Bad Info?

[JWKilgore]

What satalac said. I'm pretty sure no one ever wrote down what weapon I used for my test, and I took the target home with me. Later I lost it in a move. I think the instructor wrote down 97% as my score even though I don't remember any misses. 

 

I did use my first carry gun (.38 special snub) for the shooting, but I don't recommend doing that. For one, you have to shoot in 6-shot groups but a J-frame only holds 5 rounds. I had to shoot 5, then load and shoot 1. 

 

If I were to do it again I would use a .22LR because of simple economics. Fifty rounds of .22LR costs less than $5. Fifty rounds of .38 Spcl costs significantly more.

[Guest Skyline034]

Yeah the not shooting a perfect score is simply just misguided talk. There have been multiple studies relating human factor issues in firearm litigation incidents. That "100" you shoot quickly falls when you add in the element of situationally induced stress. A DA/defense attorney may argue to the fact but it is hard to challenge the science behind human physiological responses. Studies have shown that accuracy can be reduced by as much as 40% in a stress induced situation due to auditory exclusion and other human factors. That 100 quickly becomes a 60, and I for one am not willing to take a shot at the guys arm on a 60% chance and risk hitting an innocent person. Let the lawyers litigate as there is plenty of evidence to the contrary should a horrible situation ever seek you out. Center mass shots of whatever body area is presented and shoot to neutralize the threat so that you may go home at night. Sent from my iPhone using [URL=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]Tapatalk[/URL]

[satalac]

Yeah the not shooting a perfect score is simply just misguided talk. There have been multiple studies relating human factor issues in firearm litigation incidents. That "100" you shoot quickly falls when you add in the element of situationally induced stress. A DA/defense attorney may argue to the fact but it is hard to challenge the science behind human physiological responses. Studies have shown that accuracy can be reduced by as much as 40% in a stress induced situation due to auditory exclusion and other human factors. That 100 quickly becomes a 60, and I for one am not willing to take a shot at the guys arm on a 60% chance and risk hitting an innocent person. Let the lawyers litigate as there is plenty of evidence to the contrary should a horrible situation ever seek you out. Center mass shots of whatever body area is presented and shoot to neutralize the threat so that you may go home at night.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly, never shoot to wound. Shoot to neutralize. 

[JayC]

What does that have to do with getting a permit in TN for carrying in TN?  If you're worried about out of state carry have 2 different classes of permits, a simple one where you watch the videos online and take a test... and a second that requires training in person on top of the online class...  The first example should cost less than $10-15 to take, and the second since you only need a range instructor to certify you can successfully hit the broadside of a barn shouldn't cost more than $50 total.

 

And I call BS on training...  the HCP permit course shooting is so simple that virtually nobody fails it, well less than 1%...  There is no training going on in most of these permit classes, it's generous to call it anything more than organized target practice :)

 

8 hours of 'training' which the vast majority of permit courses are already fudging on to begin with is nothing but a big waste of time for working class folks trying to protect themselves...  at the very least the entire classroom/written test should be moved online where people can take it when they have time for a much lower cost.

 

JayC, what you say is true, but try and get a judge, especially out of state, to let it slide should you be charged with carrying a gun. The really sad part is a HCP course is likely the only training most will receive.

 

[JWKilgore]

The class I took had nothing to do with any form of training in how to use a firearm.  There was zero training on what to do during an actual shooting. As long as you didn't shoot yourself or anyone else and put most of your bullets on the paper you passed the "firearm proficiency" part. And anyone with any reasonable amount of common sense should be able to pass the written test even if they went in cold.

 

But the instructor did cover quite a bit of ground on when you can use a firearm (and when you can't) . About the importance or real training and proficiency. About what can happen if you shoot without knowing where the bullet is going. About what to do after a shooting. What locations were off limits to carry.  How bullets can penetrate through most walls and furniture as if they aren't there.

 

Two things he said stuck with me:

"If you don't know where you are aiming when you pull the trigger, the bullet will always land in a police evidence bag."

"If you decide to use your weapon to defend something, whatever you are defending had better be worth everything you own. Because you might have to sell everything you own to pay a defense attorney." (Think Zimmerman) A purse or a vehicle isn't worth it.

 

I know people who say they'll shoot in situations that either they would either get them arrested or dead. Things like shooting at people trespassing on their property or even people running away after stealing something. Situations that were clearly discussed in the class as being NOT a valid times to shoot.

