I disagree with "loaded magazines doesn't weaken the spring"

[Erik88]

Ever since I started shooting years back, I've always heard that magazine springs are not weakened simply because you keep them loaded. The explanation has always been that the constant compression and decompression of the springs results in weak springs.

 

I disagree with this logic.

 

I recently reported a separate issue with my winchester defender shotgun. This gun has spent the last 30 years in a closet and I'm positive that it has fewer than 200 shells through it over the years. Probably closer to 100. However, I believe it's spent at least half its life fully loaded with 7 in the tube. During a recent sporting clay outing I started having malfunctions where the shell wouldn't make it to the chamber. To make this short, the magazine had lost strength and upon receiving the replacement part I found the old spring had shrunk to nearly half it's original size.

 

So, if storing them loaded doesn't weaken the spring then how could this be? I know this gun wasn't continuously loaded and unloaded. 

 

Another observation. Any time I get a new pistol(especially Glocks) the magazines are extremely difficult to load the first time. Why is it that the same people that claim loading mags won't weaken them will tell new gun owners "just load the magazine for a few days and the springs will loosen up".  

 

Why is it that after a few days of being stored loaded, my Glock magazines are suddenly easier to load? Why is it that my magazines that have been loaded for years, but shot very little, are easier to load than my magazines stored empty but used often at the range?

 

Everything I have witnessed has been a direct contradiction to this logic that is often repeated time and time again on gun forums.

 

What am I missing?

 

 

[Garufa]

What am I missing?

 

Nothing really.  Until I hear a professional metallurgist or other such qualified engineer address the issue, springs weaken except when fully at rest.

 

That being said, I left a Glock 23 magazine loaded for about 20 years and It still works fine, just like it did in 1992.  It is definitely easier to load but no more easier than a brand new magazine that's been loaded 20 or 30 times.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Garufa

[broox]

Man, I have been wondering this for about a month.  I agree with you, Erik. The common theory of loaded mags don't weaken the spring just seems too good to be true.  Maybe it is not. 

[Garufa]

I will test this soon.  Next time I go to Memphis and root through my Mom's attic I know there is a 20-round Colt M16 magazine fully loaded with blanks somewhere.  Got it when I was a kid and there's no telling how long it was loaded before I got it...at least 35 years.

[Chucktshoes]

I will test this soon.  Next time I go to Memphis and root through my Mom's attic I know there is a 20-round Colt M16 magazine fully loaded with blanks somewhere.  Got it when I was a kid and there's no telling how long it was loaded before I got it...at least 35 years.

You can bring it over my place and we can annoy the neighbors.  :rofl:

[2.ooohhh]

A whole lot of it has to do with the quality of the spring. I have mil spec m16 mags from the 80's that were loaded for 20+ years stored in the attic and still perform flawlessly(ammo too even fired full auto), but have seen pro mags that won't work out of the package yet are fixed by replacing the spring.

[Erik88]

That being said, I left a Glock 23 magazine loaded for about 20 years and It still works fine, just like it did in 1992.  It is definitely easier to load but no more easier than a brand new magazine that's been loaded 20 or 30 times.

 

Interesting. I'm not saying that just because you leave a magazine loaded, it will eventually stop functioning. I think we've seen a lot of evidence to suggest the opposite. There have been numerous stories of soldiers returning from WW2 with loaded 1911 magazines that functioned perfectly after 50 years.

 

But I don't buy the logic that loaded magazines won't weaken the spring.

[Garufa]

But I don't buy the logic that loaded magazines won't weaken the spring.

 

That begs the question:  Does shorter mean weaker?  :lol:  

 

Seriously, I should pull the spring out of that mag and see if it's as long as a new one.  I bet it's not, but is it weaker?

[DaveTN]

What am I missing?

What you are missing is metallurgy. You just discovered that not all springs are created equal. It depends on what the spring is made out of and how it is tempered. You can get bad springs, or bad heat treat.

Any time you see someone making blanket statements about things involving metallurgy, physics or ballistics you should be skeptical. Is a magazine that has been in storage for thirty years good to go? No, but that doesn’t mean it won’t work when you try it.

