Networking Question from the current Pro's

[Guest TankerHC]

Usually I can just figure this out myself but this is something I have never done and the opinions around the web and on comp.com and the Engineer boards seem to be too mixed. Yes, no maybe, I dont know. I want to see what some of the active Network Engineers here think. 

 

I run several Forums. One of them is a Genealogy Forum. One of my Forums is on a Host with a dedicated server. The other is on a shared server that allows 120,000 hits before blocking for 10-15 minutes then re-activating. Initially no problem but it is becoming a PITA.

 

I have deactivated the Forum for now and invested quite a bit of $ in VB5 and a bunch of addons and Mods, skins, etc. Current cost on the shared server is cheap as expected,on a shared server, about $3 per month, but with 6 domains and domain security add all that and it started getting a little expensive to be hosted on a shared server. 

 

So getting to the question. What is the possibility of hosting the Forum out of my own house on my own server? 

 

Here is where I am at right now.

 

I have to use Charter. EPB is one street down and already told me they would never be able to get to my house due to Franchise Agreements. I understand how that works so I believe it will never get here. But Charter is bumping basic service up to 50 Mbps with no additional charge and the option for 100 is coming down in price. Will run me around $70 per month.To move to a dedicated host server will bump that particular Forum up to $120 per month not counting annual domain and domain security fees.

 

I have the hardware right now I could put together a 26 TB server in about an hour.

 

I dont expect ever going higher than 1000-1200 members. It is a pretty specific Forum.

 

So to add to the original question.

 

* Considering that I dont expect to have over 1200 members (All family) and probably never more than 100-200 on at a time except to host "Special Events and Classes" would 100 Mbps + 5 up suffice?

 

* Is it even possible to host a website or Forum on a private server like that and if so which software would be best for doing it? Freeware and Open Source Software would be preferable.

 

* A T1 is out of the question since the cheapest I can find a T1 around here is $200 per month.

 

* If any of this is doable, what issues would a be looking at other than the normal server maintenance?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited February 8, 2014 by TankerHC

[Oh Shoot]

Your upload speed will determine what the users get, ya know. Is it enough, shared with x users at a time?

 

Doesn't Charter have a max bandwidth per month like Comcast's 250 GB? If so, it that enough?

 

Wouldn't you also have to get a static IP? Comcast won't give you one for residential account AFAIK.

 

etc.

 

- OS

Edited February 8, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[itchytriggerfinger]

No static IP needed if you utilize Dynamic DNS. OS is right that the performance to your users is directly correlated to your upload speeds. Also keep in mind this is in direct violation of your TOS with Charter. They may monitor sustained outbound traffic to isolated those hosting websites, P2P servers, etc.

But short answer, yes you could do it.

[Guest TankerHC]

No static IP needed if you utilize Dynamic DNS. OS is right that the performance to your users is directly correlated to your upload speeds. Also keep in mind this is in direct violation of your TOS with Charter. They may monitor sustained outbound traffic to isolated those hosting websites, P2P servers, etc.

But short answer, yes you could do it.

 

Wouldnt be in violation of the TOS because I would be going with Charter Business and would also have a Static IP address. The speed question is the real question, 5 up on my end wold be about the same as I have on the normal customer service, but anyway to calculate an average per user/overall bandwidth usage? I still have my old engineering books but they are 5 years old, I know calculations would only really be an estimate. 

 

But lets say you have 50 people all doing what we do here, basically, uploading to a server that had a 100 Mpbs capability, and anyone who would read the contracts know 100 doesnt mean 100 or 50 mean 50, it is up to.

 

So assuming that wouldnt work, to keep bandwidth costs down, other than going with a dedicated host server, are there any other options?

[Guest TankerHC]

One thing I should mentioned is that it isnt a Host server issue, it is a cost issue. 100% is out of pocket with no return. The Forum is limited to relatives and relatives of relatives. What I am specifically looking to do is keep costs down, host the forum and keep it free for the users.

 

One other thing I was wondering. Is mirroring still an option. Is it still possible to run the same site on two seperate hosts with two seperate database's on some sort of continuous backup? 