 

As for the cost of the class, that's set by the instructor and not the state. Different places around here have different rates.

[chances R]

JayC, a lot of people may get out more than you do, carrying across state lines.  The TN HCP is one of the most reconized permits in other states.......a big deal if one carries a gun in their vehicle.  Like it or not, that is the law and the way it is.  Also there are training points in any reasonably good HCP class in TN.  They are not classes on how to be on Seal Team 6, but they do discusse the basic laws in regard to TN, and basic safety instruction which are always a good starting point.

[JayC]

So, poor and working class citizens should go unarmed so we can have gold star permits honored by other states?  The fact is our current "training requirements" do nothing to stop anybody with a pulse from getting a permit...

 

I'd be all for constitutional carry in TN, but if we're going to have a permit system it should be designed to be the least costly to the citizens who need firearms to defend themselves...  If we need a class and a written test why on earth can't it be done online for $10 instead of costing between $50 and $100 (I know there are some classes as low and $25, but most are $50 to $100)...  keep in mind it's not just the pure cost of the class, it's also the time the person has to spend in class that adds to the overall cost...  for some professionals you're talking $2000+ in real cost to get a permit under the current system.  

 

Also, if firearms training is so important, then why do we honor out of state permits where no training what so ever is required?  And since we started allowing those no training permits to carry here where is the increase in fatal shootings from those permit holders?  I'd argue there is no evidence of any noticeable increase.

 

Again, I think 99% of the useful stuff people get out of a permit class today could happen from watching some online videos and taking a simple test...  I question whether any of that is really needed to begin with... 

 

I like our gold standard permit...  it's nice when traveling...  but we could accomplish the exact same thing by creating a tiered permit system...  a basic permit that requires no range time, and just a cheap online video course and written test...  that costs no more than $100 total for the permit... and an advanced permit for people who want to travel out of state that involves the same online course, plus a "range proficiency" requirement like we have today.

 

JayC, a lot of people may get out more than you do, carrying across state lines.  The TN HCP is one of the most reconized permits in other states.......a big deal if one carries a gun in their vehicle.  Like it or not, that is the law and the way it is.  Also there are training points in any reasonably good HCP class in TN.  They are not classes on how to be on Seal Team 6, but they do discusse the basic laws in regard to TN, and basic safety instruction which are always a good starting point.

 

[chances R]

JayC, I understand where you are coming from.......and I have mixed feelings that I argue with myself.  On one hand, constitutional carry on one's property or car is one thing.  But I know a ton of people that have a HCP that really make me nervous knowing they carry in public places.  On that point, a tiered system would include a mandatory training/ range time to increase the proficiency of one that would actually carry in public.   

[luvmyberetta]

JayC, I understand where you are coming from.......and I have mixed feelings that I argue with myself.  On one hand, constitutional carry on one's property or car is one thing.  But I know a ton of people that have a HCP that really make me nervous knowing they carry in public places.  On that point, a tiered system would include a mandatory training/ range time to increase the proficiency of one that would actually carry in public.   

 

Same here. I see both sides, but I'm more nervous about some of the bad drivers on the road than I am about people carrying. I'm more likely to get run over by a douche bag texting or drinking & driving than getting shot.

[JayC]

I'm not worried about my fellow citizens with no training carrying in public...  I'm much more worried about police officers who have a ton of training yet manage to kill innocent citizens at a rate 5 times that of untrained citizens.

 

Alaska, Arizona, Vermont don't seem to have issues with constitutional concealed carry...  no increase in accidental shootings in those states...  29 states allow open carry without a permit...  and again no increase in accidental shootings...  We've allowed people to carry in TN on out of state permits for the better part of a decade without any increase in accidental shootings....

 

Where is the problem with untrained people carrying guns?  I just don't see it.

 

I understand you're nervous...  and I'm not suggesting that training isn't a good thing...  but the risk you seem to be worried about... untrained people carrying firearms just doesn't exist on paper, or if it does it's a rounding error...  You just can't use that feeling as a justification for creating all of this corporate welfare which makes it that much harder for people to protect themselves.

 

JayC, I understand where you are coming from.......and I have mixed feelings that I argue with myself.  On one hand, constitutional carry on one's property or car is one thing.  But I know a ton of people that have a HCP that really make me nervous knowing they carry in public places.  On that point, a tiered system would include a mandatory training/ range time to increase the proficiency of one that would actually carry in public.   

