Want to buy a handgun for home protection,,,,,Need Help

[Guest canynracer]

For the Frangible ammo discussion folks...

at the bottom of the PDF look at the pictures of the gellatin.

http://www.iccammo.com/pdf/Green%20Elite%20SD.pdf

[Guest canynracer]

OK, I found more, this was a post on THR:

Archangel

June 27th, 2006, 03:42 PM

I was bored at work, so here's some data to consider:

For defensive handgun cartridges, the IWBA testing protocol recommends a penetration depth of 12.5" - 14". The FBI protocol recommends 12" - 18".

If you're starting to visualize this in relation to a human body, keep in mind that the skin on the entry side is equivalent to ~2" of gelatin, and the skin on the exit side is equivalent to ~4". If you have an attacker holding a weapon up, and you shoot through their arm like so (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/images/armobstacles.jpg), it takes 10" of penetration to even reach the torso (2" for the enrty skin + 4" through the arm at an angle (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/images/MagSafe4.jpg) + 4" for the exit skin = 10".)

That being said, let's look at some test results for frangible rounds:

Glasers: (http://www.corbon.com/) Pre-fragmented round.

Says right on their websight that Glaser Blue penetrates five to seven inches in International Ballistic Wound Association protocol testing, while silver penetrates eight to ten inches in the IWBA testing protocol.

This link (http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/357.defend.htm) lists glasers as having 8" (blue) and 9" (silver) out of a 357SIG.

That fails to meet the 12" minimum for either FBI or IWBA protocols, and what is penetrating is tiny, tiny bird shot.

Rounds are over $3 each.

MagSafe: (http://www.magsafeonline.com) Pre-fragmented round.

Their website makes an unsupported claim of 10" - 13". The picture (http://www.magsafeonline.com/img/home_pic.jpg) on the front page does not look like nearly that much penetration.

This link (http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/357.defend.htm) and this link (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIIC2q6.html) both list magsafe penetration as 11.3", again from a 357SIG.

Not bad for a prefragmented round, but still less than 12".

Magsafe makes mention of both the Strabourg tests and Marshall / Sanow data in promoting their product, which I personally find a little questionable.

They also mention "hundreds" of gelatin shots, but offer up no actual test data from those.

And again, what is penetrating is tiny birdshot.

Rounds are about $2 each.

Corbon Pow'R Ball: (http://www.corbon.com/) JHP

Not really a frangible round at all. The Pow'R Ball is a jacketed hollow point with a polymer ball in the point to a) give it a round nose profile for reliable feeding, and keep the hollow point from getting clogged.

Test results seem ok from what I've seen, though not great. This one (http://www.thegunzone.com/powrball.html) actually shows some pretty poor results.

I had heard of some possible QC problems with Corbon, but that was over 2 years ago, may not be an issue now.

Rounds cost about $0.80 each.

Extreme Shock: (http://www.extremeshockusa.com/) Frangible round.

I have trouble even looking at these guys seriously because of the picture on their home page. I mean, if that doesn't scream "Mall Ninja!" I don't know what does.

Anyway, their description of the "Air Freedom Round" says

An AFR round has completely dumped its entire energy in the first 7", completely disintigrating the ballistic gelatin

7" is inadequate penetration for getting to anything vital. Thier ammo also seems to be designed around the unproven "energy tranfer" theory, and the misconception that gelatin torn by temporary cavity translates to tissue damage (it doesn't).

Rounds cost $2 to 3$ each.

International: (http://www.iccammo.com) Frangible round.

Lists the primary benefits of frangible as it being non-toxic (no lead) and reduced riccochet risk for close quarters training. They do make a duty round, but I find their test results interesting:

cal...............wt.........................................pen...........retained wt.

9mm Luger....100gr...Bare Gelatin...................15.00 in.....51.0 grains

9mm Luger....100gr...Denim, T-Shirt, Flannel....15.25 in.....52.5 grains

9mm Luger....100gr...Drywall, Light Clothing.....12.25 in.....48.5 grains

The terminal performance after penetrating drywall is almost as good as in bare gelatin. And it still meets the FBI minimum for penetration. So that essentially means that your neighbors are no safer than the guy you are shooting. Although only 50% weight retention is pretty poor compared to hunting or standard jhp rounds.

No info on price.

Compare these with, say, Speer Gold Dots (http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/9mm/geo9-124+p-g26.htm) which can be had for about $0.65 per round or less.

