I'm tired of it, sick and tired

[RobertNashville]

...My comments are directed at US. WE can be our own worst enemies when we bash somebody for open carrying. Whether we agree with it or not for tactical reasons, we should support anyone who carries, period. Not open carries, not concealed carries, but just plain carries. Other than "he who shall not be named" and his ilk, every single person who exercises their God-given right to carry a firearm to protect themselves and their loved ones and does so responsibly should receive 100% unabashed support from every single one of us.

 

And those who open carry for the purpose of causing an incident or do so without regard for where/when they will be are also our own worst enemies.

I don't have a problem with those who chose to open carry but I do and will continue to have a problem with those who carry to:

 

• Make a "statement",
• In hopes of making one of those "bed wetters" you mentioned, overact and call 9-1-1, or
• Who cause a bed wetter/9-1-1 incident (even if that was not their intent) and THEN act all surprised/get bent out of shape because the LEO comes and investigates.

 

There is nothing noble...nothing to be celebrated when carrying openly causes a problem. We can bemoan the fact that the "bed wetters" are bed wetters but complaining about it will never solve the problem.

[leroy]

Lager... I understand the concern and the wish to stand with like-minded brothers and sisters, and i full well understand that urge to help advance the reclaiming of our God Given freedoms here in this country as well... I believe that it is a laudable goal and that all responsible citizens should engage in this work... Havin said all that; i would offer this bit of perspective on this whole issue...

 

Everyone tends to index his memory based on when they start looking into or get active in any issue... I'm old enough to remember when the passing out of handgun permits was handled at the whim and discretion of the sheriff of the individual county sheriff or (...in some states...) the local chief of police...

 

All this was done in spite of the fact that the Second Amendment was in place... The State of Tennessee (...as did most other states....) had a Reconstruction Era statute that effectively said that:"... the state will regulate the wearing of arms with an eye to keeping the peace...".   That statute wuz baloney; because it was put in place by the ruling political class at that particular time to, in fact, disarm certain of the individual states citizens who had been on the "wrong side of the civil war" or who were political rivals... That amendment to each state's individual constitution(s) was a clear usurping of the original intent of the Second Amendment; and there was no one at that time who did not know that; but that was the mood of Reconstruction politics...

 

That statute was amended in the eighties and effectively replaced by a "Shall Issue" provision that states, in effect, that the state must issue permits to ANY CITIZEN who is lawfully eligible to lawfully own a firearm... The reason that the "shall issue" legislation was passed in this state and a bunch of others is because like-minded citizens and the NRA successfully campaigned on them... It effectively took the issuance of permits from the hands of an elite local political class (...in many instances...) and made the application and issue process a non-political issue... That was real progress in moving back toward the true intent of the Second Amendment as written in the Bill of Rights (...i think, anyway...)...

 

There were (...and still are, for that matter...) many in the political class who didn't like this idea; but they had to swallow that particular pill and honor it in order to stay in office... The fact is that the best possible medicine that we gun owners can give any political class operative is a good dose of fear that he (...she, or it...) will be swiftly voted out of office if they don't honor the spirit of the Second Amendment or all the others that we hold dear for that matter...   This approach works no matter what you believe as to concealed carry, open carry, knife rights, on and on... Look at what is going on in Colorado...

 

I firmly believe that there is a resurgence of a powerful populist movement throughout this country of like minded citizens that believe that the plain reading of the Constitution is, in fact, the law of the land... I believe that the likelihood of any politician or group of politicians taking any constitutional right away from the citizenry is miniscule due to this resurgence; except in the traditionally blue "Boss Tweed" fiefdoms, that is; and they are even loosing in court... Look at what happened in Illinois the other day with the Chicago thing... Even the hippies like Hickenlooper are loosin in Colorado; and i predict that the clowns in Kalefornia will soon suffer the same fate....

 

People are more informed (...and educated...) today than ever before in the history of this country... They are also "edgy" and for good reason; they are thinkin (...and rightly so, i think...) that "government" is a very potentially malevolent force and that it just may be in the business of limiting rights; not ensuring them...They are also tired of the fiefdoms that used to rule most everywhere... Those fiefdoms are even crumbling in blue places like New York state where you have sheriffs and chiefs of police who are givin the single finger salute to the state government sayin they will not enforce the New York SAFE act... These sorts of things have never happened before in my lifetime and im a semi-old geezer...

 

To summarize this little rambling; i'm not afraid that any politician (...state or federal...) is gonna take any thing away from me other than my money; because that is the nature of government....  We already have the right to bear arms via the Second Amendment... We need to go about our business exercising this right and act responsibly concerning it... We need to vote out any politician that doesn't see things in clear constitutional terms... period... If we do that, we have noting to fear concerning the "loss of rights"....

