Range report...bad

[Guest Todd@CIS]

From time to time I relate things observed on the range...both from the Police Dept and CIS. Hopefully some find it interesting.

I work for a PD that has every officer qualifying/shooting every other month (mandatory, unless you're sick or on vacation). This is more than any other Dept in the area that I'm aware of. Add CIS to the mix, and Dustin and I get to see alot of things at the range (equipment wise, what works/what doesn't).

Today six SWAT officers were qualifying and function testing new issue duty ammo. We're switching from Speer GoldDot 230gr to Federal HST 230gr+P.

Three of the six XD45s had multiple Failure-to-Feed malfunctions with the HST...all in the first magazine full (they stopped after that).

We also had 3 StreamLight M3s fly off of the guns they were mounted on due to recoil...one TLR-1 started to work loose.

These XD45s were previously malfunction free.

Our switch is on hold...

Edited September 25, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest Grout]

The XD 40 I owned had several FTF with hardball.

[TripleDigitRide]

My XD's have never had a single issue. It's all in the ammo.

BTW, Thanks for sharing. That is interesting.

Also, may I ask why they decided to change ammo?

[Guest mikedwood]

I like Gold Dot.

[PaiMei]

It just goes to show the importance of test firing ALOT of rounds in a SD pistol (or rifle) to make sure your gun likes to feed, fire and eject them.

[towerclimber37]

Todd, that's Awesome!

It's good to see you guys practice more with your firearms...and better still to see that the department is paying for it. (I hope they are anyhow).

have you had a chance to inspect the pistols that are FTF? It sounds like they just don't like the Federal ammo..

[Guest Ghostrider]

I've fired a few hundred rounds of cheap as hell Wolf 230 gr ball through my XD45c and never had a single problem. That sounds really odd....

Please advise if you discover the problem(s).

[TGO David]

{cough} glock21sf for everyone {cough}

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Why the switch? Cost, but not like it sounds.

We don't go buy the cheapest crap out there. We'll look at several good rounds out there, say Ranger-T, Gold Dot, or HST. They're all good rounds...so we get the cheaper of the good.

I'm not saying HST is crap ammo...I'm just saying we found a gun/ammo combo that does not work for us. Since these guns have been reliable with several types of standard pressure ammo, I believe in increased pressure of the +P HST is the cause.

Anyway, I'll be at the range tomorrow screwing around with this a bit.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest Todd@CIS]

{cough} glock21sf for everyone {cough}

G19 or G23 for me.

[DWARREN123]

Bad JUJU. Save a dollar and spend a life. Good job catching this before everyone was carrying the new ammo.

[Guest m4coyote]

I just purchased a Springfield XD .45 ACP 4" service model this past weekend, and was headed to the range this afternoon. I was going to buy some Federal 230 gr.HST on the way, so this thread may have saved me some money! Thanks!

[Magiccarpetrides]

Todd,

Do you think it was the HST or just the fact it was +P rated? It would be interesting if you all tried another brand of ammo +P to see if you have the same results. Any idea what the FPS difference is between the HST +P and the Gold Dot?

[TGO David]

re: Magiccarpetrides... I'm sure you know this, but +P is a very open ended term. Once it goes beyond SAAMI spec it can be labeled as +P by the manufacturer, but each manufacturer's idea of +P is different. +P is generally 10% higher than the SAAMI spec, but fudge factor is allowed.

As you indicated, running it through a chrono is the only way to verify what's really happening once the wick is lit.

[DavidD]

Todd, have you consulted with Springfield yet? Maybe someone else has made this same discovery.

[dunndw]

Why go with the +P loads? HSTs running standard pressures in a full size weapon should work fine. If you were running subcompacts I could understand going with the +P to sty to save some velocity.

I know the alloy frame Kimbers don't like +P ammo very much. I ran several through a Kimber 4in alloy frame and it didn't like it at all. I ran the same batch of ammo and mags through a 5in steel gun with no problems at all. Could the plastic fantistics not like the increased loads?

I'll take all the defective .45ACP HSTs off your hands :-)

[Angus]

Todd' good find and info. Thanks for this. As m4coyote said, you may have just saved him a bad day at the range to say the least.