[2.ooohhh]

Wouldnt be in violation of the TOS because I would be going with Charter Business and would also have a Static IP address. The speed question is the real question, 5 up on my end wold be about the same as I have on the normal customer service, but anyway to calculate an average per user/overall bandwidth usage? I still have my old engineering books but they are 5 years old, I know calculations would only really be an estimate. 

 

But lets say you have 50 people all doing what we do here, basically, uploading to a server that had a 100 Mpbs capability, and anyone who would read the contracts know 100 doesnt mean 100 or 50 mean 50, it is up to.

 

So assuming that wouldnt work, to keep bandwidth costs down, other than going with a dedicated host server, are there any other options?

 

Actually on the business side bandwidth is often quoted as AT LEAST "X" Mbps because this the the way the SLAs are written.

 

If your currently managing the forum are you not running any analytics? I run google analytics on my all my sites and between that and the server side reports I have no issues knowing what I need to host them. I know that my smaller forum(2k registered users) could be easily hosted on my current business account but not at the same time as my video servers(14 users), but my larger forum(78k registered users) is too large to really run on business accounts available at my current address.

 

A few of my smaller sites are running on a virtual server that is tremendously cheap and VERY reliable compared to maintaining my own.

[2.ooohhh]

One thing I should mentioned is that it isnt a Host server issue, it is a cost issue. 100% is out of pocket with no return. The Forum is limited to relatives and relatives of relatives. What I am specifically looking to do is keep costs down, host the forum and keep it free for the users.

 

One other thing I was wondering. Is mirroring still an option. Is it still possible to run the same site on two seperate hosts with two seperate database's on some sort of continuous backup? 

Yes mirroring is still an option, I use it on my larger forum to boost performance for our users overseas. But remember that mirroring typically doubles+ the cost as you now have multiple servers in different locations.

[Guest TankerHC]

Actually on the business side bandwidth is often quoted as AT LEAST "X" Mbps because this the the way the SLAs are written.

 

If your currently managing the forum are you not running any analytics? I run google analytics on my all my sites and between that and the server side reports I have no issues knowing what I need to host them. I know that my smaller forum(2k registered users) could be easily hosted on my current business account but not at the same time as my video servers(14 users), but my larger forum(78k registered users) is too large to really run on business accounts available at my current address.

 

A few of my smaller sites are running on a virtual server that is tremendously cheap and VERY reliable compared to maintaining my own.

 

Thats the issue. It is on a shared server, which unless it has changed is the same thing as a virtual. Multiple accounts running single server. One account eats up bandwidth, the rest slow down. I use ipage, they are ranked number one and I have tried a couple of the other cNet top 10's, they all have the same issue, bandwidth hogs get shut down for a limited time period. Members LEAVE AND DONT COME BACK when that happens. 

[2.ooohhh]

Thats the issue. It is on a shared server, which unless it has changed is the same thing as a virtual. Multiple accounts running single server. One account eats up bandwidth, the rest slow down. I use ipage, they are ranked number one and I have tried a couple of the other cNet top 10's, they all have the same issue, bandwidth hogs get shut down for a limited time period. Members LEAVE AND DONT COME BACK when that happens. 

Shared hosting is different than a Virtual Private Server, in a VPS each account gets their own server instance on which to host their site or sites. Each instance in limited in physical resources so there are no resource hogs. management of server load between multiple hosted sites becomes the job of the renter of the VPS rather than the hosting company and if one site is hogging all the resources you move it to it's own VPS, once it's large enough to be maxing it's own VPS out you graduate to your own dedicated server(s).

[2.ooohhh]

Here is iPage's page about their VPS and Dedicated Server options. These are what you step up to when you are beyond managed hosting.

 

http://www.ipage.com/advanced-hosting/

[Guest TankerHC]

Shared hosting is different than a Virtual Private Server, in a VPS each account gets their own server instance on which to host their site or sites. Each instance in limited in physical resources so there are no resource hogs. management of server load between multiple hosted sites becomes the job of the renter of the VPS rather than the hosting company and if one site is hogging all the resources you move it to it's own VPS, once it's large enough to be maxing it's own VPS out you graduate to your own dedicated server(s).

 

Talking with someone on that right now. 

