Caught in a Antique gun dilemma

[Guest TankerHC]

I am interested in any opinions and suggestions, but think the Civil War people and especially those involved in genealogy and Civil War familial History will get where I am coming from entirely (Maybe). But all opinions and suggestions are certainly welcome.

 

Here is the situation. I have three people up in Maryland and Pa, looking for specific guns, if they find them, to contact me and if they find them have promised to call me when they do before selling them. They have called me a couple of times and one was gone before I could get to it. The guns I am looking for are all 61 Springfield's that went either to the 61st Georgia, 7th Georgia, 33rd Virginia, or 5th Maryland (Union), those are the Units my Paternal and Maternal grandparents fought with as well as lots of other relatives, or Symons Brigade, Georgia Militia which my paternal grandfather's brother fought with in the Battle of Savannah. The people who collect, buy and sell these guns are truly Nationally renowned experts, "some of"  the people museums and the NPS uses.  

 

So here is the real dilemma. I got a call last Sunday, one of the verified guns that this person has is a Springfield, but it isn't a 61, it is a 63 Springfield,Type I. And it was used and owned by a member of the 33rd, who was my grandfathers neighbor and his family is STILL my families neighbors. If you ever go to the town of Shenandoah,  as you come in to Shenandoah, the first street you see is Rinaca Drive, the entire far side of town is Rinaca's Corner, the farm on that side of town is where I spent a lot of time growing up, my mother most of her summers, and my Grandmother is (passed away) June Rinaca, her great grandfather was Andrew Rinaca who fought with the 33rd and that was his plantation and she grew up on that farm.

 

So, getting to the dilemma. I want that rifle. But the cost is about 4 times what I have to spend on a rifle like that. And other people are waiting on that Rifle to become available.

 

So I have several options. 

 

Just ignore a rifle I have been looking for, for 30 years, and let someone else have it, stop pacing the floor and moving my head like I am talking to myself (Wife is getting irritated) HEY, I'M THINKING!. 

 

I have four guns that I am thinking of putting on gunbroker at a considerable loss, and one with a loss to its value, including the 61 Springfield that I said I would never sell. 

 

In addition, this gun is only going to be held until Saturday night. If I put my guns up, then say, sell two and Saturday comes and goes, then I am out two guns (Or whatever I sell) at a loss and no Springfield.

 

I may never see another 33rd Virginia verified rifle, ever. 

 

What would you do?

Edited January 9, 2014 by TankerHC

[UncleJak]

Buy it. The tone in your post tells me how much it means to you. And like you said, you may never have the opportunity again. Sent barefoot from the hills of Tennessee

[RED333]

Tanker, if you dont buy the rifle you will kick your self for the rest of your life.

[hipower]

Tanker, if you dont buy the rifle you will kick your self for the rest of your life.

 

In the mid 80's, I was at a Bill Goodman show at the fairgrounds and ran across a dealer with 3 SS Smiths. A 2/4/6 inch 357, all near perfect. All in orginal boxes and great shape. He offered them to me for 850 bucks. Man I was sweatin' bullets. 

 

I wanted those soooo bad. But I'd just gotten laid off. Told myself that being a good person and taking care of family and bills came first.

 

So I walked away.    

 

DUMBASS!!!!

 

 

Tanker, if you can do it, and it means as much as it seems to you...go for it and don't look back. 

[CQB Elite]

Sounds like you have already made up your mind, but want us to convince you. I say buy the rifle and cherish it!

[Guest TankerHC]

Sounds like you have already made up your mind, but want us to convince you. I say buy the rifle and cherish it!

 

Almost, and yes. 

[DaveTN]

I would buy it and worry about selling the other guns later; if I needed to.

[monkeylizard]

I would buy it and worry about selling the kidney later; if I needed to.

 

FIFY!

 

Buy that gun.

[Dane]

Sounds like you need to sell the others to afford this one. I would get this one on a credit card or something and take your time unloading the others so you don't loose money or sell something you will regret selling later. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Guest TankerHC]

Sounds like you need to sell the others to afford this one. I would get this one on a credit card or something and take your time unloading the others so you don't loose money or sell something you will regret selling later. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

Dane, I thought about that, but to be truthful I loathe using a CC, 25 years ago I got myself into that CC bind, and it took me years to get out. Then there is the fact that my wife pays off any CC use before the billing cycle rolls over so it would still be coming out of pocket. 

[Guest TankerHC]

Well I debated even posting the OP, considering I am 50 years old and can make up my own mind, but in this case, need a shove. My wife really doesn't have an opinion on my guns except to say "You have been looking for that for a long time, I thought you said you would never sell it", concerning my current 61. So I am going to add this post, and wait a couple hours for responses, then either do it or not. Already took the photo's, just a matter of posting them, this is where I am at, tell me if you would still do it, or not.

 

Guns I am considering putting up on GB with a lower BIN.