 

[PoofNoEyeBrows]

^{I qualified with a Sig Mosquito, and carry an XDS .45.}

[Jonnin]

Permit courses are nothing but corporate welfare for ranges and instructors who provide no value add to the process what so ever. There is no indication that the course does anything to make people more safe nor to act as a legitimate barrier to prevent undesirable persons from getting a permit.

It does on the other hand create a barrier for poor and working class law abiding citizens from getting a permit to protect themselves and their families.

 

It is a lot worse than mere back scratching corporate welfare.   It is full blown tax on a right.

[Murgatroy]

I qualified 100% with my carry gun.

 

Because that was the gun that I shot well.

 

Our instructor made a comment about our class being odd, no one was shooting anything smaller than a .380ACP.

 

You question however was already answered, you don't have to qualify with your carry.

[teecro]

I'm not worried about my fellow citizens with no training carrying in public...  I'm much more worried about police officers who have a ton of training yet manage to kill innocent citizens at a rate 5 times that of untrained citizens.

 

Alaska, Arizona, Vermont don't seem to have issues with constitutional concealed carry...  no increase in accidental shootings in those states...  29 states allow open carry without a permit...  and again no increase in accidental shootings...  We've allowed people to carry in TN on out of state permits for the better part of a decade without any increase in accidental shootings....

 

Where is the problem with untrained people carrying guns?  I just don't see it.

 

I understand you're nervous...  and I'm not suggesting that training isn't a good thing...  but the risk you seem to be worried about... untrained people carrying firearms just doesn't exist on paper, or if it does it's a rounding error...  You just can't use that feeling as a justification for creating all of this corporate welfare which makes it that much harder for people to protect themselves.

 

Got to stand right there with you JC why should an American be forced to comply with what is plain & simple "GUN CONTROL" in order to defend themselves outside the confines of their property? Training is something one should feel compelled to do in order to be more proficient not something you are required to do just to defend one's self or family....

[Q-tip]

 

 

Alaska, Arizona, Vermont don't seem to have issues with constitutional concealed carry...  no increase in accidental shootings in those states...  29 states allow open carry without a permit...  and again no increase in accidental shootings...  We've allowed people to carry in TN on out of state permits for the better part of a decade without any increase in accidental shootings....

 

 

This is the important part. There is no data whatsoever that says a training course reduces accidents. If anything, it's pretty even across the board. That means that the classes are more about making people comfortable and feel safe than it is about producing results. Feel-good arguments should be avoided in these cases, IMO.

[10-Ring]

JayC, I understand where you are coming from.......and I have mixed feelings that I argue with myself.  On one hand, constitutional carry on one's property or car is one thing.  But I know a ton of people that have a HCP that really make me nervous knowing they carry in public places.  On that point, a tiered system would include a mandatory training/ range time to increase the proficiency of one that would actually carry in public.   

 

I know people like this as well.  We probably all do.  I know one guy in particular that OCs a large revolver, carries a CC badge (which I know he has flashed at another driver in a road rage incident in the past week,) has had his HCP revoked by the state previously, and regularly carries while drinking.  This is the kind of people that give all of us a bad name.  Competent enough to pass all the "background" checks but honestly not stable enough to carry a gun responsibly.  I say Constitutional carry as well.  There is nothing to stop the buffoons from legally carrying. 

[vbob]

My instructor said might want to not shoot a perfect score, which is very easy by the way. Reasoning was if you had to use your weapon DA might ask why you didnt just shoot him in the arm, etc to disarm him since your such a crack shot and had a perfecr score on your exam.
 

my instructor said never to aim anywhere but the best location to stop the target. otherwise if you aim and shoot for arm/leg ect. the DA would ask why did you even shoot? its like a warning shot, no reason to fire unless you fear for your life and if you are in fear of your life you dont aim for the leg.

[teecro]

my instructor said never to aim anywhere but the best location to stop the target. otherwise if you aim and shoot for arm/leg ect. the DA would ask why did you even shoot? its like a warning shot, no reason to fire unless you fear for your life and if you are in fear of your life you dont aim for the leg.

