Islam Explained

[Marswolf]

I might add that when one goes to church, the church is the gathering of the congregation - not the building where it happens. You can have a church under a tree in a pasture if you like. I'd prefer that. And I still think that praying in the closet is one of Jesus most important teachings.

[molonlabetn]

It is about the systematic persecution and occasional massacres by one religious group (Christians) against another group (Jews) over 2,000 years, with no comparable actions the other direction.

The claim was made for equivalence. There is no equivalence, unless MolonLabeTN wants to count the Christian children killed so we can make matzos for Passover. And he can cite even more sources for that than he can for Jews killing Christians.

Islam is a very tolerant religion. Under the Ottomans there was a variety of religious groups (Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc) flourishing with something akin to rights. Ditto under the Moors in Spain. There was no such comparable thing in Christian Europe, and frequent witchhunts for Christian heretics of various stripes.

The situation today is atypical of Islam's history, exacerbated by Saudi oil wealth, the end of the Cold War, and a host of other factors. The rise of Wahhabi Islam and the unfortunate fact that it is the dominant strain among the rich Saudis makes for the current situation far more than anything inherent in the Koran. People may want to take a look this book for more info. athttp://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/ReligionTheology/Islam/~~/dmlldz11c2EmY2k9OTc4MDE5NTEzNTgwMA==

I made no claim of 'equivalence'... by saying that Jews killed 'their fair share' it was meant that there were Christian missionaries killed in noteable numbers by mobs and put to death by the Sanhedrin during the first several centuries. After that, the persecution of Christian was overwhelmingly carried out by other groups. Perhaps my choice of words was misleading, I can swallow that, but it is impossible to deny that it happened at all, or even insignificantly.

[The Rabbi]

I made no claim of 'equivalence'... by saying that Jews killed 'their fair share' it was meant that there were Christian missionaries killed in noteable numbers by mobs and put to death by the Sanhedrin during the first several centuries. After that, the persecution of Christian was overwhelmingly carried out by other groups. Perhaps my choice of words was misleading, I can swallow that, but it is impossible to deny that it happened at all, or even insignificantly.

You've managed to cite one, quoting highly partisan and suspect evidence. I hardly think that makes any credible case.

On the other side were tens of millions of Jews murdered by Christians, all well documented.

[saintsfanbrian]

I might add that when one goes to church, the church is the gathering of the congregation - not the building where it happens. You can have a church under a tree in a pasture if you like. I'd prefer that. And I still think that praying in the closet is one of Jesus most important teachings.

Yeah, I used to take nice long walks in the woods and just sort of think over things and "pray" letting the big guy upstairs know what was going on (as if he needed my input.)

A great camp in Hendersonville, NC has worship services by the lake during their summer camps. Kanuga. For any Episcopals out there, if your kid hasn't asked about it, look it up and see about sending them. Some of the greatest summers and winters of my life.

[towerclimber37]

Yeah, I used to take nice long walks in the woods and just sort of think over things and "pray" letting the big guy upstairs know what was going on (as if he needed my input.)

A great camp in Hendersonville, NC has worship services by the lake during their summer camps. Kanuga. For any Episcopals out there, if your kid hasn't asked about it, look it up and see about sending them. Some of the greatest summers and winters of my life.

I usually do mine up on the tower when I'm working alone...its some of my best times!

as for the Rabbi, guys. He is an Orthodox Jew. He doesn't answer to the same laws we answer to. while I really like him as a person, he simply lives by different laws than we do, so his world view will be different as well.

as for the idea that Jews have been persecuted by christians...ummm you should rethink that...

the most jews that have been killed were by stalin and hitler....2 guys that ...much like orthodox jewry, had their head screwed on backwards and didn't have a realistic world view anyhow.

just my 2 cents.

[The Rabbi]

I

as for the idea that Jews have been persecuted by christians...ummm you should rethink that...

the most jews that have been killed were by stalin and hitler....2 guys that ...much like orthodox jewry, had their head screwed on backwards and didn't have a realistic world view anyhow.

just my 2 cents.

Umm, I'd suggest getting an education before you write anything so ill-informed again.

Jews not persecuted by Christians? Try this little timeline, just from 1200-1800:

1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that "the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord...As slaves rejected by God, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ's death set free..."

1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that "Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress." They also had to wear a badge in the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished from Christians. This practice later spread to other countries.

1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This requirement was reinstalled during the 1930's by Hitler, who changed the oval badge to a Star of David.

1229: The Spanish inquisition starts. Later, in 1252, Pope Innocent IV authorizes the use of torture by the Inquisitors.

