IDPA - Will It Get You Killed?

[Guest nraforlife]

Forget the goats. Putting frogs on a skeet thrower is alot of fun.

No need to bring the frickin French into this....

[Daniel]

]

There is a reason why combat troops briefing an Operations Order will include: map recons, build sand tables, conduct dry runs, and practice battle drills; To take as many unknown elements out of the equation as possible.

Practice doesnt really make perfect, but in total chaos, it sure makes for a better day if you have some sort of plan going in.

aint that the truth.

ive built so many houses with engineer tapes its ridiculous.

[DMark]

..... ive built so many houses with engineer tapes its ridiculous.

Dang that is a flashback.

Once had a great soldier tell me that the US Army couldn't fight a war without engineer tape as he stuffed a roll of it into his D-Bag.

Back on Topic. IDPA will get you killed if you don't understand that its a game and not training.

[Guest nraforlife]

... Back on Topic. IDPA will get you killed if you don't understand that its a game and not training.

What will really get you killed is not having a gun.

[Schadenfreude]

I realize that this thread has already lost most of its steam, but I think anyone who carries should shoot at least one idpa match, it really gets the adrenaline flowing. I'll admit probably not as much as being shot at by a bad guy etc. but it will test your mind & your equipment. Your #1 defensive tool is your brain #2 might be your gun. An idpa match will test both – if your gun can’t get through an idpa match without giving you trouble then – you better learn malfunction clearances by heart, which you should know anyway because Murphy will always be there when you least expect him! & Maybe that gun isn’t the one you should be carrying if it constantly fails to function – every gun can & will malfunction I have seen 1911’s, glocks, smiths, Beretta’s & even revolvers have malfunctions even if the gun doesn’t the ammo might – you need to know how to deal with it. Before I started shooting IDPA & going to training classes I knew that if I had a malfunction in a situation I was going to throw the weapon at the B.G. & run like he**. I don’t think that would even cross my mind now.

At my first match I was shaking like a pup sh*tting peach seeds now it’s just fun, its not defensive training but you will learn a thing or twelve about yourself & yours & other peoples equipment.

[Guest Centennial]

Good post Randy. You have presented the pro/con issues of IDPA competition accurately and fairly.

[wjh2657]

Personal feeling: any kind of activity that lets you handle your weapon with live ammo is worth the time, just to get you familiar with gun to the point you don't have to think about how to operate it.

A few thoughts about real SD scenarios:

I am not going to rescue hostages. Too old for Delta Force. As a civilian I don't really believe I have the authority or legal right to get into this business anyways.

I am not going to take long range shots (long range is anything over 7 yards) as I am no longer a sniper (was once) and again if they are that far away, don't think it's going to fly as a SD in court!

Its going to happen real fast and I don't think any training is going to really prepare or spoil me for shooting at a cursing, screaming. rushing target at 10-15 feet in a parking lot or my living room. Familiarity with the weapon is again going to be the key. Tactics just went South!

I am not going to confuse any of my training with what is now happening. I am going to be scared s---less and I am going to empty 5 .38s into COM as best I can, and pray the SOB goes down.

I am not an LEO, I'm a little old man with a gun, and I don't get enough of any training to screw up my tactical mindset or develop bad habits. Again any shooting I can get in to make me feel comfortable with a gun is going to help, not hinder me. If you can do it and have fun too, go for it!

If it is a real SD incident, which means you are jumped in a surprise move, you don't have times to make mistakes in your OPPLAN, because there is no freaking OPPLAN!

Draw, Point, Shoot, again and again, and pray the attacker goes down. Everything else is SWAT and Delta Force.

This is mainly a SD forum and I'll bet that 95% of the real situations most of the guys here will ever have to face will be just as above. I spent 30 years in the USMC, lot's of that in combat, and all I want now is to be left alone. The CCW is for people who can't do that to the point of endangering me.

Ranting and ravings of an elderly, opinionated, retired Master Gunnery Sergeant of Marines. That doesn't make me an expert but it does make me dangerous!

[Oh Shoot]

...

A few thoughts about real SD scenarios: <etc>...

Great post, methinks. Thanks.

I wasn't in Nam (got out by trying to enlist, long story) and yet, I've had to show a gun three times in my life, but not shoot.

Two of the times were really my fault for even having to do so, as I had unwisely put myself into untenable situations in my younger and significantly wilder days.

Once, though, I was on my own acreage and guiltless of fomenting the situation. Perhaps "Union County" might be enough to explain

And I'll state for the record that had I been unarmed, there was a better than even chance that any of those three encounters would have been adios muchacho for ole OhShoot. It's also an interesting observation, though, that the showing of the gun defused (or maybe better word, stalemated) the situation rather than escalated it.