Here a couple of other blanket statements that I can assure you are false:
Dry firing won’t hurt your gun.
Steel case ammo won’t hurt your rifle.

[Smith]

I had an old NASA engineer tell me about spring compression not weakening springs. He was the kinda of engineer that used a slide rule and knew Von Braun. I take that as pretty good authority. That being said there is a difference in spring quality and every spring will change its density the first few times it is compressed. A quality spring will not change its rate as much as a poor quality spring, but they all will eventually settle. Edited February 28, 2014 by Smith

[bersaguy]

Since we are on the subject of magazines I know there are a number of folks that served in Nam and other theaters of war both then and even now. Back when I was in Nam we always smacked our loaded magazines against our helmets before reloading into the gun to prime the magazine. How many guys still do that today while at the range regardless of what Semi Auto your shooting. I know your not wearing helmets but I will tap mine on the gun rest plate in front of me to prime the magazine before putting it in the gun. If shooting out doors I will bang it on heal of my boot. It is a habit I got into and I am just curious how many folks still do that today with their magazines? That may answer one of the questions being raise here. Do folks here think magazines that have been loaded for a long period of time may just need to be primed before loading in gun?...........just curious

[ncldwell]

Since we are on the subject of magazines I know there are a number of folks that served in Nam and other theaters of war both then and even now. Back when I was in Nam we always smacked our loaded magazines against our helmets before reloading into the gun to prime the magazine. How many guys still do that today while at the range regardless of what Semi Auto your shooting. I know your not wearing helmets but I will tap mine on the gun rest plate in front of me to prime the magazine before putting it in the gun. If shooting out doors I will bang it on heal of my boot. It is a habit I got into and I am just curious how many folks still do that today with their magazines? That may answer one of the questions being raise here. Do folks here think magazines that have been loaded for a long period of time may just need to be primed before loading in gun?...........just curious

 

My Dad taught me to do something similar.  He learned it in Korea.  I've never really made a habit of it but this is now the second time I've heard it.

[Garufa]

Since we are on the subject of magazines I know there are a number of folks that served in Nam and other theaters of war both then and even now. Back when I was in Nam we always smacked our loaded magazines against our helmets before reloading into the gun to prime the magazine. How many guys still do that today while at the range regardless of what Semi Auto your shooting. I know your not wearing helmets but I will tap mine on the gun rest plate in front of me to prime the magazine before putting it in the gun. If shooting out doors I will bang it on heal of my boot. It is a habit I got into and I am just curious how many folks still do that today with their magazines? That may answer one of the questions being raise here. Do folks here think magazines that have been loaded for a long period of time may just need to be primed before loading in gun?...........just curious

 

I have never served much less been in a combat zone but I do slap a mag down in the palm of my hand before inserting into the rifle.  Same with pistol mags. Not a learned behaviour by any means, it just seems proper to make sure everything is lined up nice and tight.  But I'm weird like that.

[TnShooter83]

A well made spring that has been designed to be left compressed should not "weaken" past the point of with the compression it is intended to hold.

Will it shorten or shrink? Yes. But it should have been designed with "point" being a known factor.

 

I agree with you it does weaken, but it shouldn't "weaken" past a point.

If you say the spring has not been compressed much, then that "point" was not right to start with.

In the end, it was most likely a cost issue. So your mag spring got cut in the budget.

Edited February 28, 2014 by TnShooter83

[bersaguy]

My Dad taught me to do something similar.  He learned it in Korea.  I've never really made a habit of it but this is now the second time I've heard it.

 

Yea, it was something that was mentioned during boot camp but was never a requirement on the range in boot but it stuck with me and I did it with every new magazine. In boot is was called priming your magazine for action.

[Oh Shoot]

....
Steel case ammo won’t hurt your rifle.

 

It's almost certainly true that the cases won't. However, the bimetal bullets that are generally part and parcel with steel cased ammo will most definitely accelerate barrel wear.

 

Extractor wear and whatnot from steel cases is anecdotal only, but the barrel wear from the bimetal bullets has been empirically demonstrated.

 

 

- OS

Edited February 28, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[bersaguy]

A well made spring that has been designed to be left compressed should not "weaken" past the point of with the compression it is intended to hold.

Will it shorten or shrink? Yes. But it should have been designed with "point" being a known factor.

 

I agree with you it does weaken, but it shouldn't "weaken" past a point.

If you say the spring has not been compressed much, then that "point" was not right to start with.

In the end, it was most likely a cost issue. So your mag spring got cut in the budget.

 

If I look at it with your point of view it makes sense about the spring getting shorter and it could have been a cost related issue for the  gun company plus my thought also is back when that particular shotgun mentioned was manufactured was it a common practice to load and leave a gun loaded for extremely long periods of time. That seems to me to have been something that is a more modern Idea than it was 20+ years ago. We always had guns in my home growing up but seldom Pump guns or Automatics. Mostly single and double barrels and they stayed loaded..................jmho

[peejman]

I am an engineer and have designed a few springs.... A properly designed spring will not weaken by being left compressed.

And by "properly designed" I mean designed such that the stress in the spring when compressed to the max in its application is low enough that the material doesn't fatigue significantly over time/cycles.

Sometimes it's not physically possible to do that. The requirements of packaging, rate, etc. may be such that you simply can't get there and the spring will eventually fail in one way or another.

And while a spring may be designed for "infinite" life, sometimes they don't get made correctly. The temper may be off a bit or it may have some corrosion or something like that.

When people disassemble anything with a spring in it, they tend to like mashing the spring completely flat into "coil bind". That's generally a really bad idea. If the spring doesn't go into coil bind in its application, it's likely you're over stressing it by doing that and causing permanent damage to the spring.

The same thing goes with extension or torsion spring. Stretch or twist them too far and you'll ruin them.

[TnShooter83]

When people disassemble anything with a spring in it, they tend to like mashing the spring completely flat into "coil bind". That's generally a really bad idea. If the spring doesn't go into coil bind in its application, it's likely you're over stressing it by doing that and causing permanent damage to the spring.

 

I never knew the term for compressing the spring more than it should have been. They say you should learn something new every day.

Now I know the correct term for it. Coil Bind.

[gregintenn]

Winchester went el cheapo after 1964. No telling who made the spring in your shotgun, but I'll guarantee it was the lowest bidder. I expect the replacement spring you buy will outlast you.

[chances R]

Yep, just the 'quality' of the spring, especially for early failure.

[Erik88]

I'm just not sure it's as simple as the "quality" of the spring. I'm pretty sure Glock puts a hell of a spring in their magazines, or they wouldn't be as reliable as they are. This still does not explain why even a good quality spring will be easier to compress after only a few days.

[MattCary]

I have never served much less been in a combat zone but I do slap a mag down in the palm of my hand before inserting into the rifle.  Same with pistol mags. Not a learned behaviour by any means, it just seems proper to make sure everything is lined up nice and tight.  But I'm weird like that.

 

I do this as well; never served and haven't been trained. Not sure where it came from... Hollywood, perhaps?

[2.ooohhh]

I never knew the term for compressing the spring more than it should have been. They say you should learn something new every day.

Now I know the correct term for it. Coil Bind.

Coil bind only means that the spring's coils are fully compressed and touching, upon which it's spring rate becomes essentially infinite. This damages some springs while others are actually designed for it, in fact some springs spend nearly their entire service life in full coil bind such as those in some sports car's suspensions.  :up:

[Mike.357]

I will test this soon.  Next time I go to Memphis and root through my Mom's attic I know there is a 20-round Colt M16 magazine fully loaded with blanks somewhere.  Got it when I was a kid and there's no telling how long it was loaded before I got it...at least 35 years.

unload it, then load and reload it thirty times.  If an old ass spring is a problem this should show it.

 

Personally I believe dryness of the metal is the issue.  If it had a light coating of oil the whole time it would not be as affected.  I dunno what the truth is but this is my theory.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Mike.357