1236: Pope Gregory ordered that church leaders in England, France, Portugal and Spain confiscate Jewish books on the first Saturday of Lent. 1

1259: A"synod of the archdiocese in Mainz ordered Jews to wear yellow badges." 1 1261: Duke Henry III of Brabant, Belgium, stated in his will that "Jews...must be expelled from Brabant and totally annihilated so that not a single one remains, except those who are willing to trade, like all other tradesmen, without money-lending and usury." 2

1267: The Synod of Vienna ordered Jews to wear horned hats. Thomas Aquinas said that Jews should live in perpetual servitude.

1290: Jews are exiled from England. About 16,000 left the country.

1298: Jews were persecuted in Austria, Bavaria and Franconia. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed; more than 100,000 Jews were killed over a 6 month period.

1306: 100,000 Jews are exiled from France. They left with only the clothes on their backs, and food for only one day.

1320: 40,000 French shepherds went to Palestine on the Shepherd Crusade. On the way, 140 Jewish communities were destroyed.

1321: In Guienne, France, Jews were accused of having incited criminals to poison wells. 5,000 Jews were burned alive, at the stake.

1338: The councilors of Freiburg banned the performance of anti-Jewish scenes from the town's passion play because of the lethal bloody reactions against Jews which followed the performances. 9

1347 +: Ships from the Far East carried rats into Mediterranean ports. The rats carried the Black Death. At first, fleas spread the disease from the rats to humans. As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five years, the death toll had reached 25 million. England took 2 centuries for its population levels to recover from the plague. People looked around for someone to blame. They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws, which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder and burn the Jews. "In Bavaria...12,000 Jews...perished; in the small town of Erfurt...3,000; Rue Brulée...2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with blazing wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned." (5) In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed...; in Worms 400..." 3

1354: 12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.

1374: Anepidemic of possession broke out in the lower Rhine region of what is now Germany. People were seen "dancing, jumping and [engaging in] wild raving." This was triggered by enthusiastic revels on St. John's Day - an Christianized version of an ancient Pagan seasonal day of celebration which was still observed by the populace. The epidemic spread throughout the Rhine and in much of the Netherlands and Germany. Crowds of 500 or more dancers would be overcome together. Exorcisms were tried, but failed. Pilgrimages to the shrine of St. Vitus were tried, but this only seemed to exacerbate the problem. Finally, the rumor spread that God was angry because Christians had been excessively tolerant towards the Jews. God had cursed Europe as He did Saul when he showed mercy towards God's enemies in the Old Testament. Jews "were plundered, tortured and murdered by tens of thousands." The epidemic finally burned itself out two centuries later, in the late 16th century. 4 1391 : Jewish persecutions begin in Seville and in 70 other Jewish communities throughout Spain.

1394 : Jews were exiled, for the second time, from France.

1431 +: The Council of Basel"forbade Jews to go to universities, prohibited them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Christians, and required that they attend church sermons." 5

1434: "Jewish men in Augsburg had to sew yellow buttons to their clothes. Across Europe, Jews were forced to wear a long undergarment, an overcoat with a yellow patch, bells and tall pointed yellow hats with a large button on them." 1

1453 : The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to terminate all Jewish civil rights.

1478: Spanish Jews had been heavily persecuted from the 14th century. Many had converted to Christianity. The Spanish Inquisition was set up by the Church in order to detect insincere conversions. Laws were passed that prohibited the descendants of Jews or Muslims from attending university, joining religious orders, holding public office, or entering any of a long list of professions.

1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Christians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims. Others converted to Christianity but often continued to practice Judaism in secret.

1497: Jews were banished from Portugal. 20 thousand left the country rather than be baptized as Christians.

1516: The Governor of the Republic of Venice decided that Jews would be permitted to live only in one area of the city. It was located in the South Girolamo parish and was called the "Ghetto Novo." This was the first ghetto in Europe. Hitler made use of the concept in the 1930's.

1523: Martin Luther distributed his essay "That Jesus Was Born a Jew. " He hoped that large numbers of Jews would convert to Christianity. They didn't, and he began to write and preach hatred against them. Luther has been condemned in recent years for being extremely antisemitic. The charge has some merit; however he was probably typical of most Christians during his era.

1539: A passion play was forbidden in Rome because it prompted violent attacks against the city's Jewish residents. 9

1540: Jews were exiled from Naples.

1543: In his 20's, Martin Luther, had expected Jews to convert to Christianity in large numbers. Distressed by their reluctance, he developed a hatred for Jews, as expressed in his letters to Rev. Spalatin in 1514, when he was 31 years of age. He wrote:

"

I have come to the conclusion that the Jews will always curse and blaspheme God and his King Christ, as all the prophets have predicted....For they are thus given over by the wrath of God to reprobation, that they may become incorrigible, as Ecclesiastes says, for every one who is incorrigible is rendered worse rather than better by correction."

