So much for Ted Cruz as President

[bersaguy]

Well after reading all the posts I will add my :2cents:  and make it short and sweet.  I would vote for a Carson/West ticket or a West/Carson Ticket. Either way one thing has to take place. This time they must at all costs make 100% sure that all of the entire Military gets to vote this time as their votes were not counted in last election and Obama made sure of that. He made sure that all the Troops out of country did not get their absentee ballots in time to get them counted because had they got counted he would have lost and he knew it. The troops hate him. On the other hand all of the Troops Love West and all have the utmost respect for the man as I do. If he is on the ticket either for President or Vice President that ticket will get the military vote and my vote.....................jmho

[Oh Shoot]

Well sure it is conjecture, and speculation.  If you are right, and you may be...I don't think a conservative will ever win the Presidency again.

 

Not unless and until we go through the Big Pain that everybody will feel will be see even a Reagan again in the White House. Who was a converted uber liberal of course.

 

- OS

Edited January 7, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[kieefer]

Well after reading all the posts I will add my :2cents:  and make it short and sweet.  I would vote for a Carson/West ticket or a West/Carson Ticket. Either way one thing has to take place. This time they must at all costs make 100% sure that all of the entire Military gets to vote this time as their votes were not counted in last election and Obama made sure of that. He made sure that all the Troops out of country did not get their absentee ballots in time to get them counted because had they got counted he would have lost and he knew it. The troops hate him. On the other hand all of the Troops Love West and all have the utmost respect for the man as I do. If he is on the ticket either for President or Vice President that ticket will get the military vote and my vote.....................jmho

 

A Cruz/West or vice-versa would be my ticket but Carson would work too.  :usa:

 

http://2016dreamticket.com/index.php/results

[atlas3025]

Not unless and until we go through the Big Pain that everybody will feel will be see even a Reagan again in the White House. Who was a converted uber liberal of course.

 

- OS

 

I'd like to think you're right on that one, but historically, Nations do not often tend come to their senses and realize they have become too "progressive", then self-correct back to their traditional values.  They tend to collapse altogether, or are conquered.  Maybe the Former USSR is an exception?  I don't know that Putin is all that different than a "Premier".

[Oh Shoot]

I'd like to think you're right on that one, but historically, Nations do not often tend come to their senses and realize they have become too "progressive", then self-correct back to their traditional values.  They tend to collapse altogether, or are conquered.  Maybe the Former USSR is an exception?  I don't know that Putin is all that different than a "Premier".

 

Yep, absolutely agree that if we undergo a SHTF situation that then achieves full tilt boogie EOTWAWKI status, all bets are off for retaining or reverting to a representative republic period.

 

- OS

Edited January 7, 2014 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

Who are you going to vote for then?  No republican is suggesting we ship 12 million illegals back home...  they're ALL for amnesty is someway shape or form... Who else has a better stance on amnesty?  Cruz?  He supports a pathway to citizenship as well.

Republicans and Democrats stayed home if I remember the stats correctly; meaning that it wasn't just libertarians.

As to Rand Paul, I suspect a lot of conservatives, me for one, will not vote for someone who wants open borders and amnesty for millions of criminals.

 

[JayC]

I think the better question is how do you deal with 12-20 million illegals without violating the civil rights of American citizens?  I don't like amnesty anymore than anybody else here...  but isn't preserving and protecting rights of American citizens more important than coming up with a method to get rid of millions and millions of illegal immigrants?

 

I've yet to hear a single idea to solve this problem that doesn't violate my rights as a business owner, or a citizen.

 

I still don't understand why he went that way. I'm theoretically for fairly open borders myself but there are a whole lot of things that would have to be fixed first before that should even be considered.

 

[machinist]

Cruz's wife is a Goldman Sachs VP and was on the CFR and has ties to the very people who've put this country where it is. Carson has made pro gun control comments in the past and can't be trusted to defend the 2nd Amendment.

[RobertNashville]

Who are you going to vote for then?  No republican is suggesting we ship 12 million illegals back home...  they're ALL for amnesty is someway shape or form... Who else has a better stance on amnesty?  Cruz?  He supports a pathway to citizenship as well.

