Gun Store Owner Charged for Carrying AR-15 at Texas Mall Before Heading to His Business

[DaveTN]

Open carry is not legal if the simple act of open carrying can result in an arrest for disorderly conduct. The Texas legislature (or any state where that is the case) needs to straighten that mess out.

[Jonnin]

Considering the mass shootings that have happened in just the past couple of years combined with the simple truth that most of society, apparently even in Texas, are not used to seeing people walking around with firearms...given that, the reaction of some of the people in the mall was entirely predictable (and I think, understandable).

It would be nice if seeing a law abiding citizen exercising his right to carry arms didn't cause any alarm or fear among other people but that's NOT the society we live in today and ignoring that simple fact does not do anything good for firearm owners.

 

I have ZERO problem with someone calling the cops out to check on some moron that is walking around with a rifle.  None at all.  Fine.  But I have a SERIOUS problem if said person complies with the leos, is doing nothing illegal, is not bothering anyone, and STILL they trump up a charge of creating a disturbance or something because there was no other "crime" to be found --- In my little world, that is INFRINGEMENT via harassment.  Basically the powers that be are saying "that is legal, but to discourage it, you are under arrest anyway".

Edited January 9, 2014 by Jonnin

[RobertNashville]

I have ZERO problem with someone calling the cops out to check on some moron that is walking around with a rifle.  None at all.  Fine.  But I have a SERIOUS problem if said person complies with the leos, is doing nothing illegal, is not bothering anyone, and STILL they trump up a charge of creating a disturbance or something because there was no other "crime" to be found --- In my little world, that is INFRINGEMENT via harassment.  Basically the powers that be are saying "that is legal, but to discourage it, you are under arrest anyway".

Should he have been charged? I don't know but whether he should or shouldn't have been being charged with something is not the end of the world.

 

He'll get his day in court assuming the charges aren't dropped before it even gets that far. Further, if this really is nothing but harassment on the part of police he may well have something actionable against the police/city and if so then I hope he pursues it.

 

I also suggest that we keep in mind that many of the younger LEOs are NOT civilian firearm friendly because jsut like a lot of America; they've not been raised around guns and have heard nothing but bad things about firearms and those who own them so what this guy is facing may well be exactly what all of us will have to deal with in the future.

Edited January 9, 2014 by RobertNashville

[tnguy]

Seems to me that wandering around with a weapon "ready to go" is just antisocial. If you have a sword or knife, you sheath it. If you have a handgun you holster it. If I were carrying a long gun around a public area, I'd make sure it was cased or otherwise concealed. That would go for an air rifle as much as an AR.

 

I also note that the gun was barrel-down. That is also "more ready" than barrel-up.

Edited January 9, 2014 by tnguy

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

Slung on your back with your hands full is ready to go? That is way less ready to go than a holstered hand gun. Actually I think I could pull one out of a case as quick or quicker than I could get it off my back.

[RobertNashville]

Slung on your back with your hands full is ready to go? That is way less ready to go than a holstered hand gun. Actually I think I could pull one out of a case as quick or quicker than I could get it off my back.

All the more reason to believe that not having it cased, boxed or not carrying it at all was simply an effort to tweak noses/instigate an encounter and why I don't have any significant sympathy for him as I think he got exactly what he was going after.

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

I am lost on how all yall in TN keep talking about cases? Are cases a requirement to own in Tn? I know very few people that even own one for a long gun. Most of the ones that do have it cause it came with the gun. I have 2 for hand guns that came with them. At least they came with the gun so I assume I still have them somewhere in storage as I have probably not layed eyes on them in years.

 

I would be way more surprised to see someone with a gun case than someone with a gun on there back down here.

[RobertNashville]

I am lost on how all yall in TN keep talking about cases? Are cases a requirement to own in Tn? I know very few people that even own one for a long gun. Most of the ones that do have it cause it came with the gun. I have 2 for hand guns that came with them. At least they came with the gun so I assume I still have them somewhere in storage as I have probably not layed eyes on them in years.

 

I would be way more surprised to see someone with a gun case than someone with a gun on there back down here.

Well, I am a bit lost as to why someone who lives in GA spends so much time on the Tennessee Gun Owners forum or why it matters whether or not you "would be way more surprised to see someone with a gun case than someone with a gun on there back down here" (meaning there in GA I assume)! LOL

 

I don't have cases for ALL my long guns but I I most certainly have cases that I could (and do) use for my long guns and up here, or anywhere else for that matter, if I was going to walk around in a public mall with one of my long guns (although I can't imagine any reason in the world why I would do that) it would absolutely be in one of those cases.

 

Maybe this guy was totally innocent in intent but I can't really imaging any logical reason why he would need or want to walk around a shopping mall with an AR15 (real or otherwise) carried openly on his back..I'm thinking he either had a momentary brain fart (i.e. acted without thinking or caring about the possible consequences of his actions), or that he was specifically looking for the encounter he got.

