Disrespect at military funerals

[TMF]

You want to disagree thats fine. You want to call me a troll, I'd ask you to show me troll. You call me a liar, especially on something like this, you better hope we never meet because when we do you are going to have a bad day I promise you that.

Ever since I removed you from my block list you have done nothing but try to start #### with me and no telling how much you tried to not knowing you were on it. Welcome back to it you worthless piece of ####.

Well you may be in luck. Feel free to PM me. I'll be back in TN in the spring. You can tell me all about your easily to verify story and then we can step into the ring. It sounds like a good time. Other than that, I'm done feeding trolls.


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[ncomarc]

National Guard from NY, Two of my Reservist buddies have gotten in contact with their COC and we're told that proper disciplinary actions were being processed. Seems all the bordering states have followed through with making sure this doesn't happen again.

[MacGyver]

This thread is on awfully thin ice...

[Hershmeister]

[quote name="MacGyver" post="1114514" timestamp="1393002513"]This thread is on awfully thin ice...[/quote] Thats being generous

[MacGyver]

Thats being generous

It's Friday.

[buck1032]

While I get what you are trying to say, it is still just an empty casket. I have had quite a few family members in the military, some that OPTED for the military funeral and some who didn't.

You however have no sense of humor and I imagine you never will.

Edit: Let me note that rather than just making your statement or argument, you again lead off with an underhanded personal attack... GFY

 

You want to disagree thats fine. You want to call me a troll, I'd ask you to show me troll. You call me a liar, especially on something like this, you better hope we never meet because when we do you are going to have a bad day I promise you that.

Ever since I removed you from my block list you have done nothing but try to start #### with me and no telling how much you tried to not knowing you were on it. Welcome back to it you worthless piece of ####.

Wow, personal attack much?

[Guest TankerHC]

On the "Empty box"  = no body, no disrespect. Let me just say what the rules "Used to be" and apparently are not today.

 

When you are practicing at home station, you can do it in the unit AO, but you show the same DEFERANCE as if you were standing in front of the family. You want to take a break, you go find another place to smoke and joke. You treat the Flag the same way you would treat it at any other time.

 

If you had more than one Funeral to conduct in a day, the last Funeral you would be staying in a Hotel, at your location for the next day's Funeral(s), that Hotel could not be within one hour of the location of the Funeral. The reason, the Funeral Detail would be going in and out of the Hotel, out of RESPECT, the family was not to see the Funeral Detail until the Funeral.

 

When the Funeral Detail arrived, the ONLY people that would meet with the family were the OIC, always a 2LT and the NCOIC, always a Sgt or SSG. We traveled in 3 Vans in civilian clothes, before meeting with the family the OIC and NCOIC would change into Dress Uniform, out of RESPECT. You, as the military representatives to the family for the deceased (You are representing the Military and the deceased) do not show up looking like a bunch of Civilians to do "a job". Because it is not "a job". The Veteran earned that Honor and Respect.

 

At the beginning of the Funeral the Pall Bearers (Those folding the Flag were also Pall Bearers if the family wanted and they usually did) were standing at Attention, marched in, at the back of the location of the services. It was so serious, that people (These Pall bearers) who marched every single day, had to practice marching in a slow cadence, the Lt, who saluted every single day, had to practice saluting at a slow movement without jerking and to perfection. Our Leutenants, and I know there are some Colonels right here on this board that know what I am talking about that were there back then, took that "Final Salute" so seriously, that they would stand around practicing that salute every moment they could while prepping. New guys would wonder and make comments about what that Lt. was doing saluting a tree and taking 45 seconds to do it. That Lt. was prepping his "Final Salute".

 

I literally was involved in the conduct of over 100 Funerals, and not just Funerals. General (President)  Zachary Taylor is buried in Kentucky, the Governor asked for an Honor Guard to lay a wreath on his grave. Everyone wanted to be selected, it was a big deal, I was very Privelaged to be selected by General Wagner. I never once recieved an award, medal or even a certificate of thanks, and never expected to. Because it isnt something that you recieve an award for, it is a privelage. When your gone, and no longer have any say in the matter, if your family requests a Military Funeral, they arent doing so to have a jolly old time, they are doing so to Honor THIER Veteran in the solomn manner with the Respect and Honor that only the Military and other Veterans know how to do and know why they are doing it.

 

It's all about "The Final Salute" and EVERYTHING that leads up to it.