[2.ooohhh]

So while ipage offers VPS options they are kind of expensive for what you get. My favorite VPS of the 3 I manage is through Digital Ocean it's been incredible for the $10 a month I spend on it.

[tnguy]

Sounds like you're on the border of running an amateur and a professional site. Off your own connection is probably fine for that but if you want some cheap alternatives, you could look at services like AWS and Nearly Free Speech which bill you by the amount you use (AWS actually has a free tier available for the first year).

[Guest TankerHC]

Lot of good ideas here. Figured I would follow up and say thanks. Problem I found was cost for dedicated hosting. Moving up to a business account on my current Broadband Provider and speaking with them on usage, this will not be an issue.

 

I was going with BSD since I actually trained on Unix, instead I am going with a Linux distro because of all of the options (And its also free, not to mention the security) and ease of use. For the web server I am going with Nginx.

 

I already have plenty of hardware, I will be using an extra NAT capable N Router coming in on a single high order port. Using a plain old dual core processor since a single would actually do it, later, (Not a lot later) Ill add a complete backup (Hardware and software) to the server in the event of failure.

 

I now know this is overkill, but would rather have more than not enough. Drivespace is a 3 TB WD Black Edition but I also added a 3TB Toshiba wireless drive for backup.

 

Considering the limited usage, everything will be more than enough and short of a Broadband outage I have total control over my site (Or will have). 

 

Im still making decisions. Like VM vs Physical Server, but considering if I wanted a VM (Like VirtualSphere) I could stick with shared hosting I am not looking in that direction too hard. 

 

This turned out to be a lot easier than I thought it would be.On top of that I am Beta testing (soon) the "next big thing" in Home networking that is supposed to launch next February, at the end of Beta I will get to keep it free like most of the other hardware I have Beta tested, if it works I plan on just adding it in because it will negate a lot of other hardware. 

 

Ill post a pic of my home based web server built out of spare parts and open source software when it is done. 

[itchytriggerfinger]

I'm a CentOS junkie for everything.  One easy thing is to use CentOS with the Virtual Machine Manager.  You can then split it up however you want.  

 

But like you said, it doesn't sound that complicated so a single CentOS install with Apache and whatever DBMS you use will probably be fine. 

[tnguy]

Slackware FTW. My new email server is currently a motherboard and hard-drive sitting on my desk (yes, it's running). It's going in the case occupied by the old one once I have decommissioned it fully.

 

Depending on usage, you might want to consider some level of RAID. I currently have a straight mirror. It's reasonably easy to do with modern distributions.

[jcj]

Slackware FTW. My new email server is currently a motherboard and hard-drive sitting on my desk (yes, it's running). It's going in the case occupied by the old one once I have decommissioned it fully.

 

Depending on usage, you might want to consider some level of RAID. I currently have a straight mirror. It's reasonably easy to do with modern distributions.

 

Slack! I approve.  I'm old school as well.  I run Debian servers. Why? Because that's what I 'started on' many years ago.  No other real reason. 

[Guest drv2fst]

I hosted a site using MacMiniVault for a few years.  It worked really well.  Their service is $29.99 / month plus the cost of the server hardware which you can Rent2Own from them for an additional $29.17 per month and up.  It's Mac hardware and the Apple Server OS comes on it by default but they are happy to help you one of several different OS's if you want.

 

I had 6000 active users hitting the server many times per day and didn't even use 10% of the servers resources.

[GlockSpock]

In terms of pure technological software.

I don't have any experience running forums, but I have set one up before.

You could setup a "LAMP" server for free. Linux-Apache-MySQL-PHP

You can do this with Ubuntu Server pretty easily. I think you could start and have a lamp server in less than 30 minutes if not 20.

http://www.ubuntu.com/server

As far as the forum software:

https://www.phpbb.com
http://www.phorum.org/
http://vanillaforums.org/

It'd take a few hours reading and tweaking, but I'd say you could have a forum running from your house in about 2-4 hours if you went at it. But then you'd spend much more than that customizing it all. Unless you wanted to, you could technically get by without spending a single $ on software. You have the hardware, your only fixed cost would be ISP. You could cheat and use something like dyDNS, but you are correct that the right way to do it would be to pay for a business account.

