Reloaded bullets seem to tumble?

[Dirty Gun]

First off I want to thank everyone who offered comments on "non-firing" reloads and it corrected the problem.  The current problem:  I am reloading .45 ACP with 4.1g of vv310 with cci primer.  At 30' some of the bullets seem to tumble.  I am using a four die set with a Lee loadmaster re-loader and have backed off the bullet seat slightly so I can catch the shell part with my fingernail.  Out of a Glock 21, any suggestions?

Edited February 27, 2014 by Dirty Gun

[Lowpower]

what kind of bullets are you using?

[Westwindmike]

Almost sounds like the boolit is too small.

Jacketed or cast?

[BigK]

You're seeing keyhole like holes in the target?

[Dolomite_supafly]

Suppressor?

[Dirty Gun]

To answer all the above stuff:  I am using Hornady 230 gr RN-FMJ, VV N310 powder at 4.1gr with small primers.

 

Yes the bullets are leaving a keyhole sideways, not up and down.

 

I am not using a suppressor.

 

"Boolit" not sure what this means? (Just looked up "Boolit", no I do not cast my own bullets, always an education in TN gun owners)

Edited February 27, 2014 by Dirty Gun

[E4 No More]

Small pistol primer for a .45 acp?

[leroy]

A few more questions:

1... Have ya measured the bullets with a caliper to see what size they are..? What is the diameter..?

2... Have ya looked at the barrel to see if it is leaded to the point that ya can see lead in the grooves...?

3... What kind of pistol; barrel length...?

 

Reasons for the questions... 45ACP's historically have shallow grooves and sometimes dont like cast bullets... Cast bullets tend to like deep grooves... Sometimes the lead bullets (...especially soft ones...) will skid on the lands and not spin as they should during firing....

If ya see a lot of lead, that is an indication of skidding....

 

Secondly; the bullets have to be oversized to the grooves for the lands to grab the bullet and start it spinning (...engaging the grooves of the rifling...)...  If the bullet is a bit undersized, it will skid over the top of the lands and not take to the grooves... This is the cause for the tumbling and key-holing; as the bullet is not spinning enough to stabilize itself...

 

leroy

[Jonnin]

I could not find anything offical, but searching for load data for that round (well, for generic fmj 230s anyway), time and time again people posted closer to 4.5 grains.   You should consult a validated source, but I suspect you could use a little more oomph and it might solve this problem.   I back this up with experience -- I am very cautious when I make a load and often my initial loads, which tend to have a rather low charge, will keyhole.  And every time increased loads straighten up.

 

I dont have experience with that powder, so this is all educated guesswork intended to provide a direction for you to investigate. 

Edited February 27, 2014 by Jonnin

[Dirty Gun]

A few more questions:

1... Have ya measured the bullets with a caliper to see what size they are..? What is the diameter..?

2... Have ya looked at the barrel to see if it is leaded to the point that ya can see lead in the grooves...?

3... What kind of pistol; barrel length...?

 

Reasons for the questions... 45ACP's historically have shallow grooves and sometimes dont like cast bullets... Cast bullets tend to like deep grooves... Sometimes the lead bullets (...especially soft ones...) will skid on the lands and not spin as they should during firing....

If ya see a lot of lead, that is an indication of skidding....

 

Secondly; the bullets have to be oversized to the grooves for the lands to grab the bullet and start it spinning (...engaging the grooves of the rifling...)...  If the bullet is a bit undersized, it will skid over the top of the lands and not take to the grooves... This is the cause for the tumbling and key-holing; as the bullet is not spinning enough to stabilize itself...

 

leroy

I am using a Glock 21 with a 4.5" barrel, I am using a TMJ Hornady 230 gn bullet.  I clean my gun after every shoot (brush) and once every 5 or 6 shoots with a barrel cleaner (Billistol).  They don't seem to tumble as much once I upped the powder from 3.8gn to 4.1gn.  Thanks,

[Dolomite_supafly]

4.2 grains is MAX according to VV.

 

 

Small pistol primer for a .45 acp?

Yep, that is all I use anymore. I have probably 1K of small pistol and about the same of large pistol. I prefer small pistol because I can use small rifle primers. Eliminates the need to buy large pistol to shoot 45 ACP.

[E4 No More]

Yep, that is all I use anymore. I have probably 1K of small pistol and about the same of large pistol. I prefer small pistol because I can use small rifle primers. Eliminates the need to buy large pistol to shoot 45 ACP.

And that isn't loose?

[Raoul]

And that isn't loose?

There are SPP .45 rounds out in the trade. I see Federal and Blazer .45 with SPP all the time.