 

On a personal basis, i trust no politician; no matter the political stripe... I watch 'em and reward good behavior and punish bad behavior with my dollars, my affiliations (...think NRA, PACs, or other "gun rights" organizations here...) and my vote... The thing is to keep politicians afraid of the citizenry, not the reverse... In my mind, when we do these things, we are standing together as gun owners and responsible citizens...

 

leroy

Edited January 21, 2014 by leroy

[Fallguy]

"I support the second amendment but..." "I think we should have the right to carry but I don't think you should open carry, open carrying is asking for trouble" To these folks, I say screw you and the horse you rode in on. I'm tired of "2A supporters" who generalize everyone who open carries simply because it isn't your style. No, everyone who open carries isn't looking for attention anymore than a person that wears a wrist watch opposed to a pocket watch is looking for attention. Are there exceptions? Of course. Like with anything, there will be exceptions. But damn you if you can claim yourself to be a second amendment supporter then talk down about open carrying. I do it on occasion, simply because it's much more comfortable. If you don't like to open carry, don't. It's very simple how that works. I'm tired if those naysayers who are far too afraid of spooking the sheep to open carry, so they point fingers at those who do. I may not like the way you do things, but I'll support your right to do it , and I'll stand against anyone that tries to take that away. If you can't say the same then please, stop claiming to fight the same fight I'm sorry, but as a firearms community, we have to do better. I personally don't care if you wear your firearm on the side of your head with a custom pink leather holster, I'll support your right to do so. I may think you're a bit goofy, but I'm still beside you. This isn't a concealed vs. open carry argument. This is a standing up for OUR rights argument, there's no room for us to be divided, there's no room for "buts". I see it far too often from supposed "2A supporters", even on this board. If any of this made any sense, good. If not, then I apologize. I was in full rage mode after reading some comments about an open carrier being hassled by an idiot leo and yes, I feel better now

 

I didn't read every post, but I did read enough to see what I've always said.  

 

The Anti-OC crowd among those that carry (or are Pro-2A) is 1000 time worse toward OC than any Anti-gun group is toward firearms in general.

[bersaguy]

Well, I have my own opinion about open carry but I won't judge anyone on their decision either way. It is their right either way. My self, I never carry open except in my own yard. I have always thought if I were to ever be in a situation of a robbery taking place, if the robber enters the place and does walk through to see if he can find any guns he may have to deal with I don't want to be his first target when he makes his move. An open carry person may very well get shot in the back of the head to eliminate the threat before he makes his move to rob the location. I would rather be the guy that may be the person that prevents folks from getting hurt by taking the perp down before he can hurt someone but that is my opinion. Like I said the OC CC is up to the individual and not up to me to judge.................jmho 

[Fallguy]

Well, I have my own opinion about open carry but I won't judge anyone on their decision either way. It is their right either way. My self, I never carry open except in my own yard. I have always thought if I were to ever be in a situation of a robbery taking place, if the robber enters the place and does walk through to see if he can find any guns he may have to deal with I don't want to be his first target when he makes his move. An open carry person may very well get shot in the back of the head to eliminate the threat before he makes his move to rob the location. I would rather be the guy that may be the person that prevents folks from getting hurt by taking the perp down before he can hurt someone but that is my opinion. Like I said the OC CC is up to the individual and not up to me to judge.................jmho 

 

It is also possible if the perp sees an openly carried firearm he may choose to find a different place to rob.  That person OCing has also prevented anyone from getting hurt.

 

Either situation is possible and why it is a choice for the individual to make.

[bersaguy]

It is also possible if the perp sees an openly carried firearm he may choose to find a different place to rob.  That person OCing has also prevented anyone from getting hurt.

 

Either situation is possible and why it is a choice for the individual to make.

 

I won't argue that fact because there is a good chance the perp might just move on but I'm just not willing to OC and find out............jmho

[RobertNashville]

I didn't read every post, but I did read enough to see what I've always said.  

 

The Anti-OC crowd among those that carry (or are Pro-2A) is 1000 time worse toward OC than any Anti-gun group is toward firearms in general.

Really? So being opposed to open carry or at least opposed to open carry based on where and when someone is supposed be is worse than anti-gun groups who want to destroy all civilian owned firearms. LOL

[Fallguy]

Really? So being opposed to open carry or at least opposed to open carry based on where and when someone is supposed be is worse than anti-gun groups who want to destroy all civilian owned firearms. LOL

 

I meant worse in the sense of passion, vocalization, emotional vs logical arguments etc.... 

Edited January 22, 2014 by Fallguy

[daddyo]

I tell people "I discourage open carry".

But seriously, I just don't think it's a good idea. Besides making people around you nervous (and it does, even if they don't say anything), it lets everyone around you know that you have a gun. I don't want the bad guys to know I'm carrying.