[JayC]

Tanker,

 

I just saw this post, sorry for posting so late...  I own a business that does exactly what you're doing but on a larger scale.

 

First, if you'll PM me your phone number I'll have one of my interns call you back and give you a hand finding better hosting...   it would be good practice for them.

 

Second, 5 mbit up on Charter isn't enough bandwidth to run the website you're talking about.  And for hosting Charter bandwidth is trash, very bad connectivity to other ISPs around the country compared to colo bandwidth at most locations.  Also, even on business accounts this is likely a TOS violation, unless the TOS for your County is different from here in middle TN.

 

Third, building a good server with proper backups and running it 24/7 is going to cost you more than finding a good host with better bandwidth.

 

Fourth, shared hosting is not virtual hosting in anyway shape or form...  and virtual hosting comes in all sorts of shapes, sizes, and price ranges...  Keep in mind virtually all of NetFlix is a bunch of Amazon Virtual Servers.

 

Finding good hosting for less than $10 a month should be no problem what so ever.  You're going to be hard pressed to do that at home between extra bandwidth costs and power costs...  let alone dealing with failed hard drives and other hardware issues.  Plus it's going to give your users a much better experience.

 

Lot of good ideas here. Figured I would follow up and say thanks. Problem I found was cost for dedicated hosting. Moving up to a business account on my current Broadband Provider and speaking with them on usage, this will not be an issue.

 

I was going with BSD since I actually trained on Unix, instead I am going with a Linux distro because of all of the options (And its also free, not to mention the security) and ease of use. For the web server I am going with Nginx.

 

I already have plenty of hardware, I will be using an extra NAT capable N Router coming in on a single high order port. Using a plain old dual core processor since a single would actually do it, later, (Not a lot later) Ill add a complete backup (Hardware and software) to the server in the event of failure.

 

I now know this is overkill, but would rather have more than not enough. Drivespace is a 3 TB WD Black Edition but I also added a 3TB Toshiba wireless drive for backup.

 

Considering the limited usage, everything will be more than enough and short of a Broadband outage I have total control over my site (Or will have). 

 

Im still making decisions. Like VM vs Physical Server, but considering if I wanted a VM (Like VirtualSphere) I could stick with shared hosting I am not looking in that direction too hard. 

 

This turned out to be a lot easier than I thought it would be.On top of that I am Beta testing (soon) the "next big thing" in Home networking that is supposed to launch next February, at the end of Beta I will get to keep it free like most of the other hardware I have Beta tested, if it works I plan on just adding it in because it will negate a lot of other hardware. 

 

Ill post a pic of my home based web server built out of spare parts and open source software when it is done. 

Edited February 21, 2014 by JayC

[tnguy]

It'd take a few hours reading and tweaking, but I'd say you could have a forum running from your house in about 2-4 hours if you went at it. But then you'd spend much more than that customizing it all. Unless you wanted to, you could technically get by without spending a single $ on software. You have the hardware, your only fixed cost would be ISP. You could cheat and use something like dyDNS, but you are correct that the right way to do it would be to pay for a business account.

 

Alternatively, an AWS server might work out cheaper than the difference between a home and Biz account. In fact, the t1,micro is free for the first year.

[MacGyver]

AWS is the way to go if you're interested in managing the box yourself.  It's cost effective.  They even have a free tier.

 

That said, if you've got questions about whether or not you've got the skills to self-host, semi-dedicated, managed hosting is cheaper than it's ever been.

[Guest TankerHC]

tnguy and McGyver, that did it. That was the solution I was originally looking for.

 

Going over "needs" vs ""wants" the free tier is more than enough for right now. This is only a family forum, I wanted to find enogh server space (Cost effective) for up to a thousand people. Looking, right now there is only 184. So for the short term (By short I am thinking 1-1 1/2 years) the 750 with 1000 original visit per month is more than enough for right now. And if it does end up with more than that, Ill just make it self supporting. For right now the price is exactly right....FREE.