 

Well why in the world would I bother to tell the DA that I purposefully aimed for a non vital location such as an arm or leg? If you so fear for your safety/life that you feel compelled to defend it you shoot for center mass of the largest target provided to you at that moment and you do not stop until you no longer fear for your safety/life. After a shooting (and pretty much any other time too) never talk to the police without legal consult it is afterall your right.

Edited January 13, 2014 by teecro

[McGarrett]

I hope the guy at the cell phone store knows more about phones than he does about carry permit law. 

[Guest boatme99]

It must be true, he sells cell phones!

[Tri-Cities Bob]

Some time ago -- maybe 10 years or more -- Tennessee used to require the gun used to qualify for the HCP to be listed on the course completion certificate and that information then appeared on the HCP, but that requirement went away at least a decade ago.  You can now qualify with any handgun and then carry any handgun.  The DOS has no idea what you used to qualify.  No record of the handgun you used in class is maintained by the school or provided to the DOS.

 

With regard to the comment that your shooting score could be used to say you should "shoot someone in the hand", the old application process (which can still be used) did require schools to submit a "class roster" to  the DOS at the completion of the class which included the actual scores for each student for both the written and shooting tests.  The new online application process only reports "pass/fail" for both the written exam and shooting portion of the class.  The school is required to maintain class records for all students, including the actual written exam and the shooting score, for three years, but I have never heard of anyone except the Tennessee Highway Patrol Officer conducting the annual course review, asking any school to provide that information.

[DaveTN]

DA’s don’t look at any of that non-sense unless you shoot and innocent person or bystander and they are looking at other criminal charges. They don’t care what gun, or ammo you used or when, where or if you qualified or even have an HCP. They need to answer the question of whether or not you were justified.

Now, all kinds of ridiculous questions can be raised in a civil action. But a lawyer asking stupid questions doesn’t make them an issue. If people worried half as much about how they drive their cars as they do gun issues; the road would be a much better place. Much more likely to find yourself in a civil or criminal action about how you drive than how you handle a gun.

Don’t use your sights, and try point instinct shooting the next time you are at the range; it may save your life.

[Omega]

DA’s don’t look at any of that non-sense unless you shoot and innocent person or bystander and they are looking at other criminal charges. They don’t care what gun, or ammo you used or when, where or if you qualified or even have an HCP. They need to answer the question of whether or not you were justified.

Now, all kinds of ridiculous questions can be raised in a civil action. But a lawyer asking stupid questions doesn’t make them an issue. If people worried half as much about how they drive their cars as they do gun issues; the road would be a much better place. Much more likely to find yourself in a civil or criminal action about how you drive than how you handle a gun.

Don’t use your sights, and try point instinct shooting the next time you are at the range; it may save your life.

When I took my class it was given by a lawyer, can't remember if he was a prosecutor or not but he gave us some good legal info to consider. First, we had the weapon we qualified with on our certificate but were not required to report our carry weapon. We were also told not to worry about shooting to wound as the justification would be the only thing LEO and prosecutors would be looking at. Also, ammunition type came up, there is no legal requirement to use any type of ammo as long as its a legal round so reloads are ok as well. Distance was also discussed, again no legal requirement there just being within reasonable fear for your life so if they are 30 yards or more and putting you or someone else's life in jeopardy then they are fair game. We were warned though that we owned that bullet until it came to rest so injuring or killing innocent bystanders would put you in legal jeopardy so distance may play a part in that instance.

As for instinctive shooting, I highly recommend training with it. Also offhand and off stance shooting as well using a range barricade such as the one we built when we went through the Viking Tactics course; you never know how or when you will be taking that shot and you don't want it to be your first time when it counts. These barricades are great and really cheap and easy to make:

Simple Barricade
http://204.12.38.168/images/vtacBarricade(abbrv).pdf

More complex version
http://204.12.38.168/images/Build-A-Portable-VTAC-Training-Barricade.pdf

[DWARREN123]

You can shoot the test with anything legal and carry anything legal in Tennessee, does not have to be the same gun.

[Mongo]

Some states do have a requirement that you qualify with any and all weapons that you intend to carry; CA is the only one that I know of as I've a friend who lives somewhere in CA and he had to show proficiency in each weapon he intended to carry under his permit.

Nevada was the same way....each gun qualified with was listed on the back of the permit(make and model).....about 2 years ago they moved to 'semi-auto' and 'revolver' qualifications only....any semi qualified you for all semi autos.