 

I have two WWII 1911's, one is an Ithaca that I was going to sell to fund the the other Springfield a couple of months ago. Decided after the things I found out about the 61 Springfield that I would see how hard it would be to verify to unit and confirm parts. Turns out not hard at all, I have all of the parts that are Ithaca that are verifiable, confirmed, I know where it was shipped to, Benicia Army Depot at Army Point California in July 1944 and then shipped to the Pacific. I found that the records of the shipping of these guns to the units are available at the National Archives in Atlanta. I just asked the experts how they did it, and I did it. I have been using the National Archives for 30 years, so it was pretty easy and I will be there in the next two weeks to look at the shipping records. I was going to wait until I got to the Archives to post my findings and verified to unit would increase collectors value,, but now if I wait, too late. So it would have to go as is.

 

Been considering letting go of my Service Grade Garand, which leaves me with a rack grade, was going to see if I could verify that as well, later, at least the receiver. 

 

The 61 Springfield would have to go, it is all original, verified and verified as a Union Army 12th Corps Gun, only need to drive up to take a look and do the paperwork.

 

and one of my 1911's, one I am considering would put me in a position (With the others) to get near enough the remaining cash would not be a problem, the other one would put me over the top.

 

Now tell me, would you do all that to get the gun that belonged to a grandfathers neighbor and friend who served in the same unit along with photographs and documentation?

 

Im not going to respond, just going to watch and then when I am convinced, hopefully by Saturday morning Ill be on my way to pick it up. 

[TrickyNicky]

Damn that's tough. If it were one for one trade I'd say do it in a minute.

I'd have a hard time letting go of that Ithaca. The Springfield would be getting replaced with a more desirable one ( yes I realize they're different but close enough). The others, well for me they'd be on the block.

I still say out it in a card. Rules are made to be broken sometimes and I'd be willing to bet or at least hope that the 50 year old you is responsible enough that this won't be a sink or swim credit purchase.

You'll kick yourself over your Springfield and 1911s for a long time, but you know you have to have that rifle to "bring it home" at least once.

Good luck Tanker, this is sure a pickle.

[Dane]

Again I would go back to my origin post on the subject. Take the time to verify the guns and increase their value then unload them at the higher prices. We are talking, what, 60-90 days to add how much value? In my mind worth using a cc and maybe paying 1-2 months interest. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[vr1967]

Tanker,

 

 If I was closer, I would do my best to help fund your find! You look like you may be selling my 3 favorite things - Garands, 1911s and CW muskets!

 

 I have an 1838 dated Springfield, 1860 dated LA Co Enfield, aa 1854 Lorenz, a Gallagher, and a few others!

 

Virgil

[Guest TankerHC]

Well, just figured a way based on these posts (Which is why I posted I knew eventually there would be an idea). I just got off the phone with him.

 

As of right now, the gun is (Will be) mine. Could change, but hopefully not. I gave him 10% over the phone, on a CC. didnt really want to do it. But it is being refunded back to the card.  He is holding it. I have to get my Springfield to him to verify by Saturday. That means a trip to Pa, tonight. Once it is verified, either a buyer will have to believe that the relics they see at the Battlefield Museums are fakes, or they will have to take the paperwork at face value, because its going to have the same signatures  and stamps on it. Ill be looking at somewhere around a $4500-$5000 street retail value. (Not bad for a 1250 relic purchase). Or $20,000 if your a tourist from Japan (JK). I can get retail value in trade on the gun from him, but not cash retail. Even if it isnt at full trade it will still get me (Almost) halfway there.

 

The other three will put it over the top.

 

Afterwards I just need someone to build me a display case to hang it in my living room. 

[vr1967]

I'm good friends with an Amish cabinet/furniture maker in Ethridge if you can't find someone local to make a display case.

[Guest jrbaker90]

I would have to say buy it a buddy of my had a chance at a buddy 1861 from the battle of fort pillow and only wanted 125 for ( this was before civil war rifle took off) he offer 110 he won't take it and he walked out and he kicks himself for it. I believe if I could find a rifle my ancestor unit had I would my just about any and or all my guns to get it but thats just me good lucky to you

[DaveTN]

Now tell me, would you do all that to get the gun that belonged to a grandfathers neighbor and friend who served in the same unit along with photographs and documentation?

No. No way would I get rid of three or four working firearms for a wall hanger. But we are basing our opinions on what you said. Apparently this is something you have been wanting for many years.

Also, I see a lot of people get burned playing in the firearms antique market, and see a lot of stuff posted for sale that isn’t right. I’m certainly no expert on antiques so my concern would be if the rifle is truly worth what it’s priced at.

[peejman]

No. No way would I get rid of three or four working firearms for a wall hanger. But we are basing our opinions on what you said. Apparently this is something you have been wanting for many years.

Also, I see a lot of people get burned playing in the firearms antique market, and see a lot of stuff posted for sale that isn’t right. I’m certainly no expert on antiques so my concern would be if the rifle is truly worth what it’s priced at.