None of these were the split second SHTF shooting situation you postulate, but certainly my physiological responses were purt near as close to pegging out as if the shootin had started. And I know I was both tactically and psychologically unprepared to better my odds had one of these gone way south.

So I tend to agree that at least a modicum of some kind of "get off the x and shoot" drilling could only help benefit one's senses and responses to a possible time when the nitty meets the gritty.

And sure, the odds of that happening are miniscule for most all of us, even for me as I slip into a much tamer geezerhood, but as you say, if it's something you enjoy, then where's the downside?

- OS

[Guest DaG]

I think Randy has a great point. I play both games but if I had to pick it would be USPSA. My reasoning is simple. In IDPA, you are told how to how to shoot a scenario. In an actual situatuion, are you going to have someone behind you telling you what to do? In USPSA, the scenario is freestyle. Yes, it's about speed. No, you don't have to have a race gun to compete. I shoot factory CZ's and Glocks. The game is about shooting at high speed accurately and solving the shooting problem in the shortest amount of time which would hopefully translate to a situation if need be. Shoot'em as you see'um any way you want to. To me, this would relate to a situation better as there is alot more transitions, movement, tough shots, etc. I'm not bashing, don't get me wrong. Would you really in a fight try to tac load or perform a reload with retention? Hell no! Not me. While you're fumbling because you have been ingrained with an IDPA reload someone could be advancing on you. I shot the GA State IDPA match this weeken with a local shooter who is sponsored by Smith and Wesson. His IDPA reloads are around 2.5 seconds. Now, most of us are gonna be in the 3.5 second range or longer. His USPSA reloads are 9/10ths shot to shot from Kydex kolster and pouches. Guess how muich ground someone can cover coming at you in 3.5 seconds. A step is 2/10ths of a second. Do the math. Get the mag out of the gun,let it go, and re-load if the fight lasts that long. Seriously, I've seen guys that stress out when the SO is yelling cover and fumble and drop mags, get nervous and have an AD. Again, I'm not bashing IDPA as I play the game. I just think that a person would be better off playing USPSA as far as gun handling skills and freestyle thinking are concerned. YMMV

DaG

[deerslayer]

I think Randy has a great point. I play both games but if I had to pick it would be USPSA. My reasoning is simple. In IDPA, you are told how to how to shoot a scenario. In an actual situatuion, are you going to have someone behind you telling you what to do? In USPSA, the scenario is freestyle. Yes, it's about speed. No, you don't have to have a race gun to compete. I shoot factory CZ's and Glocks. The game is about shooting at high speed accurately and solving the shooting problem in the shortest amount of time which would hopefully translate to a situation if need be. Shoot'em as you see'um any way you want to. To me, this would relate to a situation better as there is alot more transitions, movement, tough shots, etc. I'm not bashing, don't get me wrong. Would you really in a fight try to tac load or perform a reload with retention? Hell no! Not me. While you're fumbling because you have been ingrained with an IDPA reload someone could be advancing on you. I shot the GA State IDPA match this weeken with a local shooter who is sponsored by Smith and Wesson. His IDPA reloads are around 2.5 seconds. Now, most of us are gonna be in the 3.5 second range or longer. His USPSA reloads are 9/10ths shot to shot from Kydex kolster and pouches. Guess how muich ground someone can cover coming at you in 3.5 seconds. A step is 2/10ths of a second. Do the math. Get the mag out of the gun,let it go, and re-load if the fight lasts that long. Seriously, I've seen guys that stress out when the SO is yelling cover and fumble and drop mags, get nervous and have an AD. Again, I'm not bashing IDPA as I play the game. I just think that a person would be better off playing USPSA as far as gun handling skills and freestyle thinking are concerned. YMMV

DaG

IDPA stages are limited only by the imagination of the guy who sets up the stage. Many of our stages offer the shooter several choices and options on how to solve the stage. Every once in a while, after watching somebody else shoot a stage, I smack myself in the forehead and think, "Why didn't I think of that?" I agree with you, I sometimes get tired of the stages where everyone does exactly the same thing. We don't have as many of these of some, though.

[DaveTN]

-Keep in mind (in the real world) that if you can see the target, the target can see you and is equally armed.

With my experience being the streets and not the battlefield; this is the biggest problem I see in training.

In our discussions here it is usually assumed that the HCP holder or the armed homeowner, being on the right side of the law and living at the foot of the cross will be the victor. Then it’s usually discussion about what the cops are going to do to them or what will a civil jury rule.

I can’t remember personally responding to an armed encounter where the bad guy was down and shot at the scene by the good guy and can only remember hearing one over the radio. But I can remember vividly a couple of home invasions that I worked where the armed home owners were still at the scene, disarmed and beaten or dead.