I don't know who I'll vote for yet but I do know that I won't vote for ANYONE of ANY PARTY that wants to give amnesty to 10 or 15 or 20 million criminals who broke our laws by coming here and continue to break our laws by staying here and working here and (likely in many instances) getting public (taxpayer) assistance.

 

So...I'll be looking for a candidate that is willing to truly address the problem...I don't know if there will be anyone out there or not but we don't have to ship anyone back or at least very few...did we ship them here in the first place?  I think the answer to that is NO and if they found there way here on their own then at least most of them can find their way back to wherever they came from and there are very simple ways to make them want to leave...you do that by taking away what brought them here in the first place; an open border, work and free benefits. All we need to do, at least to start with is...

 

1,  Absolutely NO public assistance of any kind to anyone who cannot PROVE they are a legitimate American citizen

 

2.  Make REALLY checking citizenship mandatory with severe penalties for non-compliance before any company of any size can hire a new employee - start arresting and perp-walking CEOs and business owners in front of the press for hiring illegals and you'll see the jobs dry up VERY quickly.

 

3. REALLY CLOSE the damn border.

 

None of the above violates anyone's rights and if we just do just those three things (most if not all of which is actually EXISTING LAW that just isn't being enforced) and I believe that about 95% of the illegal alien problem will solve itself; the remainder can be solved with ICE doing their job (for a change). If no candidate has enough balls to do 1 through 3 above then they don't qualify for my vote or to be President.

Edited January 8, 2014 by RobertNashville

[JayC]

#2 for sure violates my rights...  when did I agree as a business owner to become an agent for the federal government?  Why should I have to shoulder the cost and headache (plus possible civil and criminal liability) to do the governments job because they refuse to close the border?

 

And while we're talking about verifying citizenship how EXACTLY do you go about doing that?  Illegals have access to better forged documents than many citizens have from the government...  how exactly am I going to tell who is or isn't in this country legally?

 

The answer to that question is where civil rights start to really get violated...  and why a lot of liberty minded conservatives don't have a good answer to combat the current illegal immigrant problem.  There is no good way to combat it without further eroding the civil rights of citizens, and imposing additional costs on business owners...

 

#1 in theory is happening now...  but it's not enough...  you'd need to deny public education to children of illegal immigrants...  and even the hard core right wing people would balk at that idea.

 

I'm not sure I want #3 either...  just remember any fence/wall we build to keep people out in bad times can be used to keep people in.... 

 

The truth is there isn't a good solution to the issue at hand...  not one that would be tolerable to the American people...  It sucks, but we've dug this hole and there isn't a good way to get out.

 

I don't know who I'll vote for yet but I do know that I won't vote for ANYONE of ANY PARTY that wants to give amnesty to 10 or 15 or 20 million criminals who broke our laws by coming here and continue to break our laws by staying here and working here and (likely in many instances) getting public (taxpayer) assistance.

 

So...I'll be looking for a candidate that is willing to truly address the problem...I don't know if there will be anyone out there or not but we don't have to ship anyone back or at least very few...did we ship them here in the first place?  I think the answer to that is NO and if they found there way here on their own then at least most of them can find their way back to wherever they came from and there are very simple ways to make them want to leave...you do that by taking away what brought them here in the first place; an open border, work and free benefits. All we need to do, at least to start with is...

 

1,  Absolutely NO public assistance of any kind to anyone who cannot PROVE they are a legitimate American citizen

 

2.  Make REALLY checking citizenship mandatory with severe penalties for non-compliance before any company of any size can hire a new employee - start arresting and perp-walking CEOs and business owners in front of the press for hiring illegals and you'll see the jobs dry up VERY quickly.

 

3. REALLY CLOSE the damn border.

 

None of the above violates anyone's rights and if we just do just those three things (most if not all of which is actually EXISTING LAW that just isn't being enforced) and I believe that about 95% of the illegal alien problem will solve itself; the remainder can be solved with ICE doing their job (for a change). If no candidate has enough balls to do 1 through 3 above then they don't qualify for my vote or to be President.

