Islam Explained

[saintsfanbrian]

I literally spit coke out of my mouth when I was listening to this guy

Warning some "offensive" language

From the land of Tea and Crumpets:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=418_1176494781

Getting a lot of material from the Libertarians today at another forum. They are in rare form.

[Marswolf]

That about sums it up.

Of course it also applies to a number of "Christians" here in this country.

[saintsfanbrian]

And other people that would rather follow the status quo than think for themselves.

[bteague2]

wow, he was a little off on a couple of things but it was funny

[Mousegun]

wow, he was a little off on a couple of things but it was funny

Please tell us what you feel he was "off" on?

I feel he pretty much hit it right on but there may be some things I missed.

[bteague2]

Islam itself is a peaceful religion, what you see on the news is a political issue. The literacy rate in Iraq is 58%, you have the Imams, people who are their religious leaders, pushing what they want on the people who can't read the Qur'an for themselves (which is why the church leaders are never the suicide bombers, they have a political agenda). The Qur'an even says that the other religions of Abraham (Jews and Christians) are to be left alone. And here's my quote to back it up, it's from a book for class on Islam, if you like I'll look it up in the Qur'an.

It is one thing to force conversion, which the Qur'an forbids; but it is another to conquer territory in the name of God and - from the Muslim vantage point - for the welfare of peoples who stand to benefit from impositon of the holy law. Religious minorites, especially Judaism and Christianity, have their place under the Shart'a as protected groups, but they are under certain constraints, one of which forbids their members to proselytize.

[saintsfanbrian]

bteague2, Thank you for that information. It would be interesting to find that in the Qu'ran if you have the time.

[Guest Ghostrider]

NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK.

I disagree. While I don't (and won't) have a koran, (qu'arn or however it's spelled this week), I find numerous sites on the web that quote the book as saying to slay all infidels. (a few quoted below)

Many people argue that this is out of context, including some of the sites that quote the verses. Perhaps.

But I retort that even out of context, if the Bible had a single passage in any context that indicated christians should kill all non-christians, then christians would be "racist pigs" according to the world press. And possibly islam would not exist today.

No, Islam is not a religon of peace to me. Unless and until the islamic community, immams, regular people, everyone, stands up and denounces terrorism and violence, it will, to me, be a religion of terror and war and worthy of abolishment and removal by force of arms.

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. Sura 2:193 and 8:39

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

"...slay the pagans where you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place" (9:5).http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1461_0_25_0_C44

This is not so much about war but the treatment of captive non-combatants.

Allah allowed Mohammed sex with captive women and slave girls(33.50)

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/58131

[Marswolf]

Personally, I don't want to be around radical (devout?) religionists at all. Don't care if it's Islam or Baptist. They all substitute belief for reason. You can't trust the irrational.

Me? I'm a member of no organized religion - I'm a Methodist.

[bteague2]

Saints, I'll look for it but finals are starting so it might be a week before I have time to search for it.

Quote:

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Well I do have one and Surah 2:193 says:

And fight until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers

And Surah 2:192 the passage right before that says:

But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Pulling quotes apart like that would be apart the story on Mount Olive before Jesus was arrested.

Luke 22:49-50

49When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

But we both know that is not what Jesus wanted.

[Guest jcoyle6]

bteague2, thanks for helping inform others here in TNGO. I agree with Bteague2 As a religion Islam is peaceful, so is Judaism, so is Christianity. However, as with any religious texts one can piecemeal anything they want out of the Qu'ran, Torah, Bible. People will find religious justification for whatever they want. It is the duty of the rest of us to be informed and educated on the subject at hand and ask questions.

[towerclimber37]

I've read the quaran..all 114 surahs..unfortunately its pretty much like the old testament..

I have 2 MAJOR problems with Islam.

1. you're not allowed to back out of it without a death sentence.

they as a religious whole, use barbaric tactics like rape, and murder to keep others in line and claim that their religion allows this sort of behavior.

when they act in this manner, they're no better than dogs that need to be put down.

Bteague, I have seen the fruits of their labors first hand. I can tell you..these people are good for one thing....Killing.

Christianity has the new testament...where Christ has taken the sins of man on himself...so there is no need to revenge wrongdoings.

this is NOT the case in the koran...according to al shariah, a man is allowed to take revenge. A woman is no better than property.

This is a religion that is trying to make the leap from 7th century into the 21st century...its a hard one..and many tennents of their faith will have to be changed before it becomes acceptable to me.

Otherwise, I will treat them with suspicion.

"Bis'm Illah Al Rahid al rahim":up:

[bteague2]

I've read the quaran..all 114 surahs..unfortunately its pretty much like the old testament..

I have 2 MAJOR problems with Islam.

1. you're not allowed to back out of it without a death sentence.

they as a religious whole, use barbaric tactics like rape, and murder to keep others in line and claim that their religion allows this sort of behavior.

when they act in this manner, they're no better than dogs that need to be put down.

Bteague, I have seen the fruits of their labors first hand. I can tell you..these people are good for one thing....Killing.

