IDPA - Will It Get You Killed?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

IDPA - Will It Get You Killed?

Randy Harris - Suarez International Staff Instructor

There are many shooters who participate in shooting sports like IPSC or IDPA. In these sports the shooters engage a wide array of targets in little scenarios that often require drawing from a holster, movement, target discrimination, reloading, accurate shooting under time constraint and sometimes malfunction clearance. These are all good skills to work on if we also carry a gun for personal protection. Of course it is not training but it is good practice. But there are those that argue that participating in IDPA or other action shooting sports will build bad habits and can even get you killed. Let's look at that for a minute.

The issues that people have are typically with use of cover, IDPA style reloads, only allowing 11 rounds in the gun in the "hi cap" categories, and the proactive nature of IDPA. The arguments ostensibly stem from people not wanting to ingrain habits that are not tactically sound. Ok fine. That is a laudable pursuit. The problem is that I think people sometimes do not look at context of the problem or the big picture or understand that there is a way to play the game and still be competitive and still work on skills that are real world useful in a real confrontation. I also honestly think some naysayers run down IDPA because they don't perform well at it. Lets look at some of the arguments.

USE OF COVER: In IDPA, per the rules, you must use cover if available. And by using cover they want at least 50% of your body behind cover. The "gamesman" side of the equation stretch this to the limit exposing far more of themselves than they probably would want to in a real fight when rounds might be flying in both directions.

But in IDPA the whole time you are shooting the timer is running and the winner is the one with the lowest time adjusted for score on targets. So the "gamesmen" get just enough of themselves behind cover to not be penalized and then shoot very fast. The "Tactical" side though often hunker down behind cover and engage targets VERY slowly. They argue that they expose much less of themself and thereby are doing it "right". They argue that doing it fast without getting 99% behind cover will get you killed. Maybe they have an argument, but not always a well thought out one....and not one that always applies.

RELOADS: The reload argument comes from the "IDPA approved " reloads in the rule book. We have a slidelock reload, that is your gun has been shot to slidelock. We have a tactical reload . This is the classic reload during a so-called "lull in the action" where you save the rounds from the partially depleted mag by first inserting the new mag then stowing the old one. And then finally there is the reload with retention. Here you stow the old mag first and then insert the new.

Any time the gun is reloaded and there are still rounds left in the old mag it must be retained. The logic is that you might need those saved rounds later on. The "gamers" and some "tactical" guys actually have some common ground here. They both disagree with the IDPA approved reloads. They argue that the IPSC style speed load is actually faster and should be encouraged instead of having to retain the partially depleted mag in the middle of a gunfight.

CAPACITY: One thing I hear a lot of grumbling about is the 10 round limit. The most you can load is 10 in the mag and 1 in the chamber to start. Each subsequent mag can only contain 10.

When IDPA was started we were in the midst of the ridiculous Omnibus Crime Act of 1994's ten year prohibition on new manufacture of magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds. We all had mags that held more than 10 but we could only load 10 because that was all that new production pistols came with. But when sanity returned and the "Assault Weapon and Magazine Ban" portions of that law expired in 2004 IDPA kept the 10 round limit in place. The logic was that several states still have state laws limiting the capacity to 10 and to be fair to them the limit would stay at 10. The argument is that those of us who carry pistols that hold more than 10 are penalized because we are forced to reload earlier than we would in real life. And I agree. But frankly I just do not think it is as big a deal as some make it.

PROACTIVE NATURE: Finally comes the proactive nature of IDPA. During the course of fire you will often move from a known area into an area that may be brimming with bad guys. Generally in real life this would be suicidal by yourself. Military CQB room clearing is rarely done with less than FOUR people for that reason. The "gamers " have no problem with it. It is par for the course in IPSC. But the "tactical " crowd argues that it is not realistic..and I agree...to a point.

About the only reason I could see for ever doing that would be to rescue a loved one. If your child or spouse is screaming downstairs and you hear strange angry voices I doubt that many" type A" meat eater personalities would stay put while who knows what happens to our spouse or child. In that case there is a reason for going into that situation. Otherwise we would be wise to stay put and let them come to us. But sometimes there might be overriding concerns that force us to take action we would not normally take.

At this point if we decide to go extract our family members from whomever is confronting them then we are essentially in dynamic entry hostage rescue mode. If it is your house you will know the lay out better than the intruder or intruders. Here surprise and violence of action MIGHT help you survive, but any time you are trying to clear a structure , even your own, by yourself you are not on the good side of the odds. But on the positive side the proactive nature of IDPA gives some practice in dynamic movement and target discrimination. There is always a silver lining if you just look for it.

So where do I (and Suarez International) come down on these arguments?