 

And yes, this is an absolute disgrace. And it does matter. And apparently General Dempsey also considers it a disgrace. Considering that he is the Chairman, I see nothing happpy or jolly in these "Soldiers" immediate future.

 

One thing about these Military Funerals. There is no 21 gun salute. It is "Three volleys" from Rifles, not "Guns". In the Military, guns are cannons, Rifles are Rifles. The only "Salute" given at a military funeral is "supposed to be" The Final Salute, given by the Lt.  21 Guns are reserved for the National Flag and the President and visiting heads of state. Which is why The Old Guard always fires Cannons at the Inaugerations.

 

There is no 21 gun Salute at a Military Funeral. It can be any number of rifles, as long as it is three volleys. For our team it was 18 shot's , standard. 1 Sgt and 5 Privates, three volleys.

 

I did a lot of different things and went a lot of places in my career, but not one of those things was more impoartant than having the absolute Privelage to be involved in these things. It didnt matter if it was a Private or a 4 Star General, they all recieved the same respect.

 

So call me silly, but yes I am truly disgusted by this.

Edited February 21, 2014 by TankerHC

[Dolomite_supafly]

Not just the thread but a member or two also.

 

Seriously, if we can't restrain from profanities and insults it might be time to clean house. I have ZERO problem with booting the next person who decides to try to push the envelope.

[Dolomite_supafly]

You know what.

 

Vacations given, if you are still here to see this then it wasn't you.

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

My son is doing the honor guard  right now in the Air Force. if I would EVER see him doing crapp like that ? .. emty casket or not...he would have a hard time going back to his duty station with  2 black eyes and a broken jaw.

I would be so ashamed of it ..

I don`t know why people trying to minimize this. It is a shame :(

[whitewolf001]

[Guest TankerHC]

But Dolomite didn't give it time to reach Godwins Law so it don't count.

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[Mark@Sea]

I've been involved with military funerals as well.  I sincerely hope and believe those cretins are getting the 'readjustment' they obviously didn't get in basic.  Or a 2x4 shampoo, whatever...

[Guest TankerHC]

To be completely fair to the people in the above left photo, since they have been taking shotgun blasts all over the web and in the news. I do not think that two of them deserve it. Some may think I'm talking out of my rear end, but I know that there is no Command Authority in the NCO ranks. NCO's are part of the NCO Support Channel, Command Authorty lies only with Commissioned Officers. But the NCO supprt Channel is a parallel chain to the Chain of Command, so somewhere, somehow, some Commissioned Officer in their Chain of Command will be looking to his Senior NCO for a recomendation on punishment. But in the end, it will be up to the Commissioned Officer to decide what that punishment will be, and how it will be administered. 

 

I point that out because when saying that I see two guys in the photo that do not deserve whats happening, it is because I took a long look at that photo. And of all of them, the only two that are not goofing off, making stupid gestures, not laughing or smiling and acting like general stooges, APPEAR to be, and definitely one of them, the only two that are wearing patches on their right shoulder, from what can be seen. It would appear to me, and even their own CoC is only going to be able to go with what is in the photo, that at least those two, and not just because they are wearing a right shoulder patch, are the only two that seem to understand the seriousness of what they were doing.

 

Not being in their NCO support channel, or their CoC, I would still say that looking at the photo, if those two guys were to come to me and say that they had no idea those other idiots were going to do that, they were just taking a photo (And if you look you will see that they are in the pretty much standard positions to "just take a photo" and this wasnt a "prepared" thing), I would have to believe them.

 

No doubt punishment for all of them is coming. But I would say at worse for those two guys, it probably should not exceed anything along the lines of a summarized Art. 15 for not putting a stop to it.. IF these were my troops, the rest of them,  my recommendation to forward to the CO would be nothing less than "Whatever you think" because this situation escalated almost immediately and no NCO of any rank is going to be able to save their ass.

 

A thousand years ago you could handle things like this at the local level with a boot in the ass and some extra duty. Today the Chief of Staff gets a "What the hell were they thinking" call from the Commander in Chief.

 

How stupid can you be? TO the douche from their Chain of Command who made the announcement to the press that "They broke no rules" I would say, if he was in the CoC he had better pick up the manual and take a look at Article 134, it has been revised but "It aint new"

Edited February 21, 2014 by TankerHC

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

well.. doesn't matter .. if those 2 had any  guts and balls they would have told them to knock it off or put an  end to it.. they are in the picture.. no one is holding a gun to their head.. they are just as guilty ..period...