Any of the frangible or gimmick-type rounds could work. If that's what you want to use for defense in your apartment, then feel free. But realize that you are giving up terminal performance in exchange for over-penetration concerns. There is no magic bullet.

[Guest canynracer]

Also, it dawned on me that Air Marshalls use frangibles...

I found this on YouTube.

[ame]

[/ame]

[Guest canynracer]

and more from our friends at Extreme Ninja...I mean Shock

[ame]

[/ame]

Now, I dont know about you all, but I dont think I would be "pissed" if I was in front if it.

I am not saying either side is correct, but to say you will "piss" a bg off with ANY ammo is comical.

There is no magic round, there is no magic caliber, but they ALL hurt.

[strickj]

Wow,thats some good research cany!

Extreme Shock: (http://www.extremeshockusa.com/) Frangible round.

I have trouble even looking at these guys seriously because of the picture on their home page. I mean, if that doesn't scream "Mall Ninja!" I don't know what does.

Anyway, their description of the "Air Freedom Round" says

An AFR round has completely dumped its entire energy in the first 7", completely disintigrating the ballistic gelatin

7" is inadequate penetration for getting to anything vital. Thier ammo also seems to be designed around the unproven "energy tranfer" theory, and the misconception that gelatin torn by temporary cavity translates to tissue damage (it doesn't).

Rounds cost $2 to 3$ each

.

So basically that 7 inches of penetration isn't even enough to penetrate an arm.It would come up short 3 inches.

So add cany's research with the fact you probably wont find any

1) any reports of someone not being stopped because of over penetration,and

2) no real word reports of frangible ammo actually being used successfully

the choice is clear for anyone considering a gimmick bullet.

Also add the cost of that stuff.It would be veeerrrryyy expensive to fire enough of those in a carry gun to ensure its reliability in your gun!

Edit: the only reason one would want to use that stuff IMO is like [whats his face] said in this thread about not wanting to accidentally shoot a loved one through a wall,or from over penetration.

So Ill say this again! Never fire your weapon if you have loved ones BEHIND your attacker!

Edited September 29, 2008 by strickj

[Guest canynracer]

+1

[Guest JPH]

BEFORE you buy a gun take a Fighting Pistol class

There will be experts there teaching you how to use a gun as well as many other people with guns that you can see, hold and use during the class

First learn how to fight with a gun then buy the gun in that context

[catsbackr]

Unfortunately, it usually doesn't work that way in most cases.

[Oh Shoot]

Also, it dawned on me that Air Marshalls use frangibles...

I can't find any definitive verification of this...the US AM program did indeed use Glaser way back when, but according to many reports they have switched to normal hollowpoint rounds a good long while ago, in .357 sig. I've seen Speer Gold Dot claimed as the current ammo.

Almost all the info I could find are on various forums, people who claim to have "trained" or "trained with" FAM's.

Also, different countries use different ammo/weapons.

It's interesting that Glaser no longer claims that FAM's use their ammo, so I'd assume if they did, Glaser would tout that.

- OS

[Guest bkelm18]

There is no magic round, there is no magic caliber, but they ALL hurt.

There's a big difference between "hurting" and "incapacitating". I know there is no one shot stopper and shot placement is key, but some ammo has a MUCH higher probability of incapacitation than others. IE: JHP vs. Frangible, Buckshot vs. Birdshot, etc.

[Guest canynracer]

There's a big difference between "hurting" and "incapacitating". I know there is no one shot stopper and shot placement is key, but some ammo has a MUCH higher probability of incapacitation than others. IE: JHP vs. Frangible, Buckshot vs. Birdshot, etc.

I agree...the post was mostly in reference to the "that will just piss them off" comments made...

[Guest canynracer]

I can't find any definitive verification of this...the US AM program did indeed use Glaser way back when, but according to many reports they have switched to normal hollowpoint rounds a good long while ago, in .357 sig. I've seen Speer Gold Dot claimed as the current ammo.

Almost all the info I could find are on various forums, people who claim to have "trained" or "trained with" FAM's.

Also, different countries use different ammo/weapons.

It's interesting that Glaser no longer claims that FAM's use their ammo, so I'd assume if they did, Glaser would tout that.

- OS

I may be mistaken for recent changes, but the FAM I spoke with 2 months ago, said they used frangible (not sure what brand, he just said "Frangible") ...the FFDO's use .40 Speer.