On use of cover, there are times when it is just not going to be there to use and there will be times when it is there to use. Saying cover is always available is just as silly as saying it is never available. And proper use of cover does not mean setting up housekeeping behind the little plastic barricade and shooting at a snail's pace. Just because you are behind something now does not mean that the bad guys cannot quickly outmaneuver you and flank your position. So cover needs to be used wisely and then quickly move to a better piece of cover.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

One other thing though that the "tactical" crowd , with all their tip toeing about and bunkering up behind cover seem to not take into account. The first gunshot goes off and the element of surprise is gone. At that point dynamic movement and accurate shooting will be more help that tip toeing up to the next doorway giving them time to get set and get behind cover. After all, they probably got a bit of a clue that you were there when you shot one of them.....

And I know at least one guy in particular who has been in more than one gunfight and use of cover was not an issue in his fights because they were over very quickly and there was no cover to be used! You might know him too. His name is on the deed here! EDITORIAL NOTE( referring to Gabe Suarez as this originally appeared in the Suarez International Newsletter Sept 2008)

On the reload, this is a bone of contention with some. Some in the tactical community teach an IPSC type speed load as the default reload method for real world tactical problems. They argue that it is hands down the fastest way to get a gun fully loaded again. They say that the reload with retention or tactical reload are both too slow and too cumbersome. But IDPA mandates that any reload not from slidelock must have the mag retained. Some argue this is silly. I think it really depends on the individual circumstances.

There are some who wear more than one spare magazine on them so if they do lose one it is no big deal- they still have another full one. Hard to argue with that logic when the average gunfight is 3 to 5 rounds anyway.. The only issue is when the problem is not average and there is a limited number of mags and no immediate way of replenishing.

Think Hurricane Katrina type situations. Or maybe military type clandestine operation in foreign lands.Here if you drop a mag it is likely gone for good. While I doubt many of us reading this fall into the latter category, I know many people went about armed after Hurricane Katrina and if they had been dropping mags in the water their mag supply would soon be depleted.

Much more likely though is the "normal " guy who carries just one spare mag. If he jettisons his first and ends up having to shoot all of his second he is going to end up out of ammo fast. Especially if that is a single stack gun he carries.While this may be an unlikely scenario for the average citizen it might be a real concern for police or military guys. So I have no issues with the reload with retention. In fact the default proactive mag change that Suarez Int teaches is a reload with retention. While we do our 360 degree after action assessment we stow the mag that was in the gun and reload with a fresh mag. This gets us back up and loaded in case reinforcements for the bad guy are on their way but also retains the extra rounds in case things go from bad to worse.

So if at the match you are forced to reload with retention and do not like it just imagine the scenarios are operating post Katrina and you are doing it in 2 feet of murky water and are without any support system to replenish lost gear. This might make that reload with retention more palatable.

Now for the capacity concerns. I carry a hi cap pistol 99% of the time. And when I carry it I never download it to 11 rounds. I came to grips with it by considering it a malfunction and reloading and moving on. No one counts their rounds in real fights. They shoot until it goes click or shoot until there is no one left to shoot at . THEN they do a tac load of some type. But I have heard very few stories of civilian tac loads under fire. So I simply shoot the stage as written and unless there is a mandatory reload required I shoot until it is empty and reload. After it is all over I might tac load before I show "all clear" , but I realize the difference in training and the game so I honestly rarely do that. In fact there is a move in IDPA to get away from tac loads on the clock. I personally think that is a move in the right direction.

The truth is that like any other shooting competition, IDPA matches are going to be won by those who shoot quickly and accurately. But then again aren't most gunfights also won by those who shoot quickly and accurately? So maybe we should worry less about doctrinal issues like cover and reloads and worry about whether we can hit what we are aiming at quickly. Remember it is a shooting match. A test of marksmanship and gunhandling under time pressure in a setting roughly replicating real world encounters.

And then there are those that simply argue IDPA is not real. You know what? They are right. The bottom line though I think is not so much that the game is bad for the shooter, it is often that some shooters just do not do well at the game. Some of them argue that it was not real and use that as an excuse for poor grasp of basic defensive marksmanship and gunhandling . I am somewhat tired of hearing all the constant "IDPA is not real" and "if you try to win you'll get killed one day when you don't use cover trying to shoot the BGs fast". Of course it is not real, because the targets don't move and shoot back!!! And I darn sure don't down load my G34 to 10 rounds before I leave the house in the mornings! But I also realize IDPA is just a game. It is a game it has to have rules.

To them it seems to come down to some kind of choice between being competitive or being "tactical" Look guys, if you work on your gunhandling skills (draw/presentation,trigger control, reloads,shooting from different positions) and on moving your feet rapidly when you need to move, you certainly CAN do well at the sport of IDPA and still be "tactically correct" on the street. The faster you can accurately shoot, the better, whether it is in a game or on the street. I still shoot fast and accurately and I finish high at my local matches most of the time because I don't waste time dithering over what to do, and I shoot and handle the gun QUICKLY.