Edited January 9, 2014 by RobertNashville

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

Well, I am a bit lost as to why someone who lives in GA spends so much time on the Tennessee Gun Owners forum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dade_County,_Georgia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PLBQhUDXvM

 

In short, I live in a county geographically cut off from the rest of Ga an just outside Tn  an Al so most of my time outside of my county is spent in Tn. or Al. So by down here I mean no mans land where people live in Ga an commute to Chattanooga every day an our border is talked about on the news twice a year. As opposed to middle Tn where I dont get to much.

 

But I have other forms I hang out in if yall dont want outside opinions from people that get to see what is working an not in more than one state every day...

 

I hang out in this thread cause I dont need to be an expert in Tn law to take part. It is not about Tn.

Edited January 9, 2014 by RebelCowboySnB

[satalac]

 

I hang out in this thread cause I dont need to be an expert in Tn law to take part. It is not about Tn.

Then why keep bringing up stuff about why Tennesseans do this or that? Seriously, it just sounds like you want to argue and not participate in a rational discussion.

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

Cause The opinions on this forum about this issue are inverted to the ones in the Ga forum so something has to be causing that an I want to know.

 

An its called debate. I  could sit an talk to my brother if I wanted people to agree with me.

 

 

I think I have been very rational.

Edited January 9, 2014 by RebelCowboySnB

[2.ooohhh]

My AR and Shotgun that ride in my truck's rack do not have cases in the truck, though I do have socks that I cover them just to protect from dings when moving them. Should I have to carry one somewhere it would likely be slung over my back unless I had pre-planned reason to bring an empty case for it.(i.e. a range trip or travelling through other less than friendly states)

[tnguy]

Slung on your back with your hands full is ready to go? That is way less ready to go than a holstered hand gun. Actually I think I could pull one out of a case as quick or quicker than I could get it off my back.

 

With the barrel pointing down, he possibly didn't need  to get it off his back.

 

Not that it's about the time factor in any case. Having a weapon sheathed/holstered/cased is a show of intent. Not that I'm saying it should be illegal, just saying that when we're in a group situation, observation of group mores is prudent. Walking around with your pants off is likely to draw you some attention also.

Edited January 9, 2014 by tnguy

[RobertNashville]

My AR and Shotgun that ride in my truck's rack do not have cases in the truck, though I do have socks that I cover them just to protect from dings when moving them. Should I have to carry one somewhere it would likely be slung over my back unless I had pre-planned reason to bring an empty case for it.(i.e. a range trip or travelling through other less than friendly states)

And if you carry a long gun, especially one of those "evil assault rifles" in a shopping mall in Tennessee I can guarantee you'll get a much less pleasant reaction that this guy got (as well you should).

 

If I see some idiot walking around a mall in TN with an AR or something similar I'm going to have my drawing hand on my holstered sidearm while calling the police with my free hand; concurrently looking for a place to get the hell out of this guys sight until LEOs arrive.

[Jonnin]

I also suggest that we keep in mind that many of the younger LEOs are NOT civilian firearm friendly because jsut like a lot of America; they've not been raised around guns and have heard nothing but bad things about firearms and those who own them so what this guy is facing may well be exactly what all of us will have to deal with in the future.

 

If the leos are to be excused for injecting their personal bias into their routines, then my respect for the law and its enforcers becomes next to zero.   That is true no matter what the issue --- whether its guns or racism or anything else.   Its going to happen --  no one can go thru life without some bias --- but it can't be excused away.  Depending on circumstances,  at the very least the biased officer needs a few days of unpaid leave to meditate on his mistakes.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Jonnin

[2.ooohhh]

And if you carry a long gun, especially one of those "evil assault rifles" in a shopping mall in Tennessee I can guarantee you'll get a much less pleasant reaction that this guy got (as well you should).

 

If I see some idiot walking around a mall in TN with an AR or something similar I'm going to have my drawing hand on my holstered sidearm while calling the police with my free hand; concurrently looking for a place to get the hell out of this guys sight until LEOs arrive.

 

Oh, I can't foresee a reason I'd ever want it at the mall here, but if the mall had a gun shop inside it would certainly be much more likely. Carrying a rifle in TN is not  illegal if the rifle is unloaded(and by loaded they mean ammo in the vicinity not necessarily in the weapon) and not concealed on or about the person. 

 

 

9-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

 

(a)  It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

     (1)  Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

     (2)  By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

     (3)  At the person's:

          (A)  Place of residence;

          ( B)  Place of business; or

          (C)  Premises;

     (4)  Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

     (5)  By a person possessing a rifle or shotgun while engaged in the lawful protection of livestock from predatory animals;

- See more at: http://statutes.laws.com/tennessee/title-39/chapter-17/part-13/39-17-1308#sthash.TMrmdWl7.dpuf

 

 

 

 

That said just because you could legally carry an unloaded AR around Nashville doesn't mean that you should. Though if you read the law above carefully there are some discrete backpack cases for ARs that could well be considered "concealed on or about the person".