6

In 1543, he wrote "

On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras

" :

"

...eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

...What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?

First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed... They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews...

Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping...

Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses as in enjoined upon Adam's children...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews.

"

7

1550: Jews were exiled from Genoa and Venice.

1555-JUL-12: A Roman Catholic Papal bull, "Cum nimis absurdum," required Jews to wear badges, and live in ghettos. They were not allowed to own property outside the ghetto. Living conditions were dreadful: over 3,000 people were forced to live in about 8 acres of land. Women had to wear a yellow veil or scarf; men had to wear a piece of yellow cloth on their hat. 8

1582: Jews were expelled from Holland.

1648-9: Chmielnicki Bogdan led an uprising against Polish rule in the Ukraine. The secondary goal of Bogdan and his followers was to exterminate all Jews in the country. The massacre began with the slaughter of about 6,000 Jews in Nemirov. Other major mass murders occurred in Tulchin, Polonnoye, Volhynia, Bar, Lvov, etc. Jewish records estimate that a total of 100,000 Jews were murdered and 300 communities destroyed.

As for your implicit comparison of Orthodox Judaism with Hitler and Stalin, before I invoke Godwin's Law, I'd suggest you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject. And that's being charitable.

[Guest Hornet Handler]

Go for it! See if the thread magically disapears. This isn't Usenet and your no Godwin!

The mention of Hitler was on topic and in context.

[The Rabbi]

Go for it! See if the thread magically disapears. This isn't Usenet and your no Godwin!

The mention of Hitler was on topic and in context.

The context being Islam Explained? No, Godwins Law states that the debate is over when one side compares the other to Nazis. And it is.

[molonlabetn]

...Many good Christians participated in the holocaust...

It was over a while ago then.

[dkd83]

Since it is obvious this thread has gone far afield from where it began this will be my last post here.

Islam has changed significantly over its history. During what we term in the West as the Middle Ages 1000-1500 or there about, the Islamic Empires

(the Ottoman Empire and Moorish Spain in particular) far outstripped Europe as far as toleration, philosophy, medicine, and science were concerned.

The rediscovery by Europe of the ancient treatises on medicine, mathematics, and science came by way of interactions with Muslim and Jewish scholars primarily located in Moorish Spain. After acknowledging this we must also note that with the advent of the 17th century, the Islamic portions of the Mediterranean World began a steady decline, politically, militarily, philosophically, etc.

These facts make the desires of the Mullahs all the more disturbing. Instead of desiring a return to the high-point of Islamic civilization (14th-16th centuries) they instead desire to return to the 7th and 8th centuries, the years of the great Muslim conquests in the Mediterranean.

I will not address the whole sale persecution and slaughter of Jews practiced over the last 1500 years in Europe because if people choose to deny the overwhelming evidence already established within this thread then no additional evidence will sway them.

I will assert once again that attacking a person's religion on any plane other than personal beliefs espoused by the person limits and belittles any argument we might make. Attacking the canonical texts is a losing proposition no matter what rhetorical methods one uses.

Finally to answer questions posed to me by Rabbi: I never joke concerning religion nor do I EVER belittle another's beliefs or describe their holy texts as polemics or disparage them in any other way. There is no reason that I can conceive to stoop to such methods and to do so says much about the detractor.

Discussions of politics, religion, philosophy, and apparently illegal immigration lead to the worst side of all of those involved so from now forward I shall err on the side of civility when dealing with these subjects on this forum. I apologize for any offense I may have given anyone.

[The Rabbi]

Finally to answer questions posed to me by Rabbi: I never joke concerning religion nor do I EVER belittle another's beliefs or describe their holy texts as polemics or disparage them in any other way. There is no reason that I can conceive to stoop to such methods and to do so says much about the detractor.

Except it is the academic method to examine evidence, weigh it, and make judgements concerning its truthfulness. To exempt religious texts from this test is to belittle them. It is like affirmative action for texts.

[dkd83]

You misunderstand my point. Judge texts however you desire but use decorum and civility when attacking the bases of another's beliefs. As an example, I have strong opinions regarding Mormonism, their holy text, and the establishment of the Mormon religion, but I would not launch my own polemic against these very dear religious issues in a discussion only tangentially related to the topic.

Right or wrong you get no where by taking your approach in this venue. Personally, I am not offended by your obvious contempt for the New Testament and those that rely upon it to formulate their religious/spiritual views. We are not dealing with academic arguments in a systematic, scholarly way on this forum.