I honestly think a lot of people use "IDPA is not real"as an EXCUSE for not doing well or as an EXCUSE for not working harder to improve their skills! It almost becomes a justification for mediocrity.If you can "stink it up" and just throw out the tired old line "well, I did it RIGHT you guys are gaming it!" then there is no incentive to get better! What makes you think that while you barricaded yourself behind cover and took 15 seconds to shoot 6 shots at 3 targets 5 YARDS away,that in the REAL WORLD those bad guys didn't just flank your sorry butt and shoot you in the back of the head while you took FOREVER to shoot them? On the other hand if you can shoot each of them twice in 3 seconds they probably won't have that opportunity! What I was referring to about context. If the bad guys are close then you need to shoot fast, not give them an opportunity to out maneuver you. So hiding behind cover all day long is not always the correct tactical thing to do.

Again, not directing this at any one individual. This is directed at the "tactical community" in general. I hear these excuses so often I begin to think it is just a crutch or excuse to justify moving and shooting like a lame turtle! Yes it is a game, but so is Ultimate Fighting Championship. Do you really think Chuck Liddell will fight on the street EXACTLY like he does in the octagon? I doubt it.

If you WORK at your manipulations and gunhandling and shooting to the point it becomes second nature and you can do it "unconsciously" you WILL do well in IDPA. Will you win a National championship? Maybe not. That really depends on your ability. But you will probably do very well at your local matches and as a by product be that far ahead of the curve if it ever happens for real!

You see IDPA is not real. It is not training. It is time pressured and peer pressured gunhandling and marksmanship practice on a course not of your design, so there is some thinking under pressure involved. You know, those physical and mental skills that help win real fights.

And one other thing for those who do not participate due to fear of not doing well.

Growth can only be achieved through risk of failure.

Many are too ego invested to try new things that they may fail or have to work hard at to attain a high level of ability. If they DO something and fail,that is not a validation of their long practiced (or NOT practiced) training regimen.

So to keep from damaging their ego they avoid putting themselves in a situation with the chance of failure. But at the same time they avoid the chance to polish their skills and become BETTER. No one becomes a master of anything avoiding hard work and challenges. Some of the best learning experiences are from FAILURE. But some people will never understand that. Get out and give it a try. If you don't like it then you hopefully had an educational experience and can use that to grow your practice regimen.Just don't avoid it because someone somewhere said it was not "real".

To Train With Randy Harris, see our schedule

[Guest nraforlife]

In all reality, IF you need more than 7 rds your in the wrong part of town. That is unless the zombies are after you

[Im Neero]

Don't discount the zombie theory. If it weren't for the possibility of zombie apocalypse, you'd be hard pressed to justify carrying anything other than a j-frame in .38

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Not going to lie... I stopped reading about 4 paras into that. I'll just say stay away from zombies and out of Memphis.

[deerslayer]

Good night alive, IDPA is just a game! Very few IDPA shooters will argue that it's training for a real gunfight. And on the use of cover thing, not all shots must be taken from cover. Some shooting takes place in the open while on the move, which can't be a bad thing to practice. Do IDPA techniques teach you how to survive a gunfight? Probably not. Is learning to think while instinctively handling and shooting your carry gun at the same time a bad thing? I can't see how it is. Practicing drawing and shooting a carry gun from concealment in front of your peers while on a clock can't hurt. It's not training, but it's no more useless than some of the training available out there.

[dunndw]

IDPA is a game. IDPA is not training. However, it's my opinion that it's better training than going to the range by yourself and running through a box of ammo as fast as you can.

[Marswolf]

Unfortunately, I'm about to go into some real contact and this stuff seems as a Fantasy land. Sounds like what someone dreamed about who has never actually been there.

One reason I don't care for "trainers".

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Ok Mars, exactly which parts of the article did you have issues with? Which part was "fantasyland"?

I'm sure you are intimately aware that there has been a movement for a while in top tier SF units to bring in top ranked competition shooters (like Benny Cooley) and employ their training methodology in gunhandling and marksmanship into the SF training doctrine. Why? Because the best shooters are the best shooters PERIOD and running a gun efficiently and accurately is an obvious benefit in either a match or in the real world.