 

[RobertNashville]

...working

Edited January 9, 2014 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

#2 for sure violates my rights... when did I agree as a business owner to become an agent for the federal government? Why should I have to shoulder the cost and headache (plus possible civil and criminal liability) to do the governments job because they refuse to close the border?

Are you actually a business owner and do you have employees?

If you are a business owner that has/hires employees then, based on your above statement, are you saying that you are purposely not following the existing law that requires an employer to verify legal eligibility to work in the U.S. before you hire employees??? If you are following the law please explain what “cost” you are shouldering because when I’ve hired employees I can’t think of any costs involved at all.

It’s very interesting that you raise the issue that you shouldn’t have to check citizenship of an employee because it’s actually the government’s job to close the border yet below, you make it clear that you don’t think you want a fence to close the border! :screwy:

 

#1 in theory is happening now... but it's not enough... you'd need to deny public education to children of illegal immigrants... and even the hard core right wing people would balk at that idea.

I’d love to see no public education money (meaning my tax money) spent to educate the children of illegal aliens but whether that happens or not is somewhat moot because if you do what I suggest and take away the reasons these criminals came here in the first place and stay here than they won’t stay around so their children more than likely won’t be here for us to spend money on.

 

 

I'm not sure I want #3 either... just remember any fence/wall we build to keep people out in bad times can be used to keep people in....

Actually, I didn’t say anything about a fence, I just said close the border…fence…5,000 more border agents with permission to use deadly force…the military…I don’t care how it’s done; it just needs to get done.

 

No one…and I do mean NO ONE should be allowed into this country until they have been vetted, then tracked while here and then deported if they violate their visa and/or if they don’t leave voluntarily when they are supposed to do so.

 

 

The truth is there isn't a good solution to the issue at hand... not one that would be tolerable to the American people... It sucks, but we've dug this hole and there isn't a good way to get out.

There are good solutions to the issues at hand; all it takes is enough people with the balls to do it. Whether the “American people” will tolerate it or not is immaterial…that’s why we need representatives in Congress who will do the right thing even if the public doesn’t like it.

Anyway; you asked me a question and I answered it…I will not vote for Rand Paul or any other politician of any party that is willing to give amnesty to 20 million criminals...PERIOD.

Any country that will not protect and maintain its own language, culture and borders is not a country at all and if the United States continues to coddle criminals who invade our country then it deserves to be relegated to obscurity (which is exactly what is going to happen).

[JayC]

Yes, I'm a business owner, and I'm involved in a number of service industry related businesses...  some of which are here in TN...  We follow both state and federal law to the letter...  (paying lawyers and accountants to verify we're doing everything to the letter of the law) and it's expensive.

 

First, because of state law we have to have current I-9's on each employee...  one of their documents expires, we have to get them to fill out another I-9 with updated documents (which we have to photocopy), store all of that paper, and update the tracking software - and keep in mind we have to keep all the I-9's until 1 year after they stop working for us...  To comply with just this one state law costs upwards of $6000 a year for 5 TN businesses with roughly 200 full and part time employees.  We have to do all of this to meet 'safe harbor' requirements under a 2008 state law. My family owns another separate service industry business where my sister setup the I-9 process and I don't know the exact numbers but I believe it's similar.

 

Then the state passed E-Verify requirements for all new hires (this went into effect in Jan of 2013)...  That meant that every hiring manager who processed new hires had to receive mandatory E-Verify training...  which is about half a day of labor, times 3 managers plus an accountant per business... The training alone cost us about ~$3,000 in labor... and now adds a half day of training for new managers.  Also, the new process takes an extra 15 minutes over the old process so that adds another $1000 a year or so in labor costs.  That doesn't account for the computer systems we had to put in so that the managers could do e-verify online, the phone number takes a lot longer to process...  nor the training on how to use a the Internet (yes, I know shocking but true).

 

Then there is the anti-discrimination provisions of the current I-9 regulations... Which basically says unless the documents you're handed are obviously forged you're required to accept them without question, or you can face civil penalties from the Feds for discriminating plus you open yourself up to lawsuits...  So the entire process is a joke...  The fact is, illegals have perfectly forged copies of everything they need to get hired...  and because they're not clear forgeries as a business owner you're obligated to accept those documents.  E-Verify worked for about 2 months, people were getting rejected left and right, then all of a sudden nobody was getting rejected... my guess, the forgers figured out how to game the system and started to create E-Verify proof documents.