Christianity has the new testament...where Christ has taken the sins of man on himself...so there is no need to revenge wrongdoings.

this is NOT the case in the koran...according to al shariah, a man is allowed to take revenge. A woman is no better than property.

This is a religion that is trying to make the leap from 7th century into the 21st century...its a hard one..and many tennents of their faith will have to be changed before it becomes acceptable to me.

Otherwise, I will treat them with suspicion.

"Bis'm Illah Al Rahid al rahim":up:

Don't get me wrong I in no way agree with the things people do in the name of Islam. But in my oppinion that is a people issue, one day new leadership of the Islamic faith will give that up. You are right, from the 7th century to the 21st century is a huge leap and they are definitely feeling some growing pains similar to say, the Inquisition that now is recognized as wrong. But don't dismiss Islam, that would be a huge mistake that should be left to the mindless masses.

[Marswolf]

Bteague2, I think you are trying to be too fair. You can't separate the religion from the practitioners that fully. We have to deal with the realities of action by religious zealots rather than your interpretation of the religion's texts theoretical meaning.

Those who practice Islam do so on their understanding of the holy text, or more likely what they are told the text means. Evil is evil, even if done in the name of your religion and God.

[towerclimber37]

Don't get me wrong I in no way agree with the things people do in the name of Islam. But in my oppinion that is a people issue, one day new leadership of the Islamic faith will give that up. You are right, from the 7th century to the 21st century is a huge leap and they are definitely feeling some growing pains similar to say, the Inquisition that now is recognized as wrong. But don't dismiss Islam, that would be a huge mistake that should be left to the mindless masses.

No, they're not feeling the growing pains...WE are. Barbarism has been going on in the name of Islam and the phrophet since its inception. Violence was a way of life at that time, for these people...Islam is simply a good way for evil men to perpetuate that violence in our time.

Make NO mistake, Bteague..I don't dismiss Islam..I watch it very carefully and if it looks like its a threat to me or mine I take steps to render that threat nugatory...much like many Soldiers and Marines are doing RIGHT NOW.

You're welcome to argue the good points of Islam. Once you see it enforced with MP5's you'll see it in a different light. Any religion that does good in the world is one that is NOT compulsory.

All I see in islam is a shameless knockoff of christianity...with a bunch of thugs running the show. A thug started it though...so why not!?

[Guest Phantom6]

The BIG question that concerns me in regards to the "peaceful religion of Islam" is why in the world aren't the Islamic moderates stepping forward with more vigor to denounce what they and some of the primarily western liberal Islamic apologists are calling the hijacking of the Islamic religion? What are they afraid of? Death? Well certainly some may have that fear but I believe that given the opportunity to grow and flourish, the human spirit will cause an individual to overwhelmingly choose death on their feet as opposed to being forced to live on their knees in tyranny. So, until a major outcry from the Islamic community around the world calling for an end to the barbarism that we see carried out in the name of Allah goes up, I too will suspect with respect the Islamic faith.

[Guest SMSTRICK]

I think that Jay Leno said best when he stated that he would never say that Islam is not a religion of peace,....because if he did,....they would KILL him.

This English guy pretty much hit the nail on the head. Sadly enough , it also applies to the racial environment of my hometown of Birmingham , Alabama.

[Guest jackdog]

Thankfully, I belong to no church or sect. My faith lies between me and my god and I have no use for organized religion. Mars I agree with you whole heartily that religious zealots are evil be they Islamic Babist or whatever. Take the moral majority in this country as an example. People who will do anything there Evangelist preachers tell them is the thing to do.

[Marswolf]

I'm not much different than you Jack. While I'm still a member of a local church - the one I grew up in - I haven't attend a normal service there in about 40 years and have no intention of doing so. Guess I see no need to expend effort to officially quit. My relationship with my God is a personal one and I think "praying in the closet" was a serious admonition of Jesus that separates the true Christian from those who openly and very publicly proclaim their devotion to Christ.

Easiest way to get me to distrust you is to tell me what a good Christian (or Muslim or whatever) you are.

A couple of quotations from Bertrand Russell come to mind here. I quote Russell not as an authority but just as a guy who I happen to think is right in these matters.

"Religion is based ... mainly upon fear ... fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand . . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."

"Religions that teach brotherly love have been used as an excuse for persecution, and our profoundest scientific insight is made into a means of mass destruction."

[The Rabbi]

The Crusaders, good Christians all, raped, burned and pillaged on their way to the crusades. The Spanish Inquisition was perpetrated by good Christians. Many good Christians participated in the holocaust. And Lebanese good Christians wracked up quite a reputation dealing with their Moslem neighbors, as did the good Christian Serbs dealing with their Moslem neighbors.

But judging Christianity by the actions of those mentioned above is no more fair than judging Islam, a 1500 year old religion that is world wide, by the actions of the crazies you hear about.

[Smith]

I'm not much different than you Jack. While I'm still a member of a local church - the one I grew up in - I haven't attend a normal service there in about 40 years and have no intention of doing so. Guess I see no need to expend effort to officially quit. My relationship with my God is a personal one and I think "praying in the closet" was a serious admonition of Jesus that separates the true Christian from those who openly and very publicly proclaim their devotion to Christ.

