ATF letter. Do you carry with the gun or leave it at home?

[lsp408]

Hi, I recently bought a AR pistol using SB15 brace. SB15 came with a ATF letter. Do you guys normally carry that letter with your gun? Or you leave it at home?

[Oh Shoot]

Hi, I recently bought a AR pistol using SB15 brace. SB15 came with a ATF letter. Do you guys normally carry that letter with your gun? Or you leave it at home?

 

Just got mine configured, but going to carry a copy of mine. I already carried copies of rulings about "pistol-to-rifle-to-pistol" and "constructive possession" since I toted a "kit" for a while with one lower and both rifle and pistol uppers.

 

I also will carry the ruling about the 26"/VFG thang too since mine is currently configured that way.

 

 

Additional note: Just got this baby together in current confiig, and will be changing handguard, but going to make the VFG quick detach, because under exact wording of TN statutes, I can only carry or transport a "handgun" loaded with one in chamber, or transport a "rifle or shotgun" loaded without one in chamber, and with the VFG on it, it's neither. Not that your average LEO would necessarily know the finer points of ATF rulings, but no sense having such a gray area just in case.

 

 

- OS

Edited February 10, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[hipower]

Good lookin' rifle.

[Oh Shoot]

Good lookin' rifle.

 

Thanks, but it's a "firearm", and without the VFG, a "pistol". :)

 

This thread should really be in the Handgun forum.

 

- OS

Edited February 10, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[homeagain]

Just got mine configured, but going to carry a copy of mine. I already carried copies of rulings about "pistol-to-rifle-to-pistol" and "constructive possession" since I toted a "kit" for a while with one lower and both rifle and pistol uppers.

 

I also will carry the ruling about the 26"/VFG thang too since mine is currently configured that way.

 

 

Additional note: Just got this baby together in current confiig, and will be changing handguard, but going to make the VFG quick detach, because under exact wording of TN statutes, I can only carry or transport a "handgun" loaded with one in chamber, or transport a "rifle or shotgun" loaded without one in chamber, and with the VFG on it, it's neither. Not that your average LEO would necessarily know the finer points of ATF rulings, but no sense having such a gray area just in case.

 

 

- OS

 

Nice looking 'pistolfirearmish' LEO pop-quiz implement!  Gotta love its completely-legal, yet mischievously-defiant nature!

 

Edit: Didn't mean that negatively at all....I think it's awesome.

Edited February 10, 2014 by homeagain

[c.a.willard]

I keep a  copy of it folded up inside a ziplock bag that is placed inside the grip.

 

[URL=http://s987.photobucket.com/user/cwillard1983/media/IMAG0426_zps97a080e8.jpg.html][/URL]

[lsp408]

Good deal. I guess i will keep a copy with the gun.

What is VFG means?

Btw, badass looking gun.

[Garufa]

What is VFG means?

 

Is Vertical Forward Grip.

 

 

I have a general question....does the ATF ever change their minds?  What if a new inspector comes along and issues a contrary opinion?  Does that ever happen?

Edited February 10, 2014 by Garufa

[teecro]

VFG not allowed on a pistol correct? My ARP came out at 23" long without the SIG brace I've got coming. I'd like to add a VFG over an AFG if I could.

[c.a.willard]

It has happened a few times in the past.  Most of the time the approval gets pulled because of a significant change in design from the approved prototype to the final production item.

 In this case the only thing that changed was color and a harder rubber was used.  The approved prototype was made out of a rubber designed for prosthesis.  

 

A good example would be the Akins Accelerator.  The final product had a spring to improve operation.  That spring was ultimately what resulted in the ATF revoking their approval.  The original prototype had no such spring and the spring changed the design significantly.  The spring connected the receiver to the stock and would pull the receiver forward after recoil.    All the mechanics of bump fire, like the slide fire but with an assisting spring.

[Oh Shoot]

Nice looking 'pistolfirearmish' LEO pop-quiz implement!

 
  :rofl:  That's a good way to put it.
 
 

Gotta love its completely-legal, yet mischievously-defiant nature!

 

That's one of it's attractions all right, sorta sockin' it to The Man, 'cept of course The Man specifically  told us we can do it. :)

 

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

.....

A good example would be the Akins Accelerator.  ...

 

There was also that fake suppressor on the gun I always forget the name of, that ATF later decided was a real suppressor, or could easily be made into one, or something.

 

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

VFG not allowed on a pistol correct? My ARP came out at 23" long without the SIG brace I've got coming. I'd like to add a VFG over an AFG if I could.

 

Pistol must be 26" in legal OAL (muzzle device doesn't count unless pinned/welded to spec) to add VFG, then it becomes a "firearm", so still not allowed on a "pistol" of any length. :)

 

No way SIG brace would count, like pulling it back off the tube several inches or something. Only permanent muzzle device, the actual firearm itself, or stock have ever been mentioned as contributing to OAL in any ATF doc I've ever seen.

 

- OS

Edited February 11, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[teecro]

Thanks Oh Shoot that's what I expected. Didn't think there was much difference in the laws here in Mi and Tn....

[Oh Shoot]

Thanks Oh Shoot that's what I expected. Didn't think there was much difference in the laws here in Mi and Tn....

 

Those are simply the federal rulings, which are same everywhere unless state has more stringent ones.

 

One thing you've got different in MI is that feds measure OAL of a firearm at longest config, like with folders and collapsible stocks fully extended, but Michigan measures folders with it folded, don't know about collapsible ones. Know your rifles have to be 26" folded, unlike federally.