It is not unusual for bad guys to be better trained or have more weapons handling experience that the average citizen or HCP holder.

I think IDPA is a game. But if a player doesn’t get anything else out of it they will get weapons handling experience out of it. Will they get experience anywhere close to the adrenalin rush of a real armed encounter? No, but it’s better than standing still at the 7 yard line of the local range, using sights on your handgun and calling it training. Will it get them killed? Certainly not as quick as complacency.

I think it’s sad that training costs are so ridiculously expensive that most don’t attend. I think in a state that issues carry permits local PD’s should offer training free or at a reasonable cost. Maybe that’s later down the road when some Chiefs or Sheriffs with some vision decided to help.

[Guest Grout]

Will IPSC,USPSA,and today IDPA shooting get you killed?. Tune in next week boys and girls when we debate 9mm vs .45 ACP.Sounds like somebody found a stack of American Handgunner magazines from the 1980s.

[BimmerFreak]

Will IPSC,USPSA,and today IDPA shooting get you killed?. Tune in next week boys and girls when we debate 9mm vs .45 ACP.Sounds like somebody found a stack of American Handgunner magazines from the 1980s.

Did you hear that some LE departments are looking at turning their revolvers in for a foreign made all plastic gun that can defeat metal detectors?

[deerslayer]

Did you hear that some LE departments are looking at turning their revolvers in for a foreign made all plastic gun that can defeat metal detectors?

Not a problem, as long as they have fully supported chambers...

[MrNobody]

I'd just like to try it and I can't see how putting rounds on target could hurt you.

[EMTRN]

Did you hear that some LE departments are looking at turning their revolvers in for a foreign made all plastic gun that can defeat metal detectors?

That's crazy talk!

[et45]

Will IPSC,USPSA,and today IDPA shooting get you killed?. Tune in next week boys and girls when we debate 9mm vs .45 ACP.Sounds like somebody found a stack of American Handgunner magazines from the 1980s.

Probably bought them at the Chattanooga Rifle Club Trade Day.

[rd97]

I think any program that helps you draw under pressure and shoot accuartely is a good thing. I'm slow but I think IDPA helps me to be more effective.

[dunndw]

I've taken several training classes. Their teaching is sometimes against the IDPA grain, sometimes not.

One thing I've noticed is my IDPA reloads are faster, done from cover and ...I noticed Sunday during a couple of stages I was scanning for threats once I finished the stage.

[Guest TheBulldog]

I've taken several training classes. Their teaching is sometimes against the IDPA grain, sometimes not.

One thing I've noticed is my IDPA reloads are faster, done from cover and ...I noticed Sunday during a couple of stages I was scanning for threats once I finished the stage.

Nothing better than some nice friendly practice to hone your muscle memory!

[Guest killemducks]

I am liking what Ohshoot, wjh2657, and God rest his soul, Marswolf are saying on the subject. They have been around the block a few times (said with the utmost respect) and what they said really makes sense to me. I'm thinking the only benefit of games like these is total and utter familiarity with your gun, which can only be good.

Being aware of surroundings and doing every thing to avoid a confrontation that is possible is a WHOLE other part of staying alive and not dying.

[Angus]

practice, practice, practice...then....practice some more.

I don't shoot IDPA or anything yet, but would like to. One of the best thing I did was to buy a cheap holster and snapcaps.

The cheap holster taught me that cheap holsters suck, and are only good to keep your gun from being scratched up while in the safe.

Snapcaps, as you may already know, made me alot more familliar with my pistol, the trigger pull, how I hold the weapon, how to stop pulling my wrist, work on using the speed loaders, etc..

[deerslayer]

Yes, IDPA has some techniques and rules that you would probably never use in real life. However, that does not mean that IDPA shooters can't hold their own in the real world. I look at it like this. MMA fighters compete in a controlled enviroment with a set of rules and a referee. They use a lot of moves that they would never attempt in a fight in a Wal-Mart parking lot, or in their driveway. Against two thugs, they probably would not try to armbar one, because thug #2 would stab the MMA fighter in the back or rape his gal while he was rolling on the ground with thug#1. However, a good MMA fighter could still ruin two thugs' afternoon. Many IDPA shooters are the same.

[Guest Grout]

I shot IPSC and later IDPA for a long time,and have carried a gun even longer.Never have I considered shooting those matches training.They were a chance to have fun and be around other shooters to exchange ideas.Most of the drills and tactics I use in my personal training would never be allowed in a match.Both sports have equipment rules depending on the division that would hinder performance in a self defense shooting.My take is shoot one or both sports if you want but do not make that your self defense training and your "gun familiarity".If you want to strive to be a "Grand Master" go for it.Just don't forget to strive to be a "Surviver" as well.

[Rock.45]

Has anyone shot Polite Society , a tactically correct venue ?