 

The entire cost for all of this 'illegal immigration theater'?  $22-25k a year for these 5 businesses...  And if I were an illegal immigrant I'd have no trouble getting passed all of this mess and getting a job.

 

And unless an employees walks up to me and tells me directly they're here illegally, our lawyers say it's against the law for me to fire them because I perceive they're an illegal immigrant...  not only can they file a complaint with the Feds and get me fined, they can turn around and file a lawsuit against me aswell.  This also applies to applicants for jobs...

 

So business owners (who pass the cost onto their customers), get to pay for all of this security theater that does nothing to stop illegal immigrants from getting a job...  So just imagine how much it costs all the businesses in TN and around the country to comply with these laws?  Yes, I'm against the current laws and don't even want to discuss new ones.

 

Are you actually a business owner and do you have employees?

If you are a business owner that has/hires employees then, based on your above statement, are you saying that you are purposely not following the existing law that requires an employer to verify legal eligibility to work in the U.S. before you hire employees??? If you are following the law please explain what “cost” you are shouldering because when I’ve hired employees I can’t think of any costs involved at all.

It’s very interesting that you raise the issue that you shouldn’t have to check citizenship of an employee because it’s actually the government’s job to close the border yet below, you make it clear that you don’t think you want a fence to close the border! :screwy:

 

I’d love to see no public education money (meaning my tax money) spent to educate the children of illegal aliens but whether that happens or not is somewhat moot because if you do what I suggest and take away the reasons these criminals came here in the first place and stay here than they won’t stay around so their children more than likely won’t be here for us to spend money on.

 

 

Actually, I didn’t say anything about a fence, I just said close the border…fence…5,000 more border agents with permission to use deadly force…the military…I don’t care how it’s done; it just needs to get done.

 

No one…and I do mean NO ONE should be allowed into this country until they have been vetted, then tracked while here and then deported if they violate their visa and/or if they don’t leave voluntarily when they are supposed to do so.

 

 

There are good solutions to the issues at hand; all it takes is enough people with the balls to do it. Whether the “American people” will tolerate it or not is immaterial…that’s why we need representatives in Congress who will do the right thing even if the public doesn’t like it.

Anyway; you asked me a question and I answered it…I will not vote for Rand Paul or any other politician of any party that is willing to give amnesty to 20 million criminals...PERIOD.

Any country that will not protect and maintain its own language, culture and borders is not a country at all and if the United States continues to coddle criminals who invade our country then it deserves to be relegated to obscurity (which is exactly what is going to happen).

Edited January 9, 2014 by JayC

[RobertNashville]

Aside from all the other moral and financial reasons why we should get these illegals out of the country (and stop more from coming in) it seems to me that with just your costs alone you've provided many excellent reasons for why we need to get them out of the country and why no one should vote for any politician who isn't willing to do so.

Edited January 9, 2014 by RobertNashville

[No_0ne]

Not unless and until we go through the Big Pain that everybody will feel will be see even a Reagan again in the White House. Who was a converted uber liberal of course.

 

- OS

 

... and who also offered general amnesty to illegal immigrants...

[JayC]

Offer me a solution that doesn't cost me more money, doesn't raise my taxes, and doesn't require me to give up more of my civil rights... And I'll be right there with you.

 

Nobody is providing any suggestions for how to keep illegals from getting jobs here that doesn't increase costs for businesses, and doesn't further erode civil rights. 

 

We have a labor shortage...  the reason we have a labor shortage, because we allow able bodied adults to collect a paycheck from the government for sitting at home...  then we're shocked when people come here for open jobs and the free welfare we provide them and their families while they're here.  You can't solve the illegal immigrant problem without solving the welfare state problem first.... and nobody is willing to say that who is running for President.

 

Aside from all the other moral and financial reasons why we should get these illegals out of the country (and stop more from coming in) it seems to me that with just your costs alone you've provided many excellent reasons for why we need to get them out of the country and why no one should vote for any politician who isn't willing to do so.