 

Several members mentioned the TOS Violation, I had already discussed that with the appropriate people. It would not have been a TOS violation to do what I originally considered doing. I bought up a point in our conversation that IS a legitimate point. "In effect" just about anyone using a broadband provider with a wireless Router today can open a "website" through sharing in 5 minutes. All you have to do is attach a drive to your router, add or remove what you want to it, make it public or supply the ip address directing to the particular folder on that drive, and "in effect" you have created a locally managed website simply through "sharing".  Use PF Static for the ip address and use port forwarding. That is REALLY basic stuff.

 

Of course you could not do that with a site as massive as the TGO Forum. (Actually you could, but not without having it slow almost immediately to the point that no one could do anything), but it would not be a TOS violation. So how would hosting a site on a local server that was minimal and within the parameters that you pay for be a TOS violation? It wouldnt. At least not for what I was considering. Plus, it wouldnt really work anyway. Committing a  TOS violation while having a locally hosted site that doesnt work is sort of a moot point. Having worked in this industry (Broadband) in management and technically, I can tell you that "Officially" just about everyone is already violating their TOS. Having more than the allocated MAC addresses allowed (Devices) going through a single account is considered "High Use" and in violation of Accecptable use policies., in many cases a TOS violation, but they are impossible to monitor, but did not used to be. I can say this, just a few years ago, having a home network on a basic account was a TOS violation, and through some Broadband providers, "officially" still is. Have 2 or 3 streaming devices, and a couple of computers running? Officially you have violated most Broadband providers "High Volume" acceptable use policies.

 

My concern was the "How to" and "best way" and if there were less expensive hosting options. And EVERYONE's opinions, whether I agree with them or not, is certainly welcome, so thanks to everyone. But alll the answers lead me to some other questions. So while I am doing this Ill be asking questions (If you all dont mind)  because there is some software mentioned in this thread I am thinking about trying before deciding. (Not phpbb, or VB or any of the other Forum software, I'm very well aquanted with that and have 4 VB licenses so thats what I will be using).

 

So thanks again to all, and for the suggestion by McGyver and tnguy for that suggested solution. Free is always better.

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

I have had charter business for a few years an when I first started I had my own web servers.

 

Charter business  3 up an 20 down.

 

 

I run a p1 junk PC with 4 Ethernet cards an IPcop as the OS for a router/firewall

 

First network runs my normal internet usage.

 

2nd one is my P1 junk PC with Linux an Apache. This was my web server.

 

3ed network went to another P1 junk PC with Linux an a reverse proxie server program that I forget the name of. It has a second Ethernet card going out to a network full of IP web cameras.

 

This setup ran a basic site plus streaming 6 different standard def video feeds. It hit about 3K page views on a good day when all 6 video feeds were active. That had my upload going as fast as it could but not one complaint about connection issue. Was still watching netflix an surfing the net.

 

I shut down my web server now an host that off site. Just easier for me. The cameras are all unhooked at the moment to as I remodel my whole system.. The IPcop PC an the Proxie server PC are both still humming a way though.

 

 

Charter was informed what I was doing before I started without issue.

 

If you skip to the 2 minute mark on this video you can see what the end user was seeing threw this setup...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwB_e-nnP7M

[Guest TankerHC]

I have had charter business for a few years an when I first started I had my own web servers.

 

Charter business  3 up an 20 down.

 

 

I run a p1 junk PC with 4 Ethernet cards an IPcop as the OS for a router/firewall

 

First network runs my normal internet usage.

 

2nd one is my P1 junk PC with Linux an Apache. This was my web server.

 

3ed network went to another P1 junk PC with Linux an a reverse proxie server program that I forget the name of. It has a second Ethernet card going out to a network full of IP web cameras.

 

This setup ran a basic site plus streaming 6 different standard def video feeds. It hit about 3K page views on a good day when all 6 video feeds were active. That had my upload going as fast as it could but not one complaint about connection issue. Was still watching netflix an surfing the net.

 

I shut down my web server now an host that off site. Just easier for me. The cameras are all unhooked at the moment to as I remodel my whole system.. The IPcop PC an the Proxie server PC are both still humming a way though.

 

 

Charter was informed what I was doing before I started without issue.

 

If you skip to the 2 minute mark on this video you can see what the end user was seeing threw this setup...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwB_e-nnP7M

 

Switch your software to Mustang, add some dial-up modems and some stick men games and you would darn near have my 1990 BBS.