[E4 No More]

There are SPP .45 rounds out in the trade. I see Federal and Blazer .45 with SPP all the time.

I have never seen them, but I admit that I've neither looked for them or thought to. I have all the brass and LPP I need...for now. :)

[Dolomite_supafly]

And that isn't loose?

What, the primers?

 

Small pistol and small rifle are identical as far as external dimensions. As long as your pistol will ignite the small rifle primers you can use them instead of small pistol. A 1911 hammer generally has enough energy to ignite small rifle primers. I do know that Rugers striker fired pistols generally do not have enough energy to ignite small rifle primers 100% of the time. And if I remember correctly Glocks also have a problem igniting small rifle primers. My Taurus 24/7 in 9mm ignites CCI400 small rifle primers easily. I use small rifle primers in everything, all my pistols ignite them fine and all my rifles ignite them without issue as well. I have not tried Tula small rifle magnum yet in the Taurus yet so I am unsure if they will work but the 1911 ignites them just fine.

 

With that being said make sure to follow normal reloading practices. IE, start low and load to the velocity you are looking for. You cannot rely on primers for signs of pressure because small rifle primers take more pressure before they show signs. As long as you are using appropriate powder and within the velocity range for the cartridge you are safe. Even using small pistol primers in a pistol is not a guarantee you will see pressure signs before something bad happens.  I recommend a chronograph to anyone who is reloading because it is such a critical tool in determining safe, as well as consistent, loads that anyone who reloads one should have access to one.

 

Now large pistol and large rifle do not interchange. If you install a large rifle into a pistol case it will not be flush and if you try to chamber they will not chamber. You also run the risk of the primer going off as it is being chambered and any out of battery ignition is very, very bad. And if you install a large pistol in a rifle case it will be too deep for a primer to ignite the primer in most cases.

[leroy]

I am using a Glock 21 with a 4.5" barrel, I am using a TMJ Hornady 230 gn bullet.  I clean my gun after every shoot (brush) and once every 5 or 6 shoots with a barrel cleaner (Billistol).  They don't seem to tumble as much once I upped the powder from 3.8gn to 4.1gn.  Thanks,

 

Interestin.... I would have guessed (...as ya could probably tell...) that ya might have been usin lead bullets... Since ya upped the powder charge and the tumblin seems to have calmed down; my guess is that it's low velocity causing the tumble... Upping the charge ups the velocity... I dont have a glock 21 (...but i would like to--- cant find a "lovingly cared for, lightly used one"--everybody likes them...); but we used to shoot the old Hornady 230 grain jacketed flat nose (...truncated cone...) bullets over 6.5 grains of unique and they shoot very well...

 

We also used 5.2 grains of Tightgroup with Remington gold dot 230's with great results... All out of a 5 inch government model 1911 and a light weight commander (...4.25 inch barrel...)... I would tend to raise the powder charge on these bullets with the glock polygonal barrel... My guess is that the faster they go; the better they shoot...

 

Quick update:   Just did a bit of readin about VV N310; looks to be a pretty fast powder... Faster than Bullseye and WW 321 (...or Titegroup....)...  I also took a look at the handloads.com site (...i like it, good data...); most of the VV N310 loads are for lead bullets; and are in the 4.0 or so grain charge range... There wuz one load for 230 grain jacketed bullets listed at 4.1 grains... All that bein said; i would look at using a powder that is a bit slower.... I really like Titegroup; and lots of target pistol guys like it too...

 

Hope this helps...

leroy

Edited February 28, 2014 by leroy

[sigmtnman]

Hey Dirty Gun,

 

I don't have any info for you, but I was born there at Manatee Memorial and I still have kin around there.

 

Good luck with your reloads.

Edited February 28, 2014 by sigmtnman

[Dolomite_supafly]

It could be that the barrel's twist is just fast enough to stabilize the bullets at the higher velocity but not at the lower velocities. 3.8 grains of 310 is on the slow side. Out of the 4.5" barrel I bet it isn't going 675 fps. 4.1 grains isn't much better at probably 750 fps but it might be enough to stabilize it. This is why a chronograph is important because without it you are just guessing at the velocity. From experience the load data numbers rarely meet the published numbers in real life. And the published numbers of 3.7 is 719 fps but those are generally out of longer test barrels. That is why I suspect eh velocity is probably 675 fps.

 

What is the length of the bullet itself? Not the loaded round but the head.

 

I will see if it could be the stability that is the culprit. The twist of a factory 45 ACP Glock barrel is 15.75. Not too fast but definitely not as fast as some.

