Hypothetical what if scenario

[Guest Cogent Design]

Terrible title. Sorry. I'll keep the story short. In my workplace, I have a guy who carries and has no sense of Operational Security. He talks about it all the time. I think that foolish, but whatever. Well, his sister who is 17 also works there and she told me she was carrying. I called her bluff, told her she wasn't, then told her it wasn't legal blah blah blah. Turns out she wasn't

This got me thinking, what would you all do if you encountered a minor carrying a firearm? Would it depend on which minor? Is it illegal to not say anything to law enforcement?

[satalac]

Are weapons even allowed at your workplace? And yes, I'd turn in a minor that is carrying. 

[JayC]

A minor carrying at work may very well be legal in TN.  39-17-1319d1F allows minors to carry firearms on real property with the permission of the controlling adult and the parents.

 

It is only illegal not to report a minor carrying a firearm if it's related to school grounds or school athletic buildings/events...  39-17-1312

 

It's also a crime to provide a handgun to a minor if they're going to carry it illegal 39-17-1320

 

So if she was carrying at work, it might or might not be illegal...  even if it was unless your work is at a school/school athletic building you'd be under no obligation to report it per the law. IANAL.

 

Terrible title. Sorry. I'll keep the story short. In my workplace, I have a guy who carries and has no sense of Operational Security. He talks about it all the time. I think that foolish, but whatever. Well, his sister who is 17 also works there and she told me she was carrying. I called her bluff, told her she wasn't, then told her it wasn't legal blah blah blah. Turns out she wasn't

This got me thinking, what would you all do if you encountered a minor carrying a firearm? Would it depend on which minor? Is it illegal to not say anything to law enforcement?

Edited January 16, 2014 by JayC

[Pcdokk]

For me, concealed means concealed. I don't openly promote the fact I am armed nor do not care to paint a bulls eye on my back. I carry for protection, not promotion or advertisement. Regarding an underage individual possessing a weapon I would certainly bring that to the proper authorities attention.

[nightrunner]

Depends on the maturity of the minor.

Some minors I know are more mature and safer with guns that some grown adults.

[owejia]

It is none of my business unless the minor is a threat to me. Don't ask, don't tell.

[79troublehead]

Sounds like a rough place to work.

[Oh Shoot]

A minor carrying at work may very well be legal in TN.  39-17-1319d1F allows minors to carry firearms on real property with the permission of the controlling adult and the parents.

 

It is only illegal not to report a minor carrying a firearm if it's related to school grounds or school athletic buildings/events...  39-17-1312

 

It's also a crime to provide a handgun to a minor if they're going to carry it illegal 39-17-1320

 

So if she was carrying at work, it might or might not be illegal...  even if it was unless your work is at a school/school athletic building you'd be under no obligation to report it per the law. IANAL.

 

It is also an exception to illegal carry if done at "the person's place of business", which AFAIK has never been clarified by case law or even AG opinion?

 

- OS

[JayC]

IANAL :)

 

39-17-1308 only provides defenses to violations of 39-17-1307...  Which covers adults carrying (among other things) handguns and long guns at their residence, property they own, and place of business...  and while we don't have an AG opinion on 39-17-1308 place of business provision is a fairly common legal term in both federal and state law and would cover most people who go to work and stay in a building all day, it doesn't require ownership or management responsibilities.

 

While 39-17-1308 covers minors carrying all firearms from being charged under 39-17-1307 it does not protect them from being charged under 39-17-1319, which only covers handguns carried by minors...  in order for a minor to carry a handgun they must fall under one of the 39-17-1319d1 defenses...  so there is a slightly more limited subset of cases where a minor may carry a loaded handgun vs where they can carry a loaded rifle or shotgun.

 

Now an interesting issue...  while I as an adult can't legally carry on your property (without a permit), a minor can...  because none of the 39-17-1308 defenses would cover me, but the 39-17-1319 defense would cover the minor.  Yet another perfect example of how poorly our gun laws are written.

 

It is also an exception to illegal carry if done at "the person's place of business", which AFAIK has never been clarified by case law or even AG opinion?

 

- OS

Edited January 16, 2014 by JayC

[Oh Shoot]

IANAL :)

 

39-17-1308 only provides defenses to violations of 39-17-1307...  Which covers adults carrying (among other things) handguns and long guns at their residence, property they own, and place of business...  and while we don't have an AG opinion on 39-17-1308 place of business provision is a fairly common legal term in both federal and state law and would cover most people who go to work and stay in a building all day, it doesn't require ownership or management responsibilities.

 

While 39-17-1308 covers minors carrying all firearms from being charged under 39-17-1307 it does not protect them from being charged under 39-17-1319, which only covers handguns carried by minors...  in order for a minor to carry a handgun they must fall under one of the 39-17-1319d1 defenses...  so there is a slightly more limited subset of cases where a minor may carry a loaded handgun vs where they can carry a loaded rifle or shotgun.

 

Now an interesting issue...  while I as an adult can't legally carry on your property (without a permit), a minor can...  because none of the 39-17-1308 defenses would cover me, but the 39-17-1319 defense would cover the minor.  Yet another perfect example of how poorly our gun laws are written.

 

I see no distinction in 1307 or 1308 between a minor and an adult. Neither word is mentioned at all.

 

- OS

[JayC]

Correct 39-17-1308 covers both minors and adults...  from charges under 39-17-1307...  it does not cover minors who have a handgun from charges under 39-17-1319.

 

I see no distinction in 1307 or 1308 between a minor and an adult. Neither word is mentioned at all.

