in Nam we always smacked our loaded magazines against our helmets before reloading into the gun to prime the magazine. How many guys still do that today while at the range regardless of what Semi Auto your shooting. I know your not wearing helmets but I will tap mine on the gun rest plate in front of me to prime the magazine before putting it in the gun. If shooting out doors I will bang it on heal of my boot. It is a habit I got into and I am just curious how many folks still do that today with their magazines? That may answer one of the questions being raise here. Do folks here think magazines that have been loaded for a long period of time may just need to be primed before loading in gun?...........just curious

 

LOL, yeah, i still do that. Old habits are hard to break I guess.
 

[timcalhoun]

Uncles WW2 1911 that he brought back from Europe. He kept the mags loaded since the war in his gun cabinet. Every time he shot the gun it ran just fine.  It was in the early 90's the last time he brought it out to shoot some holes in a trash burn barrel. He passed years ago, and my cousin now has the gun, but I suspect that the mags are still loaded and will run just fine.

[A.J. Holst]

30 years and the spring may need replacing? Good excuse, I mean reason to "refurb" with new parts and cool accessories.

[enfield]

I see that science can't compete with anecdotes, so I'll be on my way, again.  :shake:

[Daniel]

Since we are on the subject of magazines I know there are a number of folks that served in Nam and other theaters of war both then and even now. Back when I was in Nam we always smacked our loaded magazines against our helmets before reloading into the gun to prime the magazine. How many guys still do that today while at the range regardless of what Semi Auto your shooting. I know your not wearing helmets but I will tap mine on the gun rest plate in front of me to prime the magazine before putting it in the gun. If shooting out doors I will bang it on heal of my boot. It is a habit I got into and I am just curious how many folks still do that today with their magazines? That may answer one of the questions being raise here. Do folks here think magazines that have been loaded for a long period of time may just need to be primed before loading in gun?...........just curious

I am short on time so I cant finish the thread but I do do this. We were taught to so that any rounds that had shifted forward in the mag would be pushed back into place. I have seen it work. 1st round forward of the edge of the mag opening? Tap it on your helmet and it shifts back into place. I have done so on muscle memory against my hat instead of helmet. I don't recommend that method.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Daniel

[timcalhoun]

I certainly was not saying that you don't need to change springs. I was just sharing something that I thought was pretty amazing. Was not implying anyone should not replace springs.

 

I tell my customers and everyone else when the subject comes up to replace all springs and give them intervals. I personally replace all mag springs once a year right after the New Year. Springs are cheap and it's just good cheap insurance.

[enfield]

:shake: :surrender:

[TMF]

I am short on time so I cant finish the thread but I do do this. We were taught to so that any rounds that had shifted forward in the mag would be pushed back into place. I have seen it work. 1st round forward of the edge of the mag opening? Tap it on your helmet and it shifts back into place. I have done so on muscle memory against my hat instead of helmet. I don't recommend that method.

Most people who have been on a flat range have either experienced or witnessed the guy that goes to slap a mag in his M4 and a couple rounds pop out of the mag and are loose in the upper receiver, causing a double feed or the operator needing to turn his rifle to dump out the loose rounds. A round sitting forward which gets caught on the magwell may pop out and strip out the round behind it, because often in a mag change (not an admin loading) it is done quick and with knuckle dragger force. Tapping the back of the mag will prevent this. I don't do it on my helmet because I never got into the muscle memory of it. I've also never been in a gun fight that lasted more than half a mag.


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