[Oh Shoot]

I may be mistaken for recent changes, but the FAM I spoke with 2 months ago, said they used frangible (not sure what brand, he just said "Frangible") ...the FFDO's use .40 Speer.

Well, that sounds authoratative, but I still have my doubts...read somewhere on the Suarez board that they carry Sigs in .357 sig with Speer Gold Dots. Some of those guys oughtta know.

For sure, at least some of the pilots are issued HK .40's; the guy that had the AD in the cockpit had that, and was widely reported, but no indication of which ammo.

Hey, Randy Harris, do you know?

(I'll try to remember to PM him if he doesn't see this).

- OS

[Guest bkelm18]

I agree...the post was mostly in reference to the "that will just piss them off" comments made...

Ok, I didn't actually mean it would "piss them off", I meant it more as: if they are bent on doing you harm, birdshot and the like might not be enough to deter them from attack.

[Guest shortfri]

Ok, I didn't actually mean it would "piss them off", I meant it more as: if they are bent on doing you harm, birdshot and the like might not be enough to deter them from attack.

With that i agree, it might not. And i will say that a jhp round would go a lot futher in making them want to stop. All i've said from the start is that for an inexperienced shooter starting out, they would be a better round. How many shooters on this board have ever had to shoot someone breaking into their dwelling?

caneyracer good research.

strickj. You may address me as either shortfri, or william. If you want respect and your opion valued in life, the best way to get those are to show respect.

[strickj]

strickj If you want respect and your opion valued in life, the best way to get those are to show respect.

I think you have me confused with someone else! I have not disrespected you or anyone else in this thread

[Guest bkelm18]

With that i agree, it might not. And i will say that a jhp round would go a lot futher in making them want to stop. All i've said from the start is that for an inexperienced shooter starting out, they would be a better round. How many shooters on this board have ever had to shoot someone breaking into their dwelling?

caneyracer good research.

strickj. You may address me as either shortfri, or william. If you want respect and your opion valued in life, the best way to get those are to show respect.

Why do you want an inexperienced shooter to use an inferior defense round?

[Guest superslacker]

I'm not sure what everyone else has said, and there's too much to read and I don't care anyways, but I'd would recommend a Remington 870 shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. They're relatively inexpensive and they have more than one use.

[Guest russman37801]

I have to agree with the .38 revolver. Ammo is cheap, well as cheap as ammo gets these days, there are some serious +P loads out there that are super accurate and effective. You might just want to get her to the range and let her shoot a few range guns and then let her decide.

[Guest shortfri]

Wow,thats some good research cany!

.

So basically that 7 inches of penetration isn't even enough to penetrate an arm.It would come up short 3 inches.

So add cany's research with the fact you probably wont find any

1) any reports of someone not being stopped because of over penetration,and

2) no real word reports of frangible ammo actually being used successfully

the choice is clear for anyone considering a gimmick bullet.

Also add the cost of that stuff.It would be veeerrrryyy expensive to fire enough of those in a carry gun to ensure its reliability in your gun!

Edit: the only reason one would want to use that stuff IMO is like [whats his face] said in this thread about not wanting to accidentally shoot a loved one through a wall,or from over penetration.

So Ill say this again! Never fire your weapon if you have loved ones BEHIND your attacker!

You refering to me as what's his face is bad manners. While i agree with what you say about not fireing with a loved one behind someone your fireing at. I think you have the ability to either scrool down to my post.

[Guest shortfri]

Why do you want an inexperienced shooter to use an inferior defense round?

I don't if they choose not to. but at the same time i feel that someone new to weapns should be told about every ave. Then they can make their own minds up. While there are members on here that carry sidearms i wouldn't trust my life with i would still tell people about them and then let them choose.

[Oh Shoot]

You refering to me as what's his face is bad manners. ...

People have called me that, too. Since it's so much better than what they usually call me, I've always taken it as a compliment!

- OS

[Guest shortfri]

People have called me that, too. Since it's so much better than what they usually call me, I've always taken it as a compliment!

- OS

After going to the garage to work for awhile, I think your right. I think i overacted.

Strickj you have my apology for over reacting.

[Guest Phantom6]

People have called me that, too. Since it's so much better than what they usually call me, I've always taken it as a compliment!

- OS

Yup, I referred to you as "What's his face" just the other day. Shadow12 said "who"? And I said "aw shoot, I can't remember his user name" and then it came to me.

[Guest EDWSRTN]

Alot of ccw holders go for 9 cal as to myself i carry 40cal I beleave hit them once and knock then down.