 

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Correct 39-17-1308 covers both minors and adults...  from charges under 39-17-1307...  it does not cover minors who have a handgun from charges under 39-17-1319.

 

Gotcha.

 

OP, tell that gal to take the hunter safety course. :)

 

- OS

[Erik88]

Maybe she has permission? If she is safe and smart with it I really wouldn't care. I see no reason to report her and potentially ruin her life if arrested. 

[JayC]

Lot of grey area where her carrying at work could be perfectly legal...  unless there is an issue that poses a safety risk I wouldn't get involved...  and if I did get involved I'd talk to the manager/boss or her parents not law enforcement.

 

Maybe she has permission? If she is safe and smart with it I really wouldn't care. I see no reason to report her and potentially ruin her life if arrested. 

[nightrunner]

Quite frankly, I couldnt care if something is "illegal" or not. There are too many damn laws on the books now. If its unsafe I may report to whoever but not unless.

[Guest Cogent Design]

Quite thought provoking, eh? The policy manual says this: Use or possession of a firearm or any weapon on the premises including the parking areas, unless and only to the extent permitted otherwise by applicable state or local law.

Given this, a minor wouldn't be allowed to carry per the policy manual or state because she doesn't have permission to. I struggle with legalese, but I read that as I can.

[JayC]

How would she be violating company policy?  If she received permission to carry, then that would be within the "only to the extent permitted otherwise by applicable state or local law" exception in the handbook...  

 

How can you be sure she didn't get permission?  The way the state law is worded her direct supervisor/manager could say she can carry and it would be legal under state law. 

 

You mentioned her brother works there, and doesn't hide the fact he is pro-carry...  is there any chance he's her supervisor, or is buddies with her supervisor?

 

More over she'll turn 18 soon, she can change residence to South Dakota, get a carry permit from SD and carry here in TN 100% legally just like you do.

 

Personally, I'd encourage her to carry legally whenever possible...  I'd offer to help her learn how to properly handle and shoot any firearm she was going to legally carry...  Not looking for ways to get her into trouble.

 

At the end of the day, you were wrong to tell her carrying at 17 isn't legal...  it can be, and maybe even is in this case.

 

Quite thought provoking, eh? The policy manual says this: Use or possession of a firearm or any weapon on the premises including the parking areas, unless and only to the extent permitted otherwise by applicable state or local law.

Given this, a minor wouldn't be allowed to carry per the policy manual or state because she doesn't have permission to. I struggle with legalese, but I read that as I can.

Edited January 17, 2014 by JayC

[jeepguy12]

Everyone has the right to protect themselves. I'm not sure the 2nd Amendment only protected certain ages, guns, etc. The God given right to protect oneself being further protected by the 2nd Amendment seems to me that somewhere in the last 200 years someone decided to limit our rights. I fear in a decade or two our rights will be viewed just as extreme and will be restricted in the name of security and common sense solutions. I'm sure 100 years ago even 50 years ago a 17 year old could carry a gun and no one cared. In this situation I would probably tell her to not broadcast that to people, but I certainly wouldn't rat her out like she is a second class citizen. This isn't Germany is it? :usa: I might just be too far right in my opinion or at least that's what the media tells me. Night :snore:

[TapRackBang20]

Let's hold on before we start inferring things about the OP and everything that goes with referencing Germany on the internet....

 

Title clearly states "Hypothetical What If Scenario"...obviously wanted to know what most people would have done, didn't say he reported it or did anything besides talk to her. Frankly, I think it's a very thought provoking question. I had never heard anything about any TCA that allowed minors to conceal or carry on anything other than private property  (hat tip to JayC), so I've learned something. I would assume you'd see a minor being given permission to carry in a setting more like a family owned store (maybe a LGS) more than a traditional place of employment, which statistically is more likely of a place for the OP to work. As far as reporting her, for me personally I think it would depend on the person. I don't know if there is a legal obligation to report this type of potentially illegal activity (I would assume not), but assuming there isn't if the person is squared away i would probably let it slide with a warning that they should be more careful in regards to who knows about it and how they are about hiding it. We're all gun folks here and you can see the division. Imagine if the person who found out was ignorant about guns and the laws associated with them. I imagine it would cause quite a ruckus.

 

Just my $.02.

[gregintenn]

Unless I felt threatened by her for some reason, I'd prefer to take my chances with her rather than the "authorities" you suggest reporting her to.

 

I usually don't enjoy talking to someone with a badge pinned to them.

Edited January 19, 2014 by gregintenn

[45guy]

Unless I felt threatened by her for some reason, I'd prefer to take my chances with her rather than the "authorities" you suggest reporting her to.
 
I usually don't enjoy talking to someone with a badge pinned to them.

This^ +1

[Guest TresOsos]

I think I'd mind my own damn business.

[KKing]

[quote name="TresOsos" post="1097714" timestamp="1390152353"]I think I'd mind my own damn business.[/quote] I think I'm with him. Unless she poses a threat, every good person with a gun the better IMO. Our 2A mentions nothing about being over age 21 to bear arms

[bersaguy]

I would for the most part mind my own business also. The only real issue is that she is bragging about being armed when in fact she is not. That alone raises red flags. That is why I would never report a minor that says they have a gun on them because you report it and it turns out he/she does not have one, that could come back to bite me.....................jmho

[mikegideon]

Unless I felt threatened by her for some reason, I'd prefer to take my chances with her rather than the "authorities" you suggest reporting her to.

 

I usually don't enjoy talking to someone with a badge pinned to them.

 

Really? :)