Easiest way to get me to distrust you is to tell me what a good Christian (or Muslim or whatever) you are.

A couple of quotations from Bertrand Russell come to mind here. I quote Russell not as an authority but just as a guy who I happen to think is right in these matters.

"Religion is based ... mainly upon fear ... fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand . . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."

"Religions that teach brotherly love have been used as an excuse for persecution, and our profoundest scientific insight is made into a means of mass destruction."

Russell also didn't believe that anything really exist and he was not the happiest of people either. He feared reality.

[Smith]

The Crusaders, good Christians all, raped, burned and pillaged on their way to the crusades. The Spanish Inquisition was perpetrated by good Christians. Many good Christians participated in the holocaust. And Lebanese good Christians wracked up quite a reputation dealing with their Moslem neighbors, as did the good Christian Serbs dealing with their Moslem neighbors.

But judging Christianity by the actions of those mentioned above is no more fair than judging Islam, a 1500 year old religion that is world wide, by the actions of the crazies you hear about.

To be exact they were actually Catholic. There were a lot of other "Christians" that fought back and eventually changed the course of the Christian faith back to it's rightful path - unlike what is happening in Islam were there is no attempt to change.

Comparing Islam with Christianity is like trying to compare the U.S.S.R. with the U.S. Sure there are some similarities and both have done things we would rather forget, but the underlying ideologies and right and wrong of things are worlds apart and black and white. To confuse the two is ideological suicide.

BTW had it not been for the Crusades (more of an economic crusade than Religious) the Jews would have never had a chance to go back and inhabit Israel. Just food for thought.

[saintsfanbrian]

The Square Root of Nothing

My God is a slam-dancer on a floor with spectral,

psychedelic lights;

and people; and noises; and bumps --

(He keeps His eyes closed)

My God moves like nobody can;

and breaks, and turns, and lunges

like some gorgeous blue fluid

at zero gravity.

If the music had life and a body,

it would mirror the moves my God makes,

and it does.

My God is an oak tree in the desert,

alone for 12,000 miles around;

with roots so deep and strong they hold the earth in orbit;

and a trunk so sure and constant to hold up the sky,

that it makes Atlas

look like Pee Wee Herman

in Ethiopia.

(Still, one time I carved "Curt loves God"

with my finger into his trunk, and the sky moved.)

His branches are too wide for infinity to imagine,

And I've climbed all over every one.

My God is the random savagery of a storm's eye.

My God is a terrified butterfly,

crushed under the heel of the boot

of a seventeen year-old axe-murderer

on Good Friday.

My God is tenderness incarnate.

He hugs everybody constantly, and He loves quiche;

but man, he could whip your ass like standing still.

My God's not hip to religion, never has been;

too many laws and doctrines and subdivided

denominations to keep up with. My God is love.

He makes the cloth for the lilies of the field.

He can do more with a mustard seed

than Julia Child has ever done with prime rib.

He's the reason strangers smile back.

My God is Your God too (take it or leave it),

and what I know and can tell of him is still only

the square root of nothing.

Jesus Christ is risen,

May the sky forever move.

A poem by Curt Kloninger that I found when I was in high school. Still has truth to it today.

[The Rabbi]

To be exact they were actually Catholic. There were a lot of other "Christians" that fought back and eventually changed the course of the Christian faith back to it's rightful path - unlike what is happening in Islam were there is no attempt to change.

Comparing Islam with Christianity is like trying to compare the U.S.S.R. with the U.S. Sure there are some similarities and both have done things we would rather forget, but the underlying ideologies and right and wrong of things are worlds apart and black and white. To confuse the two is ideological suicide.

BTW had it not been for the Crusades (more of an economic crusade than Religious) the Jews would have never had a chance to go back and inhabit Israel. Just food for thought.

So Catholics aren't Christians? News to me.

But I could add the good Protestant Christians in Northern Ireland and their warm relations with their fellow good Catholics there.

As for the Crusades, I'd suggest some homework is in order:

The Crusaders' atrocities against Jews in the German and Hungarian towns, later also in those of France, England, and in the massacres of Jews in Palestine and Syria have become a significant part of the history of anti-Semitism, although no Crusade was ever declared against Jews. These attacks left behind for centuries strong feelings of ill will on both sides. The social position of the Jews in western Europe was distinctly worsened, and legal restrictions increased during and after the Crusades. They prepared the way for the anti-Jewish legislation of Pope Innocent III and formed the turning-point in medieval anti-Semitism.

The crusading period brought with it many narratives from Jewish sources. Among the better-known Jewish narratives are the chronicles of Solomon Bar Simson and Rabbi Eliezer bar Nathan, "The Narrative of the Old Persecutions," by Mainz Anonymous, and "Sefer Zekhirah," and "The Book of Remembrance," by Rabbi Ephraim of Bonn.

[molonlabetn]

I think everybody gets the point that people of differing religions have been killing each other, more or less, for millenia...

I mean, Jews have killed their fair share of Christians too... including the first one...

I don't think there's any good argument for saying that a religion makes any given person better or worse, morally. At best, it is a type of education in virtue and principle, which might be argued in favor of some more than others.