I saw a guy OCing at a Kohl's one day. Didn't make me nervous at all. The store was very busy and either no one noticed or they just didn't care. The guy wasn't dressed weird and was very pleasant and cordial to the CS person who was helping him, so obviously how you carry yourself and your general demeanor goes a long way towards how you are perceived. If OC were more commonplace I would do it myself.

[RobertNashville]

I meant worse in the sense of passion, vocalization, emotional vs logical arguments etc.... 

Perhaps but where I see the emotion and passion is in regards to those who's choice of carry method causes a problem; most especially those who do it for the purpose of causing a problem.

[tnguy]

If OC were more commonplace I would do it myself.

 

Arguably that's the argument on the side of OC. By doing it, it helps make it more acceptable. There are times and places, however.

[daddyo]

There are times and places, however.

 

Who gets to decide?

[mikegideon]

Who gets to decide?

 

The Po-lice :)

[Fallguy]

The Po-lice :)

 

Assuming they follow the law that is anywhere where carry itself is legal

[RobertNashville]

Assuming they follow the law that is anywhere where carry itself is legal

Except one should neither be surprised nor take umbrage if someone calls 9-1-1 to report a "man with a gun" and the police do their duty by responding and investigating. If, during their investigation, a citizen's rights are violated that is a matter for the courts yet it often seems as if the person being investigated want to argue the Constitution on the sidewalk. :shake:

[1pointofview]

I was having a forum discussion on my college football board about this. Mississippi allows open carry for folks 21 and up. The discussion was, the person was asking should he just open carry or get a permit. I told him to get a permit. Mostly because open carry today just gets so many peoplz panties in a wad. Then came the "i own guns and i support the 2nd " people who said they just dont like fools running round like rednecks shooting up the place.

When i hear that i get so pissd off. Yes, there are stupid people and yes there will be issues. But at the end of the day, when cars cause more deaths than guns, why do we have to discuss that a constitutional right can keep people from owning a gun but the same person could continue to drive a car? Cars cause more deaths and more people monetary loss than guns ever can, but the media's narrative paints gun owners as twitchy eyed lunatics just waiting for a reason to get liquored up so they can go on a shootin spreee. How is this any less bigoted than the news spraying headlines that so and so did such and such because they feared the black person was going to do something just cause he had a hoodie? Sick of it

[bersaguy]

Now in all honesty it may just be me but I really don't see al that many people OC'ing or I am just not paying attention. The few I have seen looked very proper in the way they represented them selves and we all polite. I have seem many more people that print than I have that open carry. I carry concealed all the time and do my best not to print but that is just me.

[tnguy]

Who gets to decide?

 

You do.

 

If you do it where it's less likely to cause an issue, it moves things that way -->

 

If you do it where you get a bunch of people upset, it moves things this way <--

 

The more things move that way --> , the more places there will be you can do it and not get people upset.

 

If things move too far this way <--, ####ty laws get passed.

Edited January 22, 2014 by tnguy

[homeagain]

Sometimes I don't even notice the gun on the hip, but it depends on who I reckon.

 

Didn't even notice: [url=http://postimage.org/][/url]

Edited January 22, 2014 by homeagain

[mikegideon]

Assuming they follow the law that is anywhere where carry itself is legal

 

And they can choose to ignore you, or check your prostate :)

[mikegideon]

Sometimes I don't even notice the gun on the hip, but it depends on who I reckon.

 

Didn't even notice:

 

:up:  I love this country :)

[LagerHead]

And those who open carry for the purpose of causing an incident or do so without regard for where/when they will be are also our own worst enemies.

I don't have a problem with those who chose to open carry but I do and will continue to have a problem with those who carry to:

 

• Make a "statement",
• In hopes of making one of those "bed wetters" you mentioned, overact and call 9-1-1, or
• Who cause a bed wetter/9-1-1 incident (even if that was not their intent) and THEN act all surprised/get bent out of shape because the LEO comes and investigates.

 

There is nothing noble...nothing to be celebrated when carrying openly causes a problem. We can bemoan the fact that the "bed wetters" are bed wetters but complaining about it will never solve the problem.

 

It's not our problem to solve. All I want is to be left alone. Sometimes that is asking too much.

 

Lager... I understand the concern and the wish to stand with like-minded brothers and sisters, and i full well understand that urge to help advance the reclaiming of our God Given freedoms here in this country as well... I believe that it is a laudable goal and that all responsible citizens should engage in this work... Havin said all that; i would offer this bit of perspective on this whole issue...

 

Everyone tends to index his memory based on when they start looking into or get active in any issue... I'm old enough to remember when the passing out of handgun permits was handled at the whim and discretion of the sheriff of the individual county sheriff or (...in some states...) the local chief of police...