Edited January 9, 2014 by 2.ooohhh

[RobertNashville]

Oh, I can't foresee a reason I'd ever want it at the mall here, but if the mall had a gun shop inside it would certainly be much more likely. Carrying a rifle in TN is not  illegal if the rifle is unloaded(and by loaded they mean ammo in the vicinity not necessarily in the weapon) and not concealed on or about the person. 

 

 

9-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

 

(a)  It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

     (1)  Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

     (2)  By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

     (3)  At the person's:

          (A)  Place of residence;

          ( B)  Place of business; or

          (C)  Premises;

     (4)  Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

     (5)  By a person possessing a rifle or shotgun while engaged in the lawful protection of livestock from predatory animals;

- See more at: http://statutes.laws.com/tennessee/title-39/chapter-17/part-13/39-17-1308#sthash.TMrmdWl7.dpuf

 

 

 

 

That said just because you could legally carry an unloaded AR around Nashville doesn't mean that you should. Though if you read the law above carefully there are some discrete backpack cases for ARs that could well be considered "concealed on or about the person".

Well, I didn't say it would be illegal...but I do think it would be pretty stupid. :)

 

Although it's worth noting that in this case; the AR appeared to be loaded which is illegal under TN law.

Edited January 9, 2014 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

If the leos are to be excused for injecting their personal bias into their routines, then my respect for the law and its enforcers becomes next to zero.   That is true no matter what the issue --- whether its guns or racism or anything else.   Its going to happen --  no one can go thru life without some bias --- but it can't be excused away.  Depending on circumstances,  at the very least the biased officer needs a few days of unpaid leave to meditate on his mistakes.

I'm not (and don't think I did) say it should be excused; I'm just noting that encountering such in law enforcement is likely going to become more of the norm than the exception going forward.

[satalac]

Cause The opinions on this forum about this issue are inverted to the ones in the Ga forum so something has to be causing that an I want to know.

 

An its called debate. I  could sit an talk to my brother if I wanted people to agree with me.

 

 

I think I have been very rational.

I just don't know why people think it's a good idea to walk around with an AR-15 strapped to your body in public. It raises flags for EVERYONE, and for what purpose? Want to make a stand for guns? Take someone out to the range and introduce them to how fun and safe they can be. I've converted a lot of people by doing this. This is much more effective than "LOOK AT MY EVIL BLACK RIFLE! I'M DOING THIS LEGALLY, TRY AND TAKE MY RIGHTS!". 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my guns rights as much as the next person, but that doesn't mean I have to force my views into everyone's face. There is a way to be tactful about protecting our rights. The extreme will never accomplish anything. 

[mikegideon]

Well, I didn't say it would be illegal...but I do think it would be pretty stupid. :)

 

Although it's worth noting that in this case; the AR appeared to be loaded which is illegal under TN law.

 

Stupid used to have consequences. Now... you get a free cell phone.

[E4 No More]

I think what many are missing here is that the law cited earlier has the word "calculated" in it as in intent to cause alarm. I think the prosecutor will have a hard time proving that part of the law absent of incriminating statements from the individual. They are probably hoping that the cat will plea bargain the charge away.

[DaveS]

I just don't know why people think it's a good idea to walk around with an AR-15 strapped to your body in public. It raises flags for EVERYONE, and for what purpose? Want to make a stand for guns? Take someone out to the range and introduce them to how fun and safe they can be. I've converted a lot of people by doing this. This is much more effective than "LOOK AT MY EVIL BLACK RIFLE! I'M DOING THIS LEGALLY, TRY AND TAKE MY RIGHTS!". 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my guns rights as much as the next person, but that doesn't mean I have to force my views into everyone's face. There is a way to be tactful about protecting our rights. The extreme will never accomplish anything. 

Very well said Sir!

 

Dave

[TMF]

[font=Arial, 'sans-serif']I think what many are missing here is that the law cited earlier has the word "calculated" in it as in intent to cause alarm. I think the prosecutor will have a hard time proving that part of the law absent of incriminating statements from the individual. They are probably hoping that the cat will plea bargain the charge away.[/size][/font]

This is what I'm thinking.

[mikegideon]

It's another one of those cases where the "man" can't lose. Even if this guy get's off completely, he probably won't carry a slung AR through the mall again.

[Jonnin]

I'm not (and don't think I did) say it should be excused; I'm just noting that encountering such in law enforcement is likely going to become more of the norm than the exception going forward.

I agree.   I encounter a number of leos at the range, and they all say they are the vast minority, that most of their peers are not gun people so much as people who carry one as another tool for their job...

 

 

  I sort of read your earlier statement to mean their age and environment or something excused their opinion, but if you did not mean it that way, its all good.