[Dolomite_supafly]

To be completely fair to the people in the above left photo, since they have been taking shotgun blasts all over the web and in the news. I do not think that two of them deserve it. Some may think I'm talking out of my rear end, but I know that there is no Command Authority in the NCO ranks. NCO's are part of the NCO Support Channel, Command Authorty lies only with Commissioned Officers. But the NCO supprt Channel is a parallel chain to the Chain of Command, so somewhere, somehow, some Commissioned Officer in their Chain of Command will be looking to his Senior NCO for a recomendation on punishment. But in the end, it will be up to the Commissioned Officer to decide what that punishment will be, and how it will be administered. 

 

 

 

Not always.

 

For non-judicial punishment an officer will be deciding the punishment but it is the NCO that puts that soldier in front of the officer. I almost always counseled my soldiers to keep them from sitting in front of an officer.

 

As far as punishment goes there is more than just non-judicial punishment. I have punished plenty of soldiers without any officer getting involved and the vast majority of soldiers hated the punishment but loved the fact I kept them from getting article 15s. A couple of hours of PT 3 times a day for several weeks definitely qualifies as punishment. Or having them check in with the CQ ever 4 hours for a few weeks also motivates a soldier to do what is right. Or having class A inspections at 11pm on Friday and Saturday night when their friends were all out at the bars.

 

We, as NCO's, tried to keep officers out of our day to day NCO business if at all possible. The officers often complicated things more than they need to be.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Dolomite_supafly

[bersaguy]

Glad I decided not to post in this thread. I could not say anything positive so I didn't say anything.................jmho

[Guest TankerHC]

Not always.

 

For non-judicial punishment an officer will be deciding the punishment but it is the NCO that puts that soldier in front of the officer. I almost always counseled my soldiers to keep them from sitting in front of an officer.

 

As far as punishment goes there is more than just non-judicial punishment. I have punished plenty of soldiers without any officer getting involved and the vast majority of soldiers hated the punishment but loved the fact I kept them from getting article 15s. A couple of hours of PT 3 times a day for several weeks definitely qualifies as punishment. Or having them check in with the CQ ever 4 hours for a few weeks also motivates a soldier to do what is right. Or having class A inspections at 11pm on Friday and Saturday night when their friends were all out at the bars.

 

We, as NCO's, tried to keep officers out of our day to day NCO business if at all possible. The officers often complicated things more than they need to be.

 

I agree with this completely, it is how it is. But I dont think that is going to be the case in this scenario, which is what I mentioned. I can tell you that a weekend of "School of the Soldier" will fix just about any problem. But not this one.

 

BTW, the new policy that was established by SMA Chandler, who is a Tanker and who I know, about recomendding Article 15's for failing to correct AR 670-1 violations is sort of ridiculous. Any NCO that cant make an on the spot correction to the point that it doesnt happen again (I  never had a problem with that) in my opinion (And a lot of other peoples opinion) has no business wearing the stripes and rockers. The day that it comes to the point that the NCO Corps needs to rely on the threat of non Judicial punishment to carry out what should be a minor on the spot correction of a minor infraction, is the day the NCO Corps needs rebuilding by the good NCO's who dont need that.

 

When I came in nearly every one of my Senior NCO's, almost to a man, were great NCO's and Vietnam Veterans. They warned of that. I was told by many, "by the end of Vietnam we had turned our responsibility over to the Officers and a lot of stupid new rules came into play, we had to fight to get it back, dont allow it to happen again". I may be retired but I am not blind, I have senior NCO's in right now telling me of the problems in the Corps, which all sound exactly like what those VN Vets warned us peons about.

 

One last thing, regardless of what any NCO thinks, they are not in the CoC, and when it comes to Judicial and Non Judicial punishment, it's all up to the people who have the Presidents signature on their Commissions. It has been that way forover 230 years, and has not changed today.

 

Good NCO's rarely rely on non judicial punishment, they simply take "Corrective Action".Just as you pointed out. Our jobs were to make the Commanders job easier, not harder.

Edited February 22, 2014 by TankerHC

[TMF]

Corrective action should have been the immediate response of the NCO in charge of this goat rope. Failure to comply with that corrective action should result in NJPs all around. The fact this made it on to the Internet rises it to the level of court martial and should end in a dishonorable discharge. Since they lack honor I suppose that would be fitting.


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