 

 

I'll agree with this.  If it's non-functional, it's not worth a whole lot to IMO. 

 

But the value determination is up to you Tanker.  If you want it, get it.  Personally, I'd accept a little short term debt and give myself a little time to recoup the money.

[Jonnin]

Something that you cannot delay buying is worth a short term loan esp at today's interest rates.  There are even some funky tricks you can play -- there are ways to take a loan out from yourself (some retirement plans, as an example)  or questionable practices(you can actually take loans out on some insurance policies, but if you miss a payment, you lose benefits... its a scam for the dumb, but if you dont miss the payments... it can work.  A fair number of people "forget" the payments -- not a good idea to do that). 

 

I dunno what sort of $$ you are talking here, rare guns being pricy I am guessing 10k or something?   The thing is, these rarely decrease in value if cared for.   You can pass it off as an investment opportunity where the purchased item serves as its own collateral, for high priced items, No, I do not have a clue how this works but if it is pricy enough, its kinda like buying a car, they allow it because if you fail to pay, they can come take the car and recover the money.... (and keeping some of what you paid into it as well)

 

if the price is lower,  a K or 2, perhaps simply rearranging some of your existing $$ around will work (maybe you can skip eating out for a month, or whatever). 

 

Regardless of the various ways to dig up the cash, I would try hard to buy it if I wanted it that badly, and suffer the consequences.  There will be some, interest payments or doing without something etc,  but if you want it...     I normally advise going debt free as much as possible but a buy it or never see it again choice is an exception in my eyes.   Just be sure that the consequences of whatever method to pay for it are not a threat to your entire net worth or something drastic, but if its just a minor aggravation, go for it!

Edited January 10, 2014 by Jonnin

[Guest TankerHC]

I would already be gone, except now the truck has to go in. in a about an hour.

 

Other than the fact that these guns do seem to keep getting more expensive as Jonin stated, they do become available, I have seen 6 in the last six months, one of them was beat all to hell, abused and had been re-barreled with an arsenal barrel, the original soldier who used it, his son AND his grandson had used it for hunting,  the gun was still going for $2900 because of where it was, Gettysburg and Antietam, that one was on the wall, cousin and I looked at it, went back the next night (not to get it but to look around) and someone had already bought it, in less than a day and a half. Others, like the one I want (Will get) you dont even get to see, those guys who deal like that deal among each other. Yes some of those guns are sold outside, but when they hear about one or come up on one, they either buy it or tell another dealer/collector and it is gone before anyone outside even knows about it. 

 

On my 61, that was just pure luck, and the fact the guy who sold it just plain didnt care.

 

On the other considerations after asking opinions, the 1911's and the Garand can easily be replaced, but I am having serious second thought's on letting the 61 go. Once it's gone, its gone, permanently, there will be no replacing it. 

 

The other thing is when family members see 1911's or Garands, its nice gun or cool gun or whatever, they like shooting. they now know I may be getting this rifle and are pretty darn excited about seeing it, Even though it wasnt in our grandfathers hands (That we will ever know of), it did belong to a neighbor and was in the same unit. 

 

Now when I get the time, if (when) I get it, I think it would be something (For me) to find if the 33rd Virginia every faced off against the 46th Pennsylvania. I do know that the Stonewall Brigade, which the 33rd was part of collided with the Union 12th Corps at Wolf Farm at Gettysburg, but the gun is a '63 Type I, and that would not have started out in Confederate hands. Later I will find out, do some more research while I am up there.

 

But you tell me, how many Civil War Historians or Civil War buffs or re-enactors or genealogists, not to mention gun collectors would want to own TWO Springfields that may have (And may be verifiable) were shooting from opposite sides during the Civil War, that are still in firing condition? I know I do, which is why I am having second thoughts on giving up the 61 Norfolk.

 

If I do end up with both of them, only three more guns and one Saber left to get. One of them I have already had in my hands, a revolver from the Union 11th Corps, the price is $25,000, so Ill never own that, a rifle from Gordons Brigade and a Carbine and Saber from the 7th Georgia Cav,  Considering men of the 7th were part of the Immortal 600, these are all just dreams of course, maybe.

 

Updates coming. 

[hipower]

WOW...just wow. That's all I can say.

 

I was talking with my brother-in-law this morning trying to tell him about all this. Even as disorganized with it as I was, he thought it was a fantastic acquisition. He's not a True Civil War buff, but is very knowledgeable on weaponry in general, and seemed exited by the story.

 

For my own little contribution...I wish we weren't so far apart; I'd really liked to have helped (?) you by taking the Remington off your hands. LOL  Is that cruel?

 

Anyway best of luck to you on this deal, and on your truck as well.

[StPatrick]

Best of luck to you, and I hope your decisions end well.  I'm honestly jealous - none of my ancestors set foot on this continent until the 1880s.