This is why I dig this forum so much, always good finds in here.

Thanks all.

[musicman]

Todd, if you are in need of someone to do the menial task of funtion testing the rest of that ammo in your XDs, I will sacrifice of my time for the good of the police department.

I'll even bing my own earplugs!

But seriously, I hope the proper ammo for your guns is chosen, and that it never causes you guys any problems while your lives are on the line.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Magic...I think the "+P" is more the factor, not the HST. I have always thought that XD45 mags springs are too weak. IMO, I think the F-to-Feeds were caused by increased slide velocity coupled with weak mag springs...the slides were cycling faster than the mag could feed up another round. I had a KT P-32 that did this only with hot Euro .32ACP ammo. This has to do with the "dwell time" of the firearm.

DavidD...no SA has not been contacted yet. I'll probably do that when I get a minute. I don't expect much, though.

dunndw...good question. When asked, I gave the opinion that 230gr HST was good-to-go for issue, but that we needed to stay with standard pressure ammo in .45ACP. IMO, the increased recoil, blast, and weapon wear is not worth any potential gain in going to +P ammo in .45ACP.

This advice was not taken and the +P HST was ordered...but I must admit, I did not expect to have the results we did.

BTW, the total is now eight officers who tried HST. Four experienced malfunctions (three had multiple) in the first mag full and four had their weapon mounted light violently divorce the weapon...and no, the mounted light/malfunctions did not always coincide.

We placed an order for more Speer 230gr Gold Dot today.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest db99wj]

Interesting. This is something that I caught my attention was that the fact that all the malfunctions were with the first magazine, then they went on to function fine. Why would that be?

[Guest Mugster]

Check the OAL of both rounds. If the gold dots are shorter or if the tip of the HST round has a bigger diameter, I'd suspect the HST round is catching on something. Some of these newer fangled self loaders use pretty tight tolerances.

I'd kinda doubt federal would load a round hot enough to require a stiffer spring, but who knows.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Interesting. This is something that I caught my attention was that the fact that all the malfunctions were with the first magazine, then they went on to function fine. Why would that be?

Let me clarify...they only fired the one mag full. After the malfunctions and weapon-light launches, we said "to hell with that" and quit shooting the HST.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Check the OAL of both rounds. If the gold dots are shorter or if the tip of the HST round has a bigger diameter, I'd suspect the HST round is catching on something. Some of these newer fangled self loaders use pretty tight tolerances.

I'd kinda doubt federal would load a round hot enough to require a stiffer spring, but who knows.

Nope.

The OAL is identical and the hollowpoint cavity size/shape is very similar (neither are truncated like the Ranger-T).

Besides, your theory wouldn't explain the launching of four out of eight M3 weapon lights (2 of which actually broke).

It's a pressure issue. I'm not saying that the Federal 230gr HST +P JHP is necessarily a bad round. I would say however, based on this experience, that the +P HST is not compatable with the 4" XD45.

Rounds that our team has put through our XD45s with zero issues...

Speer 230gr Gold Dot

Blazer 230gr FMJ

Speer 230gr Lawman FMJ

Edited July 24, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[Guest tedbo]

It would be interesting what a chrono could tell about the different rounds.

[Guest Mugster]

Nope.

The OAL is identical and the hollowpoint cavity size/shape is very similar (neither are truncated like the Ranger-T).

Besides, your theory wouldn't explain the launching of four out of eight M3 weapon lights (2 of which actually broke).

It's a pressure issue. I'm not saying that the Federal 230gr HST +P JHP is neccessarily a bad round. I would say however, based on this experience, that the +P HST is not compatable with the 4" XD45.

Rounds that our team has put through our XD45s with zero issues...

Speer 230gr Gold Dot

Blazer 230gr FMJ

Speer 230gr Lawman FMJ

If the OAL and nose is pretty close, and there's no setback of the bullet on hitting the ramp maybe it is pressure. It could be you have a bad lot...it happens. I'd report it to federal I think if I ruled everything else out.

I have a chrono if you want to try and clock a few rounds.