Edited January 9, 2014 by JayC

[Jonnin]

I am sort of hoping that christie gets too entangled in this bridge incident to make a go of it.   I do not have a lot of patience for him; he has done a few things that were good and praiseworthy but just as many facepalms.  He might be a good guy to have in a major crisis,  but in general he is more left than right and prone to random acts of government.   And, he is anti gun.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Jonnin

[RobertNashville]

Offer me a solution that doesn't cost me more money, doesn't raise my taxes, and doesn't require me to give up more of my civil rights... And I'll be right there with you.

 

Nobody is providing any suggestions for how to keep illegals from getting jobs here that doesn't increase costs for businesses, and doesn't further erode civil rights. 

 

We have a labor shortage...  the reason we have a labor shortage, because we allow able bodied adults to collect a paycheck from the government for sitting at home...  then we're shocked when people come here for open jobs and the free welfare we provide them and their families while they're here.  You can't solve the illegal immigrant problem without solving the welfare state problem first.... and nobody is willing to say that who is running for President.

We have a labor shortage in this country for two primary reasons...

 

1 We have too many uneducated people in this country or people who don't have the job skills that are needed in today's job market - these people either refuse to learn new skills and/or they have the skills but won't move to where the jobs are; OR

 

2.  We have to damn many lazey ass people in this country who won't take the jobs that exist because they can get by, and sometimes MORE than get buy on all the free stuff they get from government.

Yeah...solving the illegal problem might cost some money but so be it. Problems need to be fixed and if fixing them costs money then it costs money; that's the way life works. We could easily cover the costs and/or cut taxes by billions if we stopped spending so much to support people who won't work.

 

If you are already concerned about your business' labor and administrative costs what do you think is going to happen to prices and the cost of doing business when all that cheap, illegal labor becomes legal and qualifies for all the free stuff and/or they start joining unions and start demanding the same wages that it would take to get Americans to take the jobs?

 

Those illegals who work under the table are likely not going to be willing to work under the table anymore and those that currently take real W2 jobs but at wages that many American citizens are unwilling to take because the wages aren't high enough to entice them to do so are probably going to start to demand the same level of wages that it would take to get those current American citizens to take them meaning that any way you cut it, amnesty/citizenship for these criminals is going to result in MUCH higher costs for businesses and ultimately, for consumers - we'll all pay for it one way or another.

 

I guess I don't understand why some folks (not you...just in general) are so blind to the very real threat these people pose to the United States...it's no less of a threat than 200 million Chicoms screaming across the border...it's a threat to our very existence as a country...if stopping that isn't worth spending money on then I don't can't think of anything that is. I wonder what some of those folks are going to think of our open borders when we get some Iranian terrorists inside the country who sets off a couple of suitcase nukes in Chicago or Memphis or NYC or some other major city???  I wonder if anyone then will think that maybe open borders isn't such a good idea and that it might have been worth it to spend some $$$ to fix it. :shrug:

Edited January 9, 2014 by RobertNashville

[Jonnin]

Offer me a solution that doesn't cost me more money, doesn't raise my taxes, and doesn't require me to give up more of my civil rights... And I'll be right there with you.

 

Nobody is providing any suggestions for how to keep illegals from getting jobs here that doesn't increase costs for businesses, and doesn't further erode civil rights. 

 

We have a labor shortage...  the reason we have a labor shortage, because we allow able bodied adults to collect a paycheck from the government for sitting at home...  then we're shocked when people come here for open jobs and the free welfare we provide them and their families while they're here.  You can't solve the illegal immigrant problem without solving the welfare state problem first.... and nobody is willing to say that who is running for President.

 

Well, to do it for free, the government could hire illegals (wage: one citizenship stamp)  to round up the rest of em .....

 

all kidding aside, we cant do it free.  We can do it without rights violations --- we know where they work, by and large, and enforcement CAN shut off the job supply.  Top that off: mexico is growing atm, very positive changes down there the last couple of years --- with jobs there and none here, a bit of persecution to top it off, and a lot will pack it up and go home.   Shutting off the job supply WILL make you pay higher prices though, as the cheap labor dries up and min wage is paid, prices have to increase.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Jonnin