 

All this was done in spite of the fact that the Second Amendment was in place... The State of Tennessee (...as did most other states....) had a Reconstruction Era statute that effectively said that:"... the state will regulate the wearing of arms with an eye to keeping the peace...".   That statute wuz baloney; because it was put in place by the ruling political class at that particular time to, in fact, disarm certain of the individual states citizens who had been on the "wrong side of the civil war" or who were political rivals... That amendment to each state's individual constitution(s) was a clear usurping of the original intent of the Second Amendment; and there was no one at that time who did not know that; but that was the mood of Reconstruction politics...

 

That statute was amended in the eighties and effectively replaced by a "Shall Issue" provision that states, in effect, that the state must issue permits to ANY CITIZEN who is lawfully eligible to lawfully own a firearm... The reason that the "shall issue" legislation was passed in this state and a bunch of others is because like-minded citizens and the NRA successfully campaigned on them... It effectively took the issuance of permits from the hands of an elite local political class (...in many instances...) and made the application and issue process a non-political issue... That was real progress in moving back toward the true intent of the Second Amendment as written in the Bill of Rights (...i think, anyway...)...

 

There were (...and still are, for that matter...) many in the political class who didn't like this idea; but they had to swallow that particular pill and honor it in order to stay in office... The fact is that the best possible medicine that we gun owners can give any political class operative is a good dose of fear that he (...she, or it...) will be swiftly voted out of office if they don't honor the spirit of the Second Amendment or all the others that we hold dear for that matter...   This approach works no matter what you believe as to concealed carry, open carry, knife rights, on and on... Look at what is going on in Colorado...

 

I firmly believe that there is a resurgence of a powerful populist movement throughout this country of like minded citizens that believe that the plain reading of the Constitution is, in fact, the law of the land... I believe that the likelihood of any politician or group of politicians taking any constitutional right away from the citizenry is miniscule due to this resurgence; except in the traditionally blue "Boss Tweed" fiefdoms, that is; and they are even loosing in court... Look at what happened in Illinois the other day with the Chicago thing... Even the hippies like Hickenlooper are loosin in Colorado; and i predict that the clowns in Kalefornia will soon suffer the same fate....

 

People are more informed (...and educated...) today than ever before in the history of this country... They are also "edgy" and for good reason; they are thinkin (...and rightly so, i think...) that "government" is a very potentially malevolent force and that it just may be in the business of limiting rights; not ensuring them...They are also tired of the fiefdoms that used to rule most everywhere... Those fiefdoms are even crumbling in blue places like New York state where you have sheriffs and chiefs of police who are givin the single finger salute to the state government sayin they will not enforce the New York SAFE act... These sorts of things have never happened before in my lifetime and im a semi-old geezer...

 

To summarize this little rambling; i'm not afraid that any politician (...state or federal...) is gonna take any thing away from me other than my money; because that is the nature of government....  We already have the right to bear arms via the Second Amendment... We need to go about our business exercising this right and act responsibly concerning it... We need to vote out any politician that doesn't see things in clear constitutional terms... period... If we do that, we have noting to fear concerning the "loss of rights"....

 

On a personal basis, i trust no politician; no matter the political stripe... I watch 'em and reward good behavior and punish bad behavior with my dollars, my affiliations (...think NRA, PACs, or other "gun rights" organizations here...) and my vote... The thing is to keep politicians afraid of the citizenry, not the reverse... In my mind, when we do these things, we are standing together as gun owners and responsible citizens...

 

leroy

 

I hope you're right about the populist movement(s) in this country. Unfortunately I am not optimistic. If the Supreme Court can uphold something that is so obviously unconstitutional as Obamacare, then there is really no reason to think they won't just as readily take away any of our other rights if someone is available to present a convincing enough argument. 

 

I am happy though that we have seen a resurgence in our 2nd Amendment rights. That tempers some of my pessimism. You don't really have to be that old to remember the "may issue" days. Most of the country was that way into the early 90s. It seems we gain ground in some areas and lose it in others. 

[DaveTN]

Assuming they follow the law that is anywhere where carry itself is legal

Carry is illegal in the entire state.

[RobertNashville]

It's not our problem to solve. All I want is to be left alone. Sometimes that is asking too much.

 

Well, in every OC/CC thread I've ever read those who insist on open carry will say that they have to get people used to it which indicates to me that the fact that people aren't "used to it" is a "problem" they believe they need to solve. That's the "problem" I'm referring to. :shrug:

Edited January 23, 2014 by RobertNashville

[Fallguy]

Except one should neither be surprised nor take umbrage if someone calls 9-1-1 to report a "man with a gun" and the police do their duty by responding and investigating. If, during their investigation, a citizen's rights are violated that is a matter for the courts yet it often seems as if the person being investigated want to argue the Constitution on the sidewalk. :shake:

The cops have a duty to investigate crimes. In states where OC is legal without a permit someone OCIng does not give a LEO PC or RAS to have anything beyond a voluntary encounter with the person.

In TN someone OCing should not have a problem with a LEO requesting to see their HCP