The article was the culmination of discussions between folks in the "training world" the "gun game " world and the SF world (yeah I know some of them too) some of whom have feet in all three pools . There seems to be an undercurrent of thought that makes light of the skill built through competitive shooting even though everyone from Askins and Jordan to Cirillo and even Larry Vickers and Kyle Lamb all agree that competition shooting is not a hinderence to performing well under stress, but actually improves performance under stress and those that argue that it "will get you killed" just do not know the depth of their own ignorance. Of course if the ONLY training someone gets is IDPA, then they are going to be way behind the curve and have trouble discerning contextual differences, but that is an article for anotyer time. And I do not know anyone who seriously suggests that match shooting is all you need.....

That is what the article is about. It is not directed at steely eyed gunmen like yourself. It is directed at folks who have no real background in anything and are looking at maybe participating in "gun games" to augment their own personal defense training regimen but have heard from the local gunshop commandos that it will "get them killed". I wrote the article to maybe get them to at least get out and give it a try. And I posted it here simply to give some of the less seasoned guys something to think about.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Cruel Hand Luke

[deerslayer]

@

steely eyed gunmen like yourself

[Guest nraforlife]

The old line in one of Van Dammes movies that bricks don't hit back comes to mind. But it is training and is better than putting holes in a stationary target.

[10Kilr]

Some good thoughts.

[Guest jackdog]

I can't see how participation in IDPA is gonna get you killed. I agree that this is far better than shooting a stationary target.

[Guest Grout]

:tinfoil::P

[Guest canynracer]

I am gonna do it, not for training, but for FUN!!! Just gotta get the time.

[TGO David]

I can't see how participation in IDPA is gonna get you killed. I agree that this is far better than shooting a stationary target.

Yep.

Games are fun but they can also teach bad habits, which is particularly troublesome if the participant uses the game as training. But frankly, even if they do use it as their only form of training, I suspect that the vast majority of IDPA/USPSA shooters will thereby be better "prepared" at least marginally. Especially if contrasted with the gun owner who does neither train nor game but lets his or her firearm sit and collect dust.

A person who has decided to go armed should always strive to improve their abilities through whatever means are available. If gaming is the only means available, well... it's not the best solution but for them it might be the only solution.

[molonlabetn]

Good read, thanks!

I agree that I would never approach a real situation in the same way which I would IDPA, and anyone who did would probably regret the outcome.

[BimmerFreak]

Some random thoughts and ramblings-

While I agree that gaming is just that; gaming, I do feel that any vehicle that encourages gun owners to step outside their comfort zone is a good thing.

Manipulating the controls under stress is much different than on the firing line.

If you can introduce stress in a semi-controlled environment, its much better than finding out how many things can/will go wrong when it really counts!

Every Zombie attack isnt going to be a static target, 10m out, and at your 12:00.

Shooters that do nothing but print pretty picture at 10m are going to get their feelings hurt if they are ever in a real world situation.

You CAN get good experience and "training" out of gaming if you keep a few things in mind: TRAIN AS YOU FIGHT!

-Don't pull up to the range and take your "carry" gun and gear off of your belt, and then gear up with your "gaming" gun.

I would rather see you run the gun that you normally carry.

-I realize you are working against a clock, but try and run realistic lines and use of cover. No Superman moves. No Standoff at the OK Coral engagements.

-Keep in mind (in the real world) that if you can see the target, the target can see you and is equally armed.

-Try to run at least one stage per match in your real world carry configuration.

Its much slower and much harder isnt it?

One final thought on gaming. The military does the same thing, we just have different names for it.

There is a reason why combat troops briefing an Operations Order will include: map recons, build sand tables, conduct dry runs, and practice battle drills; To take as many unknown elements out of the equation as possible.

Practice doesnt really make perfect, but in total chaos, it sure makes for a better day if you have some sort of plan going in.

[Guest db99wj]

My goal is that in a real world scenario the last thing I have to think about is running my gun.

[Guest nraforlife]

Throw some smoke, fire, screams and explosions into the mix and you can increase the scope of the training. Smoke and explosives - fireworks, fire - old drums or other items to contain/control, screams - any old tape recorder can record screams. Add some additional heartrate to the run and gun, beat the clock drill

[BimmerFreak]

Throw some smoke, fire, screams and explosions into the mix and you can increase the scope of the training. Smoke and explosives - fireworks, fire - old drums or other items to contain/control, screams - any old tape recorder can record screams. Add some additional heartrate to the run and gun, beat the clock drill

Yeah, or we could just shoot at live goats that have laser death-ray guns mounted on their horns.

[Guest abailey362]

[TGO David]

That's serious stuff too.

[Guest tcampbell]

I think of it as fun. But then again, I am a little wierd. I really don't think I will get killed just because I go and shoot IDPA. Real world scenarios are different...IDPA is a game, and a fun one at that. I would rather do that then go to the range at shoot at a stationary target. Not to mention the folks you get to meet and hang out with at the matches are pretty cool.

[Guest Mugster]

Forget the goats. Putting frogs on a skeet thrower is alot of fun.