 

Folks do make folding AR pistols with the LAW folding stock adapter, too, so that might be an additional quirk up there regarding the OAL of a pistol, too.

 

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Oh, and apologies for absconding with your thread, ISP408, but here's final (maybe) config. Changed to MOE handguard and made VFG quick detach by using a .5" QD riser, a lot cheaper than going with a good QD grip itself, like a Tango Down. That way can carry or transport it fully loaded with one in chamber as a handgun with VFG removed, to to erase any doubt.

 

 

- OS

[Hershmeister]

Yes, i carry a copy of the paperwork and i also have a pdf stored in my smartphone too, just in case

[lsp408]

I like the PDF in smart phone idea.

So... Anyone ever get challenge by ATF or LEO regarding the SB15 brace and even slidefire stock? My rifle with slidefire stock and ar pistol with sb15 will only be transport from home to range then back home. Unless an agent was shooting next to me and hearing me bump fire or saw the short barrel ar pistol. Don't think I will get bother by it.

[JohnC]

Can they even force you to give them the SN# on the gun and the Tax Stamp when you're not involved in criminal activity?

For instance, I'm at the gun range shooting a SBR or FA and local LEO is shooting off duty (or on) and asks to see the stamp and sn#?

What about traveling in my car to the range and get pulled over for speeding?

Just curious because NFA stamps are not permits, to own said weapon, right? It's just a registration and tax that transfers ownership to you. Correct?

[Guest theconstitutionrocks]

I keep a  copy of it folded up inside a ziplock bag that is placed inside the grip.

 

Precisely what I was thinking

[Hershmeister]

[quote name="JohnC" post="1109182" timestamp="1392106447"]Can they even force you to give them the SN# on the gun and the Tax Stamp when you're not involved in criminal activity? For instance, I'm at the gun range shooting a SBR or FA and local LEO is shooting off duty (or on) and asks to see the stamp and sn#? What about traveling in my car to the range and get pulled over for speeding? Just curious because NFA stamps are not permits, to own said weapon, right? It's just a registration and tax that transfers ownership to you. Correct?[/quote] Incorrect - the tax stamp proves you have permission to own what is otherwise an illegal weapon. The presumption would not be innocent until proven guilty here. The tax stamp is like an HCP - if you don't have it you're in trouble

[Smith]

Can they even force you to give them the SN# on the gun and the Tax Stamp when you're not involved in criminal activity?

For instance, I'm at the gun range shooting a SBR or FA and local LEO is shooting off duty (or on) and asks to see the stamp and sn#?

What about traveling in my car to the range and get pulled over for speeding?

Just curious because NFA stamps are not permits, to own said weapon, right? It's just a registration and tax that transfers ownership to you. Correct?

Absolutely not. SBR/NFA info is Tax info and is private and can only be requested and required by the IRS.

 

However, since it is a felony they can hold you until a proper tax authority is summoned to get the information. It's just easier to voluntarily give the info instead of waiting for a tax authority to request and then verify your personal tax info.

[JohnC]

Absolutely not. SBR/NFA info is Tax info and is private and can only be requested and required by the IRS.
 
However, since it is a felony they can hold you until a proper tax authority is summoned to get the information. It's just easier to voluntarily give the info instead of waiting for a tax authority to request and then verify your personal tax info.

Thanks for the info. :up:

[Guest carter]

Just got mine configured, but going to carry a copy of mine. I already carried copies of rulings about "pistol-to-rifle-to-pistol" and "constructive possession" since I toted a "kit" for a while with one lower and both rifle and pistol uppers.

 

I also will carry the ruling about the 26"/VFG thang too since mine is currently configured that way.

 

 

Additional note: Just got this baby together in current confiig, and will be changing handguard, but going to make the VFG quick detach, because under exact wording of TN statutes, I can only carry or transport a "handgun" loaded with one in chamber, or transport a "rifle or shotgun" loaded without one in chamber, and with the VFG on it, it's neither. Not that your average LEO would necessarily know the finer points of ATF rulings, but no sense having such a gray area just in case.

 

 

- OS

what upper and buffer tube are you using there... building a few right now and am debating on going this route, wasn't sure what buffer tube to get and i'd like to make mine 26" to do a vert forgrip also... basically the same set up you have there

[Oh Shoot]

what upper and buffer tube are you using there... building a few right now and am debating on going this route, wasn't sure what buffer tube to get and i'd like to make mine 26" to do a vert forgrip also... basically the same set up you have there

 

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/75662-evolution-of-my-firearm/

 

Upper is 10.5" barrel. I bought it complete from J&T Distributing (the Double Star folks), has always run like a top from the git go.

 

Buffer tube is the new model from KAK:

 

http://www.kakindustry.com

 

They make two tubes that are specially designed for the SB15 brace.

 

The original simply screws in flush with no castle nut, sized for milspec thickness end plate to catch buffer retaining pin

 

 

and the new one uses castle nut like standard carbine tube, will work with about any thickness plate:

 

Both are right at 8.5" long past the receiver, and will give you more than 26" with a 10.5" barrel without counting muzzle device, which is nifty, even if you don't care about using the SIG brace, but would like more tube length for 3rd point of contact alongside cheek or into shoulder, or to use a VFG.

 

They both use standard carbine buffer and spring, and come without them or with just tube. They also sell it with the SIG brace in a combo also.

 

Incidentally, there are folks using the LAWS folding stock adapter to get the extra length also, or even adding it to the existing KAK tube for even longer LOP:

 

 

- OS

Edited February 11, 2014 by Oh Shoot