I am bothered by your delivery and lack of concern for other's deeply held beliefs. I am equally disturbed over the reciprocal attacks lodged upon you based upon assumptions about your religious beliefs.

[The Rabbi]

Someone used a passage in the Christian Bible to prove a historical point. It is worthwhile and entirely appropriate to examine the source of the proof to determine its reliability as historical evidence.

Contrary to what you write, I have never dismissed or attacked someone's belief or argued against it. I do argue about using sources that very clearly have an ulterior motive and cannot be squared with other contemporary sources. If those arguments have ramifications for someone's belief, that is incidental to the whole discussion, and well outside its scope.

If people feel their religious beliefs are being threatened by my arguments, then I apologize entirely. It is not my purpose. On the contrary, I have written that the lines of opposition today are not between Christian and Jew but between religious and non-religious. And indeed personally I have always gotten on well with all the religious people I have met, including at least one participant here in person who is my customer.

[Marswolf]

As Don Imus used to say, this is getting tedious.

[Smith]

Someone used a passage in the Christian Bible to prove a historical point. It is worthwhile and entirely appropriate to examine the source of the proof to determine its reliability as historical evidence.

Contrary to what you write, I have never dismissed or attacked someone's belief or argued against it. I do argue about using sources that very clearly have an ulterior motive and cannot be squared with other contemporary sources. If those arguments have ramifications for someone's belief, that is incidental to the whole discussion, and well outside its scope.

If people feel their religious beliefs are being threatened by my arguments, then I apologize entirely. It is not my purpose. On the contrary, I have written that the lines of opposition today are not between Christian and Jew but between religious and non-religious. And indeed personally I have always gotten on well with all the religious people I have met, including at least one participant here in person who is my customer.

And you should well know that using universals (ie. it is "undeniable" that the Sanhedrin account in the NT is completely made up) to dismiss the New Testament or any other textual documentation in its entirety is inherently erroneous as well as being a fallacy of philosophical argument. I do agree, with out a doubt, the Jews are (currently as well) the most persecuted group in all of history. However, to blindly dismiss the Christian persecution in China, Africa, Russia, Germany, and many other places both today and in the past as inconsequential is also erroneous (I also am aware that this was not done by the Jews). In fact in China alone (currently) the persecution is on par with any Jewish persecution event, save the Holocaust. You also said "ulterior motive" texts, referring to the Bible. Yet almost all of you citations are of Jewish writers or Jewish apologist. Not that they are wrong, but you can't argue against a point and then use the same one. I might also note that you have yet to cite Josephus, who is widely known to be an excellent Jewish and Roman historical source.

I have enjoyed my discussions with you in person and will continue to do so. No hard feelings, just understand as much as you put in to the Talmud, I put in the Scriptures. You reject the NT while embracing the Old (partially), I embrace both as God's revelation to man and finished work, culminating with the Messiahs crucifixion. While the law is still in effect, Christ made perfect what Jewish legalism had distorted and changed. A law of the heart for God. Not a law of the man to God.

[The Rabbi]

I never used the argument about the Sanhedrin to dismiss the Christian Bible in its entirety. You wont find a post where I did.

I havent referred to Josephus because I am not familiar enough with it. But Josephus also has an agenda and POV and his testimony has to be weighed against other contemporary sources.

As to present persecution of Christians, there is no doubt it is real and should be a bigger issue than it is. But it is not responsive to the claim that "Jews have killed their fair of Christians" which was the origin for this whole discussion.

[Smith]

I never used the argument about the Sanhedrin to dismiss the Christian Bible in its entirety. You wont find a post where I did.

I havent referred to Josephus because I am not familiar enough with it. But Josephus also has an agenda and POV and his testimony has to be weighed against other contemporary sources.

As to present persecution of Christians, there is no doubt it is real and should be a bigger issue than it is. But it is not responsive to the claim that "Jews have killed their fair of Christians" which was the origin for this whole discussion.

It was a point in a collaboration of dismissals of the historical accuracy of the NT. Which is to well argued by either side to so conclusive. Secondly, all writers, under your understanding, have agenda's. Including the one's you cite, without noting who they are. BTW, Josephus was not a claimed Christian. In fact he was a Jewish historian and Levitical Priest who saw and recorded the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. He also a commander in the Jewish forces that fought the Romans in the First Roman War 66-73 A.D. He probably the closest historian Jewish or otherwise to write so close to the time of Christ about the Jewish state, Rome, and Christianity.

[Smith]

If nothing else, this thread has been informative and really bumped my post count!

[Marswolf]

Enough is enough.

Closed!