[Ray Z]

I'd be looking at the tapered crimp die. If you're crimping too much it will distort the bullet. That will do it
every time.

[E4 No More]

What, the primers?

 

Small pistol and small rifle are identical as far as external dimensions. As long as your pistol will ignite the small rifle primers you can use them instead of small pistol. A 1911 hammer generally has enough energy to ignite small rifle primers. I do know that Rugers striker fired pistols generally do not have enough energy to ignite small rifle primers 100% of the time. And if I remember correctly Glocks also have a problem igniting small rifle primers. My Taurus 24/7 in 9mm ignites CCI400 small rifle primers easily. I use small rifle primers in everything, all my pistols ignite them fine and all my rifles ignite them without issue as well. I have not tried Tula small rifle magnum yet in the Taurus yet so I am unsure if they will work but the 1911 ignites them just fine.

 

With that being said make sure to follow normal reloading practices. IE, start low and load to the velocity you are looking for. You cannot rely on primers for signs of pressure because small rifle primers take more pressure before they show signs. As long as you are using appropriate powder and within the velocity range for the cartridge you are safe. Even using small pistol primers in a pistol is not a guarantee you will see pressure signs before something bad happens.  I recommend a chronograph to anyone who is reloading because it is such a critical tool in determining safe, as well as consistent, loads that anyone who reloads one should have access to one.

 

Now large pistol and large rifle do not interchange. If you install a large rifle into a pistol case it will not be flush and if you try to chamber they will not chamber. You also run the risk of the primer going off as it is being chambered and any out of battery ignition is very, very bad. And if you install a large pistol in a rifle case it will be too deep for a primer to ignite the primer in most cases.

See my other post. I wasn't aware that there were small pistol pockets in the .45 acp. I thought there was only large, so I was thinking ya'll were nuts putting a SPP into a LPP.

[expendable]

Are you sure they are tumbling?

If your target is lighter paper and not backed up well sometimes it will rip on one side of the hole and have the appearance of a key hole.

N310 is a excellent powder, very accurate, I would think you would really have to be messing up to make that load key hole.

Kurt

[gregintenn]

See my other post. I wasn't aware that there were small pistol pockets in the .45 acp. I thought there was only large, so I was thinking ya'll were nuts putting a SPP into a LPP.

I learned of them while processing a large batch of assorted range brass I'd bought. They are the source of all matter of cussing and wringing of hands.

[RED333]

See my other post. I wasn't aware that there were small pistol pockets in the .45 acp. I thought there was only large, so I was thinking ya'll were nuts putting a SPP into a LPP.

Bondo works wonders

[Dirty Gun]

Interestin.... I would have guessed (...as ya could probably tell...) that ya might have been usin lead bullets... Since ya upped the powder charge and the tumblin seems to have calmed down; my guess is that it's low velocity causing the tumble... Upping the charge ups the velocity... I dont have a glock 21 (...but i would like to--- cant find a "lovingly cared for, lightly used one"--everybody likes them...); but we used to shoot the old Hornady 230 grain jacketed flat nose (...truncated cone...) bullets over 6.5 grains of unique and they shoot very well...

 

We also used 5.2 grains of Tightgroup with Remington gold dot 230's with great results... All out of a 5 inch government model 1911 and a light weight commander (...4.25 inch barrel...)... I would tend to raise the powder charge on these bullets with the glock polygonal barrel... My guess is that the faster they go; the better they shoot...

 

Quick update:   Just did a bit of readin about VV N310; looks to be a pretty fast powder... Faster than Bullseye and WW 321 (...or Titegroup....)...  I also took a look at the handloads.com site (...i like it, good data...); most of the VV N310 loads are for lead bullets; and are in the 4.0 or so grain charge range... There wuz one load for 230 grain jacketed bullets listed at 4.1 grains... All that bein said; i would look at using a powder that is a bit slower.... I really like Titegroup; and lots of target pistol guys like it too...

 

Hope this helps...

leroy

I would prefer HP-38 to load my 9mm and .45 but as we all know we have to take what is available.  VV N310 is the only powder I could find within a 40 mile radius of home.  I did up the charge and they did better at the range this morning.  Hopefully I will try another few tomorrow.

[Dirty Gun]

Are you sure they are tumbling?

If your target is lighter paper and not backed up well sometimes it will rip on one side of the hole and have the appearance of a key hole.

N310 is a excellent powder, very accurate, I would think you would really have to be messing up to make that load key hole.

Kurt

Kirt, I must be really messing up.  I did up the power to